A massive income required to live the idealized american dream around here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class 50 years ago was a small ugly house with road trips to the beach as a summer vacation and sending the kids to public school.

There is nothing wrong with this. Not sure why you think everyone is entitled to private school and European travel simply for having a job.

If you want a job that pays more, you have to do something to earn that job. You have to work to achieve it. But mainly, you need to learn to live within your means. If you want to be a social worker, unless you marry rich, odds are you are not traveling to Europe every year or sending your kids to private schools. So have goals in line with what you earn. If you want to earn more, then choose a career path and advance up it so you can.

I think that misses the point, though. For example, DH and I made 110K when we had our first dc in 2012 (we were living in Vermont). I worked 80% time at a law firm, he was a resident. We each made about 55K. We had a very nice life - we paid off our student loans faster than we accrued new ones (mortgage, etc.) If we were to be in that same situation today, we'd make about 150K, and we would not have been able to afford the same things we had (a 3BR house - for 180K plus 10K cash first time homebuyer credit; a little fenced yard for the dog; 2 cars paid off (Honda/Toyota sedans); we took a lot of road trips throughout New England/Montreal; we took days off work here and there to learn to ski; our daughter was in a wonderful daycare 4 days a week with the same teacher the entire 3 years she attended.) We would still be just fine, have a nice middle class life, maybe we would rent a smaller house, or we would not have renovated our 1950s bathroom that had insulation made of wallpaper, or I would go back to work a 5th day, or we would find a home daycare. But a lot of Americans (understandably) have this feeling that things are getting worse and it's scary to them.

We moved to the area in 2007 when DH graduated law school and began work in Big Law. He made $160k then. Current Big Law starting pay is $225k. We could afford to buy our same starter townhouse at today's prices with that increased salary. I only worked briefly until we had our first child and we didn't factor my income into the purchase.

Agreed! Yes, many things cost more, but many jobs also pay more. In reality, people need to build a lifestyle they can support with their income, or find a way to make more. life is about choices, and you will be happiest if you make the ones that leave you NOT in debt all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class 50 years ago was a small ugly house with road trips to the beach as a summer vacation and sending the kids to public school.

There is nothing wrong with this. Not sure why you think everyone is entitled to private school and European travel simply for having a job.

If you want a job that pays more, you have to do something to earn that job. You have to work to achieve it. But mainly, you need to learn to live within your means. If you want to be a social worker, unless you marry rich, odds are you are not traveling to Europe every year or sending your kids to private schools. So have goals in line with what you earn. If you want to earn more, then choose a career path and advance up it so you can.

I think that misses the point, though. For example, DH and I made 110K when we had our first dc in 2012 (we were living in Vermont). I worked 80% time at a law firm, he was a resident. We each made about 55K. We had a very nice life - we paid off our student loans faster than we accrued new ones (mortgage, etc.) If we were to be in that same situation today, we'd make about 150K, and we would not have been able to afford the same things we had (a 3BR house - for 180K plus 10K cash first time homebuyer credit; a little fenced yard for the dog; 2 cars paid off (Honda/Toyota sedans); we took a lot of road trips throughout New England/Montreal; we took days off work here and there to learn to ski; our daughter was in a wonderful daycare 4 days a week with the same teacher the entire 3 years she attended.) We would still be just fine, have a nice middle class life, maybe we would rent a smaller house, or we would not have renovated our 1950s bathroom that had insulation made of wallpaper, or I would go back to work a 5th day, or we would find a home daycare. But a lot of Americans (understandably) have this feeling that things are getting worse and it's scary to them.

We moved to the area in 2007 when DH graduated law school and began work in Big Law. He made $160k then. Current Big Law starting pay is $225k. We could afford to buy our same starter townhouse at today's prices with that increased salary. I only worked briefly until we had our first child and we didn't factor my income into the purchase.

Sounds like you could have afforded more if you actually brought in income, life style choices affect your income. But you know this, why didn't you move to a more affordable area if you wanted to be a SAHM?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class 50 years ago was a small ugly house with road trips to the beach as a summer vacation and sending the kids to public school.

Except even a small ugly house in a good public school district here costs over a million bucks. Closer to 2 million to get the same commute time someone 50 years ago had.

