A massive income required to live the idealized american dream around here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Owning a single family home (and all the upkeep that entails)
Sending kids to college
Saving enough so we can have a (hopefully) financially secure retirement one day
Family vacations
Two cars
Making sure parents are taken care of

The American dream is that everyone can access a middle class lifestyle.

A home of your own in a middle class community -- could be town house, or condo, or single family home depending on the cost of living and the make up of the community you live in.

State college, maybe after 2 years of community college, probably living at home.

A modest retirement

One vacation a year, probably visiting grandparents, or maybe camping.

A car, shared between the parents

Parents living with you

That's the "American Dream", and yes people are having trouble accessing it in today's economy, but you are not. You are coveting a rich lifestyle, which even the people who believe in the American Dream recognize is not accessible to everyone.

The American Dream is a single family house with a yard. Not a poorly built apartment with paper thin walls where you can smell your neighbors smoking marijuana.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Owning a single family home (and all the upkeep that entails)
Sending kids to college
Saving enough so we can have a (hopefully) financially secure retirement one day
Family vacations
Two cars
Making sure parents are taken care of

The American dream is that everyone can access a middle class lifestyle.

A home of your own in a middle class community -- could be town house, or condo, or single family home depending on the cost of living and the make up of the community you live in.

State college, maybe after 2 years of community college, probably living at home.

A modest retirement

One vacation a year, probably visiting grandparents, or maybe camping.

A car, shared between the parents

Parents living with you

That's the "American Dream", and yes people are having trouble accessing it in today's economy, but you are not. You are coveting a rich lifestyle, which even the people who believe in the American Dream recognize is not accessible to everyone.

That’s not a dream - that’s getting by.

[Anonymous]

It's really based on your lifestyle. We made $300K last year and honestly still felt stretched a lot of the time. Our cars are old, our house needs work, we definitely don't take the fancy vacations other people take, etc. And then last year one of us lost a job and for the past year our HHI has been $200K, and guess what? We actually really don't feel the loss that much. I think we were stressing out about nothing (and now we have some deep regrets about not going on those vacations, fixing up our house more, etc., because we truly can't do it now).

[Anonymous]

If you’re saving 50% then no you don’t need a mil/year gross.

[Anonymous]

We are a 320k HH and are pretty comfortable. We have everything you mentioned. Kids are young. Husband made between 350k-450k the past 11 years and recently took a lower paying job. He's great with money and investing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's really based on your lifestyle. We made $300K last year and honestly still felt stretched a lot of the time. Our cars are old, our house needs work, we definitely don't take the fancy vacations other people take, etc. And then last year one of us lost a job and for the past year our HHI has been $200K, and guess what? We actually really don't feel the loss that much. I think we were stressing out about nothing (and now we have some deep regrets about not going on those vacations, fixing up our house more, etc., because we truly can't do it now).

Please share more! What did you get rid of to get by on $200k that was in the $300k-feeling-stretched budget? I'm interested in revamping our budget a bit so I'm curious to know. Sorry about the job loss, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you compare a middle-class lifestyle today to 50 or even 25 years ago, we eat out a lot more, have a lot more technology, have better car, travel a lot more, and have bigger houses.

See e.g., The 90s Weren't that Great: https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-90s-werent-that-great

If you travel more, have fancier cars and electronics and eat out a lot more, that’s not the same comparison.

But that is what is largely happening when people say "we cannot afford it". Along with not eating out/taking lunches to school and work, we also took one vacation per year, for 2 weeks at most. It was always a driving vacation, with the popup trailer in back. We stayed in campgrounds and used the public facilities and grilled/used the very basic kitchen to cook meals. So the main cost of the trip was Gas. It would be like only spending $750-800 for your yearly vacation at most. We might get pizza or go out 1-2 times during the trip. Otherwise, we stopped at a store, got food and cooked a basic dinner.

oh and those vacations ended when the oldest kid was about 12/13, as my parents cut back even more and tried to start saving some for college. So after age 10 for me, I never got a vacation---we didn't take them. And previously it was driving, camper and campfire cooking.

