Foreign language

[Anonymous]

I'm the poster who outlined Australian high school graduation requirements above, and referred to the US as too prescriptive. If our education leaders were bold, we could find a middle path, which honors a liberal arts education, avoids being too pre-professional, and also allows the student to grow and learn in their actual areas of interest.

I wish our high schools captured the spirit of the value of being a global citizen without forcing it in the specific form of a foreign language—and that admission to college supported that nuanced view.

Consider the very excellent approach by Williams, regarding it's graduation requirement:

"And while Williams has no formal language requirement, we do require that all students explore diversity by taking at least one course that examines how groups, cultures, and societies interact with, and challenge, one another."

Wouldn't this better serve students and society?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would really like to believe that in this day an age a foreign language class is no longer considered a “core class”. Especially for kids applying to STEM or business majors. Its really is an outdated concept with the easy availability of translation apps [especialy at our HS where the quality of teaching is abysmal its as much of a waset of time as PE class]. But Im not sure how many AOs are on board with that yet.

Wow, this is an answer heavy with bias. World language is outdated, why not also English classes, too, since we can all just watch videos and use ChatGpt to write our papers. Might as well also scrap social studies, because one can use google to find out history and georgraphy facts.

All hail the mighty STEM!

You may call this bias, but I call it reality of living in 2024 and entering the workforce in 2028 or later (after 4 years of college). Foreign language is a great elective and its wonderful to be able to order off a menu in French, but I do not think it should be considered a core high school class for purposes of college admissions (especially for STEM majors). The reality is that even after 6-7 years of middle and high school foreign language instruction in the United States, most students can barely order off a menu- but even if the instruction were better, it is not an essential skill in this modern era. One-two years of computer science (also an elective, by the way) is at least an equally important foundational skill for the majority of jobs these students are going to be facing when they leave college. Its just reality.

How quaint! We spent a month in Japan last year and most of our ordering was using google translate to read the menu and pointing a finger at the item accompanied by a smile and thank you of course. One of our companions knew japanese but it was a PIA asking them to step in for everything. Worked well for us.

DP. What a weird comment. You seem to be arguing with PP over their experience, and the "proof" you use doesn't relate to what they said because yours is a very different experience. What a limited perspective. Can't believe you felt the need to weigh in on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would really like to believe that in this day an age a foreign language class is no longer considered a “core class”. Especially for kids applying to STEM or business majors. Its really is an outdated concept with the easy availability of translation apps [especialy at our HS where the quality of teaching is abysmal its as much of a waset of time as PE class]. But Im not sure how many AOs are on board with that yet.

Wow, this is an answer heavy with bias. World language is outdated, why not also English classes, too, since we can all just watch videos and use ChatGpt to write our papers. Might as well also scrap social studies, because one can use google to find out history and georgraphy facts.

All hail the mighty STEM!

You may call this bias, but I call it reality of living in 2024 and entering the workforce in 2028 or later (after 4 years of college). Foreign language is a great elective and its wonderful to be able to order off a menu in French, but I do not think it should be considered a core high school class for purposes of college admissions (especially for STEM majors). The reality is that even after 6-7 years of middle and high school foreign language instruction in the United States, most students can barely order off a menu- but even if the instruction were better, it is not an essential skill in this modern era. One-two years of computer science (also an elective, by the way) is at least an equally important foundational skill for the majority of jobs these students are going to be facing when they leave college. Its just reality.

How quaint! We spent a month in Japan last year and most of our ordering was using google translate to read the menu and pointing a finger at the item accompanied by a smile and thank you of course. One of our companions knew japanese but it was a PIA asking them to step in for everything. Worked well for us.

Your iPhone could calculate the tip in the restaurants, too (actually many restaurant bills have tip right on it nowadays) so I guess you don’t need math classes either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't understand the anti-language folks. I can't remember a lick of algebra or chemistry and thought they both were a waste of time. What's the difference?

+1
My kids are good at the humanities and languages. Both took their FL all four years of high school, through AP and one is now minoring in that language in college. On the flip side, neither took calculus in high school or college because they had no need to. Zero problems with great college acceptances. I would just go with the student’s strengths and stop worrying about what people tell you you *have* to do.

