Hey is it good diplomacy to demand the Panama Canal back?

[Anonymous]

President José Raúl Mulino added that Panama's sovereignty and independence were non-negotiable. BBC

The good news is that we ain’t negotiating. We can just take it and the Panamanians can go back to banana farming and money laundering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What triggered Trump to go after the Panama Canal?

The rise of Chinese influence in Latin America generally and on the Panama Canal specifically has been a focus of the State Department since Trump's last term. Trump is famously a China hawk and this is a continuation of that. Framing this as being between Panama and the US is basically Chinese disinformation. This is about containing China's aggressive takeover of Latin America.

China essentially owns and runs the Canal. Their belt and road initiative in the western hemisphere should be countered by the US. Trump is absolutely right on this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:President José Raúl Mulino added that Panama's sovereignty and independence were non-negotiable. BBC

The good news is that we ain’t negotiating. We can just take it and the Panamanians can go back to banana farming and money laundering.

Gross

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:President José Raúl Mulino added that Panama's sovereignty and independence were non-negotiable. BBC

The good news is that we ain’t negotiating. We can just take it and the Panamanians can go back to banana farming and money laundering.

Gross

Right? You crazy fks. No we can’t just do that. As badly as you want to live in a Christofascist, authortarian state that does that kind of thing, no.

Also, now Trump has again claimed he wants to “buy Greenland”. Even though they said no 15 times already. 4 years of this bullsht? Of absurd claims and Will decrees that make us look stupid on the world stage?

[Anonymous]

Yes.

We (the US) needs to take drastic action to stem the flow of fentanyl into the US. The Panama Canal is one major travel route for the fentanyl trade. You might have heard of the opioid crisis. It’s kind of a problem in the US, OP.

Also, the US built the Panama Canal and controlled it until….1999.

[Anonymous]

The Chinese fought a war to stop foreign drug trafficking and invaders. No reason we cannot do the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Chinese fought a war to stop foreign drug trafficking and invaders. No reason we cannot do the same.

The Chinese are the ones transporting fentanyl into the US via the Panama Canal. That’s not a coincidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:President José Raúl Mulino added that Panama's sovereignty and independence were non-negotiable. BBC

The good news is that we ain’t negotiating. We can just take it and the Panamanians can go back to banana farming and money laundering.

So much for the “no wars” gibberish you guys were pushing. We always knew you were lying.

[Anonymous]

Central American countries are largely failed states. More powerful and coherent actors like cartels, gangs and the PRC take advantage of that to target the U.S.

We can take action as needed against those failed states. It is like an abandoned building taken over by gangs and messing up the neighborhood. You need to take action even if the landlord objects.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Oh so, it’s 4d chess when Trump send a bunch of angry messages to random allies? And it helps our position on the world stage? I’m just hoping someone can confirm that. Thanks!

Panama was the very first country in Latin America to sign on to the Belt and Road Initiative. That's not "ally" behavior. Panama can't lay out a red carpet for an adversary, worsen our economy, and then claim they are still an ally.

Trump immediately notices this stuff

Libs are still trying to figure out what gender they are.

The first posters on this thread have probably never even heard of the Belt and Road initiative. They think diplomacy is about saying nice things so other countries will like us. It's not. It's about advancing American interests.

Can you just give a straight answer? Do you think it’s presidential, or even intelligent, and good for our international relations, for Trump to yell at Panama on Twitter? And yell at Canada calling it America’s 51st state (as if we are to annex it). Offer to buy Greenland? Or to yell at BRIC countries?

What do most people do when you yell at them? I’m just really curious if you actually think it strengthens our standing when Trump does this? You really think it does anything beneficial? Yelling and making absurd, childish hissy fits? We can’t just “take back the canal” as he said. Canada is not our 51st state. Can’t you see this talk is harmful?

I haven't been equivocal. It's really strange to me that you find my position difficult to discern. I'll say it very simply: I support President Trump’s efforts to bring the dynamics of the Panama Canal back to a point where China doesn't receive an advantage over the US. Is that clear? This thread is about the substance of the issue, whether it is good diplomacy to assert our interests in the Panama Canal. Yes. Yes it is.

Specifically, you think it’s okay for him to yell at and threaten to “take back” the canal? And you find nothing wrong with that threat, even though it’s impossible and we can’t at all do that? You think that’s intelligent diplomacy?

Dear God, man. I've said yes endlessly here. Yes, yes.

Also it's not impossible to invade Panama. We have a recent history of doing so.

So rather than bring up the issue in normal bilateral trade talks, or even before considering economic sanctions, you think it’s perfectly fine to threaten to invade Panama and take back “take back” the canal. This approach has as much brains and credibility as Dimity Medvedev drunkenly threatening to nuke Europe.