Most people I hear complaining are spending much more comparably on vacations alone, way more.
Add in dining and all the entertainment extras, and it simply is not Apples to apples

PP here and I agree with you. You can’t complain that you can’t afford a middle class life and then name all the things your UMC neighbors are doing. What they mean is “I can’t afford what I want” which is not the same thing.

If OP had said you need 7 figures a year to be rich, well then yeah, I agree.

[Anonymous]

I make 90k pretax. Single parent, 1 kid. It’s not enough and it’s frustrating. I remember the days I dreamed of making this much and now it just covers necessities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I make 90k pretax. Single parent, 1 kid. It’s not enough and it’s frustrating. I remember the days I dreamed of making this much and now it just covers necessities.

I found your problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I make 90k pretax. Single parent, 1 kid. It’s not enough and it’s frustrating. I remember the days I dreamed of making this much and now it just covers necessities.

I found your problem.

Not nice. I'm a single parent with 1.5 kids. The half is going to community college in September and getting a job. Not really a kid anymore.
The problem is not being a single parent, but rather lack of personal finance skill, medical problems, or something else.
My ex shopped day and night. The minute I left him, my net worth skyrocketed.
Managing money finally, I invested myself into financial freedom. I don't work for money anymore, and that's the ultimate American Dream for me. Well, EU Dream also. Finance degree may have helped. Not sure.
No way in hell is my kid going to 4-year college right away even though I have the money. The Dream is to pay less, not more.
My kids' financial freedom is my dream. We are working on it now.
No private school for my kids. It's the private school's dream to have my kids. Specially the younger one.
No house for me. I'm a single parent and feel safe and sound in my condo building, not in a house. The few time I had to watch my sister's rottweiler in her house, I dragged the dog in the same room with me.
I'm pretty sure the wives will tell my boys what house to buy and where. They better come with money to match their Dreams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Owning a single family home (and all the upkeep that entails)
Sending kids to college
Saving enough so we can have a (hopefully) financially secure retirement one day
Family vacations
Two cars
Making sure parents are taken care of

The American dream is that everyone can access a middle class lifestyle.

A home of your own in a middle class community -- could be town house, or condo, or single family home depending on the cost of living and the make up of the community you live in.

State college, maybe after 2 years of community college, probably living at home.

A modest retirement

One vacation a year, probably visiting grandparents, or maybe camping.

A car, shared between the parents

Parents living with you

That's the "American Dream", and yes people are having trouble accessing it in today's economy, but you are not. You are coveting a rich lifestyle, which even the people who believe in the American Dream recognize is not accessible to everyone.

That’s not a dream - that’s getting by.

Depends who you ask. America is a country of strivers (lift yourself up by your bootstraps and all) which means that naturally the goalposts for achieving "the dream" change as people build wealth. But a huge percentage of the population would sleep well at night if they had the security implied by everything named above.

Remember, the classic American dream homes, Levittown white picket fence houses, were 1000 square feet, with two bedrooms and one bathroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Newsflash: living in the United States suuuuuucks for 99.9% of people. The US is only good for the ultra rich.

Garbage healthcare unless rich
Garbage education unless rich
Garbage infrastructure
Garbage safety
Garbage housing affordability
Garbage childcare

It's honestly shocking how bad the US is now for the middle class and why so many people in the US roll over and take it because they let the millionaire and billionaire class tell them everything is fine.

Um...ever read any Megan McArdle articles on how the middle class lives in Europe and how small their houses are? How little outside help they can afford to pay for? Sure they get a lot of things from their taxes, but the average American who makes claims like you would be giving up many square feet and any housekeeping/lawn service they pay for to get it. Plus some other things. The European social safety net costs, and it costs the middle class there as well as the rich.

And yet, I seriously doubt they would give up their lifestyle and health care to join our gun addled society.