My 1600 sq ft house in a middle to high school pyramid in FCPS that people are happy with is less than 1 million and DH and I each have less than a 30 minute commute.

Granted it took us 2 years of looking to find this house when it was merely 500K in 2011, but your definition of "good public school district" must be McLean schools, a W school, or Yorktown or the like. There are ways.

And if you don't live in the DC metro you can fix your commute problems really fast.

A quick Redfin search shows the cheapest under contract SFHs in Fairfax right now at $795,000. Most comps are in the $850-9 range. To afford a $795,000 house you'd need a HHI of $186,000, which is unaffordable to a household earning the county's median income. Google maps shows the average commute from Fairfax to DC as 80 minutes, so you're clearly misrepresenting that. And for your last point, you do realize we're on "DC urban moms and dads," right? Yes, if you go live in the middle of nowhere you can have a great commute to your job at Walmart, and if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bicycle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class 50 years ago was a small ugly house with road trips to the beach as a summer vacation and sending the kids to public school.

There is nothing wrong with this. Not sure why you think everyone is entitled to private school and European travel simply for having a job.

If you want a job that pays more, you have to do something to earn that job. You have to work to achieve it. But mainly, you need to learn to live within your means. If you want to be a social worker, unless you marry rich, odds are you are not traveling to Europe every year or sending your kids to private schools. So have goals in line with what you earn. If you want to earn more, then choose a career path and advance up it so you can.

I think that misses the point, though. For example, DH and I made 110K when we had our first dc in 2012 (we were living in Vermont). I worked 80% time at a law firm, he was a resident. We each made about 55K. We had a very nice life - we paid off our student loans faster than we accrued new ones (mortgage, etc.) If we were to be in that same situation today, we'd make about 150K, and we would not have been able to afford the same things we had (a 3BR house - for 180K plus 10K cash first time homebuyer credit; a little fenced yard for the dog; 2 cars paid off (Honda/Toyota sedans); we took a lot of road trips throughout New England/Montreal; we took days off work here and there to learn to ski; our daughter was in a wonderful daycare 4 days a week with the same teacher the entire 3 years she attended.) We would still be just fine, have a nice middle class life, maybe we would rent a smaller house, or we would not have renovated our 1950s bathroom that had insulation made of wallpaper, or I would go back to work a 5th day, or we would find a home daycare. But a lot of Americans (understandably) have this feeling that things are getting worse and it's scary to them.

We moved to the area in 2007 when DH graduated law school and began work in Big Law. He made $160k then. Current Big Law starting pay is $225k. We could afford to buy our same starter townhouse at today's prices with that increased salary. I only worked briefly until we had our first child and we didn't factor my income into the purchase.

Sounds like you could have afforded more if you actually brought in income, life style choices affect your income. But you know this, why didn't you move to a more affordable area if you wanted to be a SAHM?

The PP wasn't complaining. Was just pointing out that they could afford to live there on a single income, and the current starting income has gone up for those posts as well.

Also they could afford their life even with a SAHP. That is what people need to learn to do. You make choices and live with them.

If you need to live in a suburb that borders DC proper, then you can except to pay more. But you don't have to spend $1M to get a decent home with decent schools. I can go on zillow/redfin and find plenty of homes for $400-600K. Sure it's not a 3K sq ft newer home, but that's not MC/what entry homes are supposed to be

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class 50 years ago was a small ugly house with road trips to the beach as a summer vacation and sending the kids to public school.

Except even a small ugly house in a good public school district here costs over a million bucks. Closer to 2 million to get the same commute time someone 50 years ago had.

My 1600 sq ft house in a middle to high school pyramid in FCPS that people are happy with is less than 1 million and DH and I each have less than a 30 minute commute.

Granted it took us 2 years of looking to find this house when it was merely 500K in 2011, but your definition of "good public school district" must be McLean schools, a W school, or Yorktown or the like. There are ways.

And if you don't live in the DC metro you can fix your commute problems really fast.

A quick Redfin search shows the cheapest under contract SFHs in Fairfax right now at $795,000. Most comps are in the $850-9 range. To afford a $795,000 house you'd need a HHI of $186,000, which is unaffordable to a household earning the county's median income. Google maps shows the average commute from Fairfax to DC as 80 minutes, so you're clearly misrepresenting that. And for your last point, you do realize we're on "DC urban moms and dads," right? Yes, if you go live in the middle of nowhere you can have a great commute to your job at Walmart, and if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bicycle.