This is what I find so comical. That MAGA folks are so clueless about international hard and soft power, that they can’t see that the 3 international
relations gaffes in recent weeks, where Trump basically Twitter yells at countries is what qualifies as diplomacy. Like they’re so fking stupid they think the world will quake, and ties won’t be frayed, when Trump makes outlandish nonsense claims like forcefully taking back the Panama Canal. They think it projects “strength”. Meanwhile, it’s just annoying static. You people are such absolute 5th grade level comprehension fkwits you can’t see that the emperor has no clothes. It’s beligerent bullsht.

It's called realpolitik. MAGA didn't invent it.

Also. You spend a lot of time hurling insults rather than debating substance. It surprises me that you don't find Trump more compelling since you favor his insulting communication style.

I believe in what another Republican once said: “speak softly but carry a big stick”. Not “make wild-ass threats on Twitter before you’ve consulted the State Department or DoD”. Do you see the difference?

Well, I believe in reading the situation and acting accordingly. Trump gets a lot done with a few simple tweets. Not everything needs to be a drawn out affair. Maybe Panama will remember what it was like to have their President captured and flown to the US for a prison term, and decide to make some needed changes.

What has he accomplished via tweet exactly? Please provide examples. Also, if it’s such a great technique, why don’t you apply it at work and see how much you accomplish?

Didn't he just tweet this hours ago? It's not reasonable to expect progress on an issue this complex in a few hours.

True, so give an example of other things he has accomplished with a simple tweet.

So far, all that has happened is that he has put Panama on notice. It's totally insane and unreasonable to think that he'd make Panama renegotiate their deals with China overnight on a Saturday. So we can't possibly know the impact of this yet.

“Put them on notice” that he would invade to “take the canal back” and you think that’s stable genius discourse?

Can you cite where he threatened invasion? I haven't seen that.

He demanded it be returned to us “without question” if the demands in his a little Twitter tirade aren’t met.

You do the math.

He is so fking unpresidential and embarrassing and you folks think this is projecting “strength”. It’s projecting idiocy.

No, he made an if/then statement. Here is the direct quote:

"If the principles, both moral and legal, of this magnanimous gesture of giving are not followed, then we will demand that the Panama Canal be returned to us, in full, and without question."

So, IF Panama does not start following the treaty, THEN the US will demand the return of the Panama Canal. Note, the *return.* It was ours and we gave it to them under a legally binding agreement, which they have violated. This seems quite reasonable and measured.

Not really, because if that is an issue, normal leaders deal with it in other ways.

I tried to find news info about the alleged violations and came up with nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Central American countries are largely failed states. More powerful and coherent actors like cartels, gangs and the PRC take advantage of that to target the U.S.

We can take action as needed against those failed states. It is like an abandoned building taken over by gangs and messing up the neighborhood. You need to take action even if the landlord objects.

US intervention in states south of the border has historically led to ill consequences some of which include said failed stated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And that Canada is actually the 51st state like Trump has been saying? Just curious if that is normal stuff and helps with international relations? I know half of America reads at a 5th grade level, but I’d really like those who voted for him to let me know if it’s helpful to talk that way. Thanks!

Just to clarify - 54% read at sixth grade level or below - so highly likely that half are reading at lower than 5th grade level.

I think there should be political literacy tests (verbal OK for those who can’t read) before being allowed to vote.

But mandatory voting for those who can’t pass political literacy test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Central American countries are largely failed states. More powerful and coherent actors like cartels, gangs and the PRC take advantage of that to target the U.S.

We can take action as needed against those failed states. It is like an abandoned building taken over by gangs and messing up the neighborhood. You need to take action even if the landlord objects.

US intervention in states south of the border has historically led to ill consequences some of which include said failed stated.

This time will be different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes.

We (the US) needs to take drastic action to stem the flow of fentanyl into the US. The Panama Canal is one major travel route for the fentanyl trade. You might have heard of the opioid crisis. It’s kind of a problem in the US, OP.

Also, the US built the Panama Canal and controlled it until….1999.

So Trump is going to get them to cut transit fees to get costs down for the fentanyl traders? Makes perfect sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it is good diplomacy. The US built and paid for the Panama Canal. The issue Trump is raising is about China-controlled ports there, and I don't see why the US should have to put up with China imposing extortionate fees on access to a canal we built. It's actually very bad foreign policy to ignore our adversaries and cede dominance to them.

We also have the issue of China controlling ports in the US. This is behind Trump supporting the union over automation.

Yeah. Interestingly, the people on the thread expressing anger about Trump's position haven’t explained why they are in favor of China's dominance in that region.

Easy answer.

Because modern American democrats are actually communists-in-hiding, and being communists, they will aid and abet other communists - excuse me - fraternal socialist allies - around the world.

If something is good for the Chinese Communist Party, then it’s good with American democrats, too.