Not saying they would. Just saying everyone who thinks we should tax the rich and become Europe is seriously deluding themselves that they wouldn't miss many, many niceties they currently take for granted. I think 99.9% of the population would be shocked how much they would have to pay in taxes to afford a European safety net. Many people who are fans of the European way would probably happily have a 900 square foot house with 1 car, no dryer, and no AC (as a PP mentioned) for free daycare with excellent chef cooked meals for their kids. But let's not kid ourselves - trade-offs would be made.

[Anonymous]

It all depends. I recently decided to step down from my very stressful job. So we went from making 7 figures to living on $250k/year. And you know what, it's ok. We are fine. The kids are fine. They now go to a public school. I cook, so we no longer constantly order in or throw away food because we did not plan well. We don't throw money at problems, instead, we do a lot ourselves. I could not be happier. The kids 529s should continue to grow. We will re-evaluate college options when time comes. So far, so good. We did move away from the DMV to have a fresh start. Unfortunately, we are still in VHCOL area (moved closer to family), but the attitude is more relaxed where we are now. My kids won't inherit the millions that they otherwise would have, had I stayed in my toxic job, but I hope that they will be happy with the memories of an involved and happy mother.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Newsflash: living in the United States suuuuuucks for 99.9% of people. The US is only good for the ultra rich.

Garbage healthcare unless rich
Garbage education unless rich
Garbage infrastructure
Garbage safety
Garbage housing affordability
Garbage childcare

It's honestly shocking how bad the US is now for the middle class and why so many people in the US roll over and take it because they let the millionaire and billionaire class tell them everything is fine.

Um...ever read any Megan McArdle articles on how the middle class lives in Europe and how small their houses are? How little outside help they can afford to pay for? Sure they get a lot of things from their taxes, but the average American who makes claims like you would be giving up many square feet and any housekeeping/lawn service they pay for to get it. Plus some other things. The European social safety net costs, and it costs the middle class there as well as the rich.

And yet, I seriously doubt they would give up their lifestyle and health care to join our gun addled society.

Not saying they would. Just saying everyone who thinks we should tax the rich and become Europe is seriously deluding themselves that they wouldn't miss many, many niceties they currently take for granted. I think 99.9% of the population would be shocked how much they would have to pay in taxes to afford a European safety net. Many people who are fans of the European way would probably happily have a 900 square foot house with 1 car, no dryer, and no AC (as a PP mentioned) for free daycare with excellent chef cooked meals for their kids. But let's not kid ourselves - trade-offs would be made.

Yup! UK tax rates are up to 45% on income over 125 GBP. Their residential property taxes are significantly higher than(and you thought NJ property taxes were high, go check out the UK18-28% of the property value!!!).

Earn more than 37K GBPin dividends/interest and you are paying 34%+.

And they have a massive death tax/estate tax that starts at a low level.

So I still prefer the USA any day. However, I would like to see universal healthcare---and by that I mean, let's get rid of private insurance companies and put together a system where the negotiated rates are standard for each COLA. So everyone in Zip code (XYZAB) has a negotiated rate of $X for a regular doctor visit, $Y for a standard mammogram, etc. As long as you pay cash for the service that day/agree to pay you get the negotiated rate. None of this UHC pays out $200 for a mammogram, but BCBS pays $250 and Kaiser pays $175. Eliminate the middle man, give everyone the powers of "negotiate rates with a large group" and price insurance accordingly---either tax us or allow us to pay for it thru something like the ACA does now, so we can select a bronze, silver or gold plan---so let our taxes pay for Bronze, and allow us to supplement with silver/gold and or purchase private coverage if we deem necessary (much like happens in socialized medicine where people buy private coverage). Costs would be so much less if we eliminated the private insurance companies.

But yes, the American dream of a 4 bedroom 2.5 bathroom home does not align with most of European standards---they tend to live at a much lower level than we expect. And they pay a ton in taxes for the safety nets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I make 90k pretax. Single parent, 1 kid. It’s not enough and it’s frustrating. I remember the days I dreamed of making this much and now it just covers necessities.

I found your problem.

A man is not a plan. Look how many women stay with their loser husbands because they can’t support themselves. That’s sad.