ADHD Clusters in a classroom

[Anonymous]

Amazing.

The lunatics are running the asylum.

These lists of 504 accommodations are stunning.

I haven't taught in years. I taught prior to the advent of IEPs--but that does not mean we did not have pull outs for those kids who needed it. We did have LD teachers who tested and taught. Once IEPs came in, paperwork became king. I was teaching in a DOD school at that time. We had children move in from all over the United States. I remember the LD teacher walking in my room to show me how different the IEPs could be. She was working with two children who had roughly the same LD. One came in with a one page IEP and the other had a pamphlet. These were the early years of IEP.

I think the intent of accountability is valid, but the paperwork and demands are excessive and some defy common sense.

Of course, we did not have the 504's then, but we did make reasonable accommodations when needed. That sometimes meant separating friends and/or enemies in class. Sometimes parents asked for extra work for practice at home. And, shock of shocks, sometimes we worked with kids after school --especially if they had been ill.
And, when new kids came--especially when they could not speak English--I might have encouraged a couple of kids to spend some time with them on the playground.

And, yes, sometimes a child would get a "do over."

But, this 504 thing sounds like it has become a monster with a mind of its own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They do this at my kids’ school - one class per grade in 3rd-6th is the LLIV class with all the high achievers (many go to the center but a few stay especially if they have a sibling in Gen Ed), some of the advanced math kids, and some kids on grade level. Another class has the rest of the advanced math kids (they trade rooms for math and go to the LLIV teacher, and switch with the on grade level math kids from that class) and on grade level kids. And the 3rd has most (not all but most) of the behavioral cases and the kids who are “behind.” They also have a few aides who rotate in and out throughout the day whereas the other two classes do not. It’s not a great situation and everyone tries to avoid it by pushing for advanced math.

The problem is a lot of the boys in the “behaviors” class don’t get along with each other and there is a lot of interpersonal drama and scuffles that leak out into the rest of the class, many of whom are quiet girls who are maybe ESOL, inattentive ADD, mild ASD, and/or have learning disabilities.

This is very similar to (the same as?) my kid’s elementary school. Most of the IEP/504 kids are all in the same class together in each grade. And the reason I know is that (1) parents talk and generally share strategies for negotiating 504 plans, and (2) two years ago, a teacher accidentally sent an email to the whole class parent list with the IEP/504 students identified. It was a huge privacy violation, and I don’t know if the teacher ever got in trouble for it, but it confirmed what everyone already knew— this school is clustering these kids together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They do this at my kids’ school - one class per grade in 3rd-6th is the LLIV class with all the high achievers (many go to the center but a few stay especially if they have a sibling in Gen Ed), some of the advanced math kids, and some kids on grade level. Another class has the rest of the advanced math kids (they trade rooms for math and go to the LLIV teacher, and switch with the on grade level math kids from that class) and on grade level kids. And the 3rd has most (not all but most) of the behavioral cases and the kids who are “behind.” They also have a few aides who rotate in and out throughout the day whereas the other two classes do not. It’s not a great situation and everyone tries to avoid it by pushing for advanced math.

The problem is a lot of the boys in the “behaviors” class don’t get along with each other and there is a lot of interpersonal drama and scuffles that leak out into the rest of the class, many of whom are quiet girls who are maybe ESOL, inattentive ADD, mild ASD, and/or have learning disabilities.

This is very similar to (the same as?) my kid’s elementary school. Most of the IEP/504 kids are all in the same class together in each grade. And the reason I know is that (1) parents talk and generally share strategies for negotiating 504 plans, and (2) two years ago, a teacher accidentally sent an email to the whole class parent list with the IEP/504 students identified. It was a huge privacy violation, and I don’t know if the teacher ever got in trouble for it, but it confirmed what everyone already knew— this school is clustering these kids together.

I’m a teacher and the reason for this is all those kids have the accommodation in their IEP to have academic support XX hours a week/minutes a day. So you have to have a second special education teacher in the room for those service hours. They don’t have enough money to pay for every class to have a sped teacher where then maybe 2-4 kids would be in each class, so instead they get grouped in to be up to 50% of one class with the sped teacher to support. (Legally it technically shouldn’t be above 40% but it ends up happening anyway due to staffing.)

Now last year I had Gen Ed classes with sped students AND EL students and let me tell you, that was a fiasco.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son with ADHD said, “Extra time won’t help me if I don’t know the answer.” I think extra time should be for students with documented low processing speed. That doesn’t describe all kids with ADHD.