There are condos and TH in Fairfax county for less than that. So you have some choices to make if you don't want to/can't afford to pay $800K+ for a place to live.

And MoCo MD has many choices in the 300-500 range for TH and a few SFHs. So you get to decide where you live, how long your commute is, and what you spend your money on. But there are still places you can live in the DCUM area that are "affordable"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class 50 years ago was a small ugly house with road trips to the beach as a summer vacation and sending the kids to public school.

There is nothing wrong with this. Not sure why you think everyone is entitled to private school and European travel simply for having a job.

If you want a job that pays more, you have to do something to earn that job. You have to work to achieve it. But mainly, you need to learn to live within your means. If you want to be a social worker, unless you marry rich, odds are you are not traveling to Europe every year or sending your kids to private schools. So have goals in line with what you earn. If you want to earn more, then choose a career path and advance up it so you can.

I think that misses the point, though. For example, DH and I made 110K when we had our first dc in 2012 (we were living in Vermont). I worked 80% time at a law firm, he was a resident. We each made about 55K. We had a very nice life - we paid off our student loans faster than we accrued new ones (mortgage, etc.) If we were to be in that same situation today, we'd make about 150K, and we would not have been able to afford the same things we had (a 3BR house - for 180K plus 10K cash first time homebuyer credit; a little fenced yard for the dog; 2 cars paid off (Honda/Toyota sedans); we took a lot of road trips throughout New England/Montreal; we took days off work here and there to learn to ski; our daughter was in a wonderful daycare 4 days a week with the same teacher the entire 3 years she attended.) We would still be just fine, have a nice middle class life, maybe we would rent a smaller house, or we would not have renovated our 1950s bathroom that had insulation made of wallpaper, or I would go back to work a 5th day, or we would find a home daycare. But a lot of Americans (understandably) have this feeling that things are getting worse and it's scary to them.

We moved to the area in 2007 when DH graduated law school and began work in Big Law. He made $160k then. Current Big Law starting pay is $225k. We could afford to buy our same starter townhouse at today's prices with that increased salary. I only worked briefly until we had our first child and we didn't factor my income into the purchase.

Sounds like you could have afforded more if you actually brought in income, life style choices affect your income. But you know this, why didn't you move to a more affordable area if you wanted to be a SAHM?

The PP wasn't complaining. Was just pointing out that they could afford to live there on a single income, and the current starting income has gone up for those posts as well.

Also they could afford their life even with a SAHP. That is what people need to learn to do. You make choices and live with them.

If you need to live in a suburb that borders DC proper, then you can except to pay more. But you don't have to spend $1M to get a decent home with decent schools. I can go on zillow/redfin and find plenty of homes for $400-600K. Sure it's not a 3K sq ft newer home, but that's not MC/what entry homes are supposed to be

The problem with people saying "move farther out" is that it's not comparable at all. You then have to have at least 2 cars, housing is not that much cheaper, and you spend hours each day commuting. Not to mention the fact that you are then generally forced to live a much less healthy lifestyle. You must drive EVERYWHERE and your stress level is generally increased from long commutes.

Personally, we stayed in our city apartment because that's how we were happiest. Yes, it's great we can all make different choices, but why is it that our HHI is 400k and we can't afford a 3br home anywhere in NW DC despite a history of financial responsibility? Food is too expensive (and farmers aren't seeing any of the profits), housing is too expensive (thanks to shady practices and corporate greed etc), and each year my insurance company sends me a letter with a list of things they will no longer cover. But hey, I'm glad the billionaires will soon be trillionaires.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class 50 years ago was a small ugly house with road trips to the beach as a summer vacation and sending the kids to public school.

There is nothing wrong with this. Not sure why you think everyone is entitled to private school and European travel simply for having a job.

If you want a job that pays more, you have to do something to earn that job. You have to work to achieve it. But mainly, you need to learn to live within your means. If you want to be a social worker, unless you marry rich, odds are you are not traveling to Europe every year or sending your kids to private schools. So have goals in line with what you earn. If you want to earn more, then choose a career path and advance up it so you can.