Scratching my head here.. The so called 'anti-language' folks are making the same point. Study what you want. Don't stuff language down our throats if we don't want it. Colleges shouldn't care about this. If language is your 'jam', by all means, learn two languages all 4 years of HS, but don't force someone who couldn't care less about language to sit through it for 4 years.

Then don't force my kid who couldn't care less about STEM to take math every year until HS graduation. He will end his HS career having been forced through infinitely more mathematics than most adults will ever need in their entire lives. And it won't have taught him anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would really like to believe that in this day an age a foreign language class is no longer considered a “core class”. Especially for kids applying to STEM or business majors. Its really is an outdated concept with the easy availability of translation apps [especialy at our HS where the quality of teaching is abysmal its as much of a waset of time as PE class]. But Im not sure how many AOs are on board with that yet.

Wow, this is an answer heavy with bias. World language is outdated, why not also English classes, too, since we can all just watch videos and use ChatGpt to write our papers. Might as well also scrap social studies, because one can use google to find out history and georgraphy facts.

All hail the mighty STEM!

You may call this bias, but I call it reality of living in 2024 and entering the workforce in 2028 or later (after 4 years of college). Foreign language is a great elective and its wonderful to be able to order off a menu in French, but I do not think it should be considered a core high school class for purposes of college admissions (especially for STEM majors). The reality is that even after 6-7 years of middle and high school foreign language instruction in the United States, most students can barely order off a menu- but even if the instruction were better, it is not an essential skill in this modern era. One-two years of computer science (also an elective, by the way) is at least an equally important foundational skill for the majority of jobs these students are going to be facing when they leave college. Its just reality.

How quaint! We spent a month in Japan last year and most of our ordering was using google translate to read the menu and pointing a finger at the item accompanied by a smile and thank you of course. One of our companions knew japanese but it was a PIA asking them to step in for everything. Worked well for us.

Your iPhone could calculate the tip in the restaurants, too (actually many restaurant bills have tip right on it nowadays) so I guess you don’t need math classes either.

Sure. If you think math stops at simple arithmetic!

[Anonymous]

If your STEM kid is so brilliant then they should be able to get easy A's in everything not STEM, right? Because only STEM is actually challenging or useful or worthy of their superior intellect. So who cares about that language requirement? Should be able to knock out 2 or 3 APs with just a little time on Duolingo, right? Easy as Honors AP My Kid Is So Super Smart Magnet Accelerated Better Than You Precalc, yes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't understand the anti-language folks. I can't remember a lick of algebra or chemistry and thought they both were a waste of time. What's the difference?

+1
My kids are good at the humanities and languages. Both took their FL all four years of high school, through AP and one is now minoring in that language in college. On the flip side, neither took calculus in high school or college because they had no need to. Zero problems with great college acceptances. I would just go with the student’s strengths and stop worrying about what people tell you you *have* to do.

Scratching my head here.. The so called 'anti-language' folks are making the same point. Study what you want. Don't stuff language down our throats if we don't want it. Colleges shouldn't care about this. If language is your 'jam', by all means, learn two languages all 4 years of HS, but don't force someone who couldn't care less about language to sit through it for 4 years.

Then don't force my kid who couldn't care less about STEM to take math every year until HS graduation. He will end his HS career having been forced through infinitely more mathematics than most adults will ever need in their entire lives. And it won't have taught him anything.

I'm not in the camp of forcing anyone to learn anything. You need to decide what's good for your kid and makes sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your STEM kid is so brilliant then they should be able to get easy A's in everything not STEM, right? Because only STEM is actually challenging or useful or worthy of their superior intellect. So who cares about that language requirement? Should be able to knock out 2 or 3 APs with just a little time on Duolingo, right? Easy as Honors AP My Kid Is So Super Smart Magnet Accelerated Better Than You Precalc, yes?

And you extrapolate all that because I pointed out that calculating a tip is basic arithmetic?

[Anonymous]

It’s just so odd that so many posters have orgasms over math and science but can’t even get it up for foreign languages. And to suggest that foreign languages are useless because you can use an app to order off the menu on your vacation abroad is really telling.