Extra time helps kids with slower processing and also anxiety - SOMETIMES. But don’t get me started on how anxiety has also now been twisted to try to get every accommodation under the sun including ones which absolutely negative reinforce anxious patterns.

[Anonymous]

OP- why don’t you teach the class then! I’m so sick of parents putting their kids on pedestals because they have no issues. Good for you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a disaster. My kid's 504 plan stipulates that he'll get preferential seating next to high-achieving kids. Seating him next to other ADHD kids would be a nightmare.

Wait, what??? Come back to that accommodation: preferential seating next to high achieving kids.

I do not believe this. How could you enforce this without revealing protected information about another student? Let’s say you go to the school to say the 504 is not being followed because your little Pierpont has been seated next to Larlo who you think is not very bright. Are you expecting the school to prove that Larlo really is high achieving to defend themselves against your accusation of not following the 504???

Preferential seating near the teacher is an accommodation. But preferential seating near a particular student? Yeah, no.

Well, this really is not enforceable. It’s a 504 for one, which have been abused so much (case in point) that they’re functionally useless. But also, there is no legal standing for ANOTHER student to be the source of the accommodation to support a student. None. As a teacher, I would not absolutely have pushed back on this in the team meeting. As it is, I doubt many of the teachers are actually following it as it’s not ethical.

How are 504s being abused? People are faking it?

Yes: people are faking it.

Up to 40% of university students self-report as having a “disability” to the university office of disabilities (the ADA requires universities to track). This 40% is calculated AFTER discounting international students, since international student in the USA claim disabilities near zero percent of the time.

40% disabled American university students overwhelmingly indicates cheating of the system on a massive scale.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP- why don’t you teach the class then! I’m so sick of parents putting their kids on pedestals because they have no issues. Good for you!

How abou you get your child the help he needs instead of relying on other children to be his support people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP- why don’t you teach the class then! I’m so sick of parents putting their kids on pedestals because they have no issues. Good for you!

How abou you get your child the help he needs instead of relying on other children to be his support people?

Can you imagine the indignant post that same person would make if they found out their child was assigned to sit next to the new kid who didn't speak English to help keep them occupied all day?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP- why don’t you teach the class then! I’m so sick of parents putting their kids on pedestals because they have no issues. Good for you!

How abou you get your child the help he needs instead of relying on other children to be his support people?

Can you imagine the indignant post that same person would make if they found out their child was assigned to sit next to the new kid who didn't speak English to help keep them occupied all day?

There’s already been one. Maybe a few months ago.

[Anonymous]

We just moved from fcps and I will say they do cluster the IEPs in one classroom. It is very distracting not only for the rest of the class but also the students on IEPs. It creates an environment that is impossible to learn in. Since we have moved out of state my son receives pull out vs. push in services and is thriving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:504 accommodations are pretty basic. What accommodations are you referring to?

HS teacher. Here is a smattering of accommodations from this year:

1.5x on all assessments (I’m not exaggerating when I say 20% of my entire rosters have this)
Preferential seating near point of instruction (I have one period were 12 kids have this. There are not 12 seats front and center)
No penalty for late work, up to 1 month late
Teacher will contact parent when any assignment is not turned in
Student will be provided with answer keys to all classwork to check their work before submitting assignments
Student can take all assessments in an empty classroom nearby (too anxious to test around other people)
Student may have access to their phone during tests to listen to music
Teacher will review student answers on an assessment and return it to them to finish any that are still left blank or incomplete
Teacher will verify that student has recorded homework assignment in a physical planner and will notify parents daily of the assignment (whyyyyy??? Isn’t that why I spend time putting things in schoology?)
Student will have access to mentor at any point in the day when feeling anxious (not sure how this is realistic since mentor teaches classes)

I teach mostly freshmen, so the middle school is sending tons of stuff in 504s that we weed through and try to make more reasonable. Once it’s in the document though, parents largely refuse to remove it.

When I started, 504s were things like “access to food and drink” for a diabetic kid or “unlimited bathroom passes” for crohns or “change in clinic for PE” for the child with an eating disorder who didn’t want to see other bodies or “leave class 2 minutes early” for the kid with mobility challenges who didn’t need to fight crowded hallways. Easy things to set procedures for at the beginning of the year, but no extra work for me.