I think that misses the point, though. For example, DH and I made 110K when we had our first dc in 2012 (we were living in Vermont). I worked 80% time at a law firm, he was a resident. We each made about 55K. We had a very nice life - we paid off our student loans faster than we accrued new ones (mortgage, etc.) If we were to be in that same situation today, we'd make about 150K, and we would not have been able to afford the same things we had (a 3BR house - for 180K plus 10K cash first time homebuyer credit; a little fenced yard for the dog; 2 cars paid off (Honda/Toyota sedans); we took a lot of road trips throughout New England/Montreal; we took days off work here and there to learn to ski; our daughter was in a wonderful daycare 4 days a week with the same teacher the entire 3 years she attended.) We would still be just fine, have a nice middle class life, maybe we would rent a smaller house, or we would not have renovated our 1950s bathroom that had insulation made of wallpaper, or I would go back to work a 5th day, or we would find a home daycare. But a lot of Americans (understandably) have this feeling that things are getting worse and it's scary to them.

We moved to the area in 2007 when DH graduated law school and began work in Big Law. He made $160k then. Current Big Law starting pay is $225k. We could afford to buy our same starter townhouse at today's prices with that increased salary. I only worked briefly until we had our first child and we didn't factor my income into the purchase.

Sounds like you could have afforded more if you actually brought in income, life style choices affect your income. But you know this, why didn't you move to a more affordable area if you wanted to be a SAHM?

Oh I love our area and our life. We both prefer my SAH. I was simply pointing out that a young couple today could replicate exactly what we did in the exact same location. They don’t need to move further out or into a worse area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class 50 years ago was a small ugly house with road trips to the beach as a summer vacation and sending the kids to public school.

There is nothing wrong with this. Not sure why you think everyone is entitled to private school and European travel simply for having a job.

If you want a job that pays more, you have to do something to earn that job. You have to work to achieve it. But mainly, you need to learn to live within your means. If you want to be a social worker, unless you marry rich, odds are you are not traveling to Europe every year or sending your kids to private schools. So have goals in line with what you earn. If you want to earn more, then choose a career path and advance up it so you can.

I think that misses the point, though. For example, DH and I made 110K when we had our first dc in 2012 (we were living in Vermont). I worked 80% time at a law firm, he was a resident. We each made about 55K. We had a very nice life - we paid off our student loans faster than we accrued new ones (mortgage, etc.) If we were to be in that same situation today, we'd make about 150K, and we would not have been able to afford the same things we had (a 3BR house - for 180K plus 10K cash first time homebuyer credit; a little fenced yard for the dog; 2 cars paid off (Honda/Toyota sedans); we took a lot of road trips throughout New England/Montreal; we took days off work here and there to learn to ski; our daughter was in a wonderful daycare 4 days a week with the same teacher the entire 3 years she attended.) We would still be just fine, have a nice middle class life, maybe we would rent a smaller house, or we would not have renovated our 1950s bathroom that had insulation made of wallpaper, or I would go back to work a 5th day, or we would find a home daycare. But a lot of Americans (understandably) have this feeling that things are getting worse and it's scary to them.

We moved to the area in 2007 when DH graduated law school and began work in Big Law. He made $160k then. Current Big Law starting pay is $225k. We could afford to buy our same starter townhouse at today's prices with that increased salary. I only worked briefly until we had our first child and we didn't factor my income into the purchase.

Sounds like you could have afforded more if you actually brought in income, life style choices affect your income. But you know this, why didn't you move to a more affordable area if you wanted to be a SAHM?

The PP wasn't complaining. Was just pointing out that they could afford to live there on a single income, and the current starting income has gone up for those posts as well.

Also they could afford their life even with a SAHP. That is what people need to learn to do. You make choices and live with them.

If you need to live in a suburb that borders DC proper, then you can except to pay more. But you don't have to spend $1M to get a decent home with decent schools. I can go on zillow/redfin and find plenty of homes for $400-600K. Sure it's not a 3K sq ft newer home, but that's not MC/what entry homes are supposed to be

The problem with people saying "move farther out" is that it's not comparable at all. You then have to have at least 2 cars, housing is not that much cheaper, and you spend hours each day commuting. Not to mention the fact that you are then generally forced to live a much less healthy lifestyle. You must drive EVERYWHERE and your stress level is generally increased from long commutes.