The bottom line is that I am capable of forming real connections with 600 million more people than those of you who insist on raising nothing but math and science eggheads. You’re missing out on so much, and it’s really sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate and understand that. Which is why I think it is terrific to study languages if that is your thing. My point was more that there is a workaround if necessary.

I just think the US is so darned prescriptive. It has become boring to me to see all these high schoolers on the same path. We were just willing to let our son take a risk.

I have no idea how this will end. And that’s okay.

What a joke. Which major country on this planet isn’t “prescriptive” when it comes to elite college admissions? China? Japan? The UK? Germany? Australia? For most of these countries a kid’s university selection, major and often career are dictated by what decisions were made since they were, what, 10 or 12 years old? Do you really think the US is unique in having particular and sometimes perplexing university admissions requirements. If you do, then you don’t get out much.

The real difference is that American parents all think their own kid deserves special treatment and shouldn’t have to play by the rules,

You are incorrect. High standards for elite schools are fine. But subject selection is indeed overly prescriptive in the US system.

Use Australia as an example. To earn your HSC, you test in English and four other subjects of your choosing. A polyglot can test in four additional languages. A future doctor can take four sciences. There is a math/econ/commerce track. Or a mix if the student prefers. But any of these paths will get you to a great university if you do well. Rigorous, broad General Ed requirements end at the end of Year 10.

Those kids are not tying themselves in knots trying to figure out how to be a well rounded yet extraordinarily pointy varsity athlete who founded a faux charity while paying a consultant $10k to polish the essay their mother wrote for them while they were busy paying to play at building mud huts in a random Central American country to which they have no connection. While speaking French.

I don’t think any kid should play by those rules. They need to be rewritten.

Did you read what I actually wrote? I said that one of the biggest problems with approaches like the one in Australia is that it effectively forces you to pick a career track years earlier than the US education system does. And you’ve just confirmed my point.

I have a very good Australian friend whose son, for example, did exactly what you have just described to get himself into the engineering track, only to discover while in college that he really wasn’t interested. It was very difficult after so many years invested in that track to get himself out of it. Switching majors / retooling is much more difficult there than here.

[Anonymous]

Rolling single track was his choice. At 16, he could have chosen a broader subject selection. Many do. But some don’t. And that is the beauty of *choice*

For my own DC, we will not take a narrow choice. We just won’t necessarily include FL. Some other kid will choose to leave out economics. Works well for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What about switching a language after 2 years and doing 2 years of one, and 2 years of another? Does that look bad?

We have two DCs. Each did 2 years of a language in middle school, then 2 years in high school, with total credit equal to 3 years. They didn't do the 4th year or AP of this language because they were exhausted by it, but instead did 2 years of another foreign language, so the transcript looks like 3 + 2.

Each got into a T25.

[Anonymous]

My son is in his third year of regular Latin as an 11th grader and plans to bump it to AP for his senior year. I googled and realized he missed the opportunity to take the National Latin test. Any other suggestions on some Latin programs that give national recognition if he does well enough?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about switching a language after 2 years and doing 2 years of one, and 2 years of another? Does that look bad?

We have two DCs. Each did 2 years of a language in middle school, then 2 years in high school, with total credit equal to 3 years. They didn't do the 4th year or AP of this language because they were exhausted by it, but instead did 2 years of another foreign language, so the transcript looks like 3 + 2.

Each got into a T25.

And doesn't actually know much of anything about the languages they started.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This AGAIN?

The bottom line is that you can get into a decent to good college without taking four years of a language in high school, but the very good and best colleges want to see four years, and why not? Foreign language is important. It’s a complicated world. Speaking a second language is an important thing. It’s a lot more important than a lot of the other bullshit classes that you have to take in high school. Why is everybody so afraid of foreign language?

I think because they can be time consuming. Foreign language classes are just a bunch of rote memorization, you cannot get around the time needed to sit and memorize no how “smart” you are. The smart kids in all the AP science, math, English classes that are trying to get into top colleges, want to put their brain power toward the tough and complex concepts that come with these classes. They don’t want to devote a significant time chuck to a bunch of word memorizing week and week. But they have to because they need an A