Now? I spend 30 minutes every day on 504 accommodations. Any assessment day means I give up my lunch and after school time for kids to finish. Every class period is multiple parent emails updating them on missed work (which they could see in sis) or upcoming assignments (visible in schoology). I have to prepare answer keys to everything ahead of time instead of just posting my smart board files after class like I used to. It’s a lot, and it’s all outside my school day.

I don’t begrudge families for trying to help their child be successful, but oftentimes it is putting all the onus for responsibility onto me instead of their child.) I worry where these kids will be after graduating. No one is going to tell mom that kid’s shift at work moved or that the paper in English 101 is due. Going from “teacher and parent manage everything” to “student is independent” isn’t a magic shift, it needs to gradually be learned.

I'm a former teacher. Because you do all of this I guarantee you get more kids put into your classes who need accomodations. I did my best to accommodate but I would not be able to facilitate all of that on my own. You should have a special ed coteacher or send them to a resource room for the testing extended time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son with ADHD said, “Extra time won’t help me if I don’t know the answer.” I think extra time should be for students with documented low processing speed. That doesn’t describe all kids with ADHD.

Extra time helps kids with slower processing and also anxiety - SOMETIMES. But don’t get me started on how anxiety has also now been twisted to try to get every accommodation under the sun including ones which absolutely negative reinforce anxious patterns.

extra time helps students because they have difficulty attending to tasks or have a of concentration or focus, too. It’s not just students who have a slow processing speed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son with ADHD said, “Extra time won’t help me if I don’t know the answer.” I think extra time should be for students with documented low processing speed. That doesn’t describe all kids with ADHD.

Extra time helps kids with slower processing and also anxiety - SOMETIMES. But don’t get me started on how anxiety has also now been twisted to try to get every accommodation under the sun including ones which absolutely negative reinforce anxious patterns.

extra time helps students because they have difficulty attending to tasks or have a of concentration or focus, too. It’s not just students who have a slow processing speed.

Where did I say “just” kids with slowing processing? I’ll wait.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher. I find it hard to believe that you know which students in your child's class has a diagnoses of ADHD. That is confidential information. You would not know if they have an IEP or 504. Are you assuming? Is your child assuming?

Kids are really open about their diagnoses and their IEPs/504s nowadays, PP.

Yep, my DD knows what everyone has and even specific issues within a diagnosis. It’s interesting how open they are.

Her class is like others describe but luckily the teacher has good classroom management and they don’t seem to really impact the other kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a disaster. My kid's 504 plan stipulates that he'll get preferential seating next to high-achieving kids. Seating him next to other ADHD kids would be a nightmare.

Wait, what??? Come back to that accommodation: preferential seating next to high achieving kids.

I do not believe this. How could you enforce this without revealing protected information about another student? Let’s say you go to the school to say the 504 is not being followed because your little Pierpont has been seated next to Larlo who you think is not very bright. Are you expecting the school to prove that Larlo really is high achieving to defend themselves against your accusation of not following the 504???

Preferential seating near the teacher is an accommodation. But preferential seating near a particular student? Yeah, no.

Well, this really is not enforceable. It’s a 504 for one, which have been abused so much (case in point) that they’re functionally useless. But also, there is no legal standing for ANOTHER student to be the source of the accommodation to support a student. None. As a teacher, I would not absolutely have pushed back on this in the team meeting. As it is, I doubt many of the teachers are actually following it as it’s not ethical.

How are 504s being abused? People are faking it?

Yes: people are faking it.

Up to 40% of university students self-report as having a “disability” to the university office of disabilities (the ADA requires universities to track). This 40% is calculated AFTER discounting international students, since international student in the USA claim disabilities near zero percent of the time.

40% disabled American university students overwhelmingly indicates cheating of the system on a massive scale.

You can’t just tell an office of disability services that you have a disability and get accommodations. There needs to be documentation. For students who think they have one but are not yet diagnosed, it’s a real barrier because neuropsychiatric testing is so expensive and there’s a waitlist. If overdiagnosis is happening, it’s well before college probably among families with means.

That list of 504 accommodations for high schoolers is crazy. The only ones I have seen at my university are 1.5x or 2x extra time on tests (depending on student), quiet environment for testing, flexibility with attendance, 1 or 2 extra days to complete out of class work, breaks during class, recording lectures, and a note taker. I hope high schools phase out things like giving an answer key and a month to turn in work before they are seniors. No way is that happening in college.