Personally, we stayed in our city apartment because that's how we were happiest. Yes, it's great we can all make different choices, but why is it that our HHI is 400k and we can't afford a 3br home anywhere in NW DC despite a history of financial responsibility? Food is too expensive (and farmers aren't seeing any of the profits), housing is too expensive (thanks to shady practices and corporate greed etc), and each year my insurance company sends me a letter with a list of things they will no longer cover. But hey, I'm glad the billionaires will soon be trillionaires.

life is always about tradeoffs and choices. I agree---living closer to work is worth it for many. The tradeoff may be you live in a smaller place, not a house but a TH/Condo. And the tradeoff may also be, when you were pre-kids, you live in a 1 bedroom place and not have a car at all if you want to live in the city. Thus allowing you to save $1000/month most likely (no car, no insurance, no gas, and no 2nd bedroom). In return, you are walking distance to many things, can take public transit most places, you are healthier because you walk more and you have a quick commute to work. If you save that $1K/month and more and live below your full income, you can save and make the choice to later move to a 3 bedroom place. But you are making the choice to live closer to work, and in return that means higher cost of living if you work in a major city.

But at HHI of 400K, you are in the top 10% of Americans, and most who make that much are living in HCOLA as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class 50 years ago was a small ugly house with road trips to the beach as a summer vacation and sending the kids to public school.

There is nothing wrong with this. Not sure why you think everyone is entitled to private school and European travel simply for having a job.

If you want a job that pays more, you have to do something to earn that job. You have to work to achieve it. But mainly, you need to learn to live within your means. If you want to be a social worker, unless you marry rich, odds are you are not traveling to Europe every year or sending your kids to private schools. So have goals in line with what you earn. If you want to earn more, then choose a career path and advance up it so you can.

I think that misses the point, though. For example, DH and I made 110K when we had our first dc in 2012 (we were living in Vermont). I worked 80% time at a law firm, he was a resident. We each made about 55K. We had a very nice life - we paid off our student loans faster than we accrued new ones (mortgage, etc.) If we were to be in that same situation today, we'd make about 150K, and we would not have been able to afford the same things we had (a 3BR house - for 180K plus 10K cash first time homebuyer credit; a little fenced yard for the dog; 2 cars paid off (Honda/Toyota sedans); we took a lot of road trips throughout New England/Montreal; we took days off work here and there to learn to ski; our daughter was in a wonderful daycare 4 days a week with the same teacher the entire 3 years she attended.) We would still be just fine, have a nice middle class life, maybe we would rent a smaller house, or we would not have renovated our 1950s bathroom that had insulation made of wallpaper, or I would go back to work a 5th day, or we would find a home daycare. But a lot of Americans (understandably) have this feeling that things are getting worse and it's scary to them.

We moved to the area in 2007 when DH graduated law school and began work in Big Law. He made $160k then. Current Big Law starting pay is $225k. We could afford to buy our same starter townhouse at today's prices with that increased salary. I only worked briefly until we had our first child and we didn't factor my income into the purchase.

Sounds like you could have afforded more if you actually brought in income, life style choices affect your income. But you know this, why didn't you move to a more affordable area if you wanted to be a SAHM?

Oh I love our area and our life. We both prefer my SAH. I was simply pointing out that a young couple today could replicate exactly what we did in the exact same location. They don’t need to move further out or into a worse area.

Agreed! It is 95% about living within a budget and Planning. If you desire a larger home, then save for it before you have kids, drive that car another 3-4 years, but continue to save your "car payment and lower insurance costs for an older car" so that you are not just spending it all on other things.
I too was a SAHP, totally by choice. We decided it was best for our family. But before I made that choice, we bought our first house and did it within a budget of only 1 income (we were making similar amounts at that point). So we largely saved the 2nd income for 4-5 years and before that we used the 2nd income to pay off all our student loans and build an emergency fund and house downpayment. But the time kids came along, we had 30% of our home paid off, cash ready to purchases the next car fully and a 12 month+ emergency fund. Had we bought a home using both incomes, it would have stretched our finances, we would have had to really change to have a SAHP.