Foreign language

[Anonymous]

NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

This is a charming, romantic story.

I still don’t see why it makes it better to take 4 years of language starting in 9th than to take 5 years of language starting in 7th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

This is a charming, romantic story.

I still don’t see why it makes it better to take 4 years of language starting in 9th than to take 5 years of language starting in 7th.

It doesn't. It makes it better to take 12 years of language starting in 1st. But considering that's not realistic, I'd benchmark maximum number of years spent with a good teacher and a demanding curriculum, starting as young as possible and ending as old as possible.

I'm only one example, and this will be institution-dependent to some extent, but the students I meet in college who tell me they had 5 years of study starting in grade 6 can often barely test out of college year 1. Part of the reason language sometimes feels like a waste of time to people (both students and parents) is that many students don't do it long enough to actually gain real skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

This is a charming, romantic story.

I still don’t see why it makes it better to take 4 years of language starting in 9th than to take 5 years of language starting in 7th.

It doesn't. It makes it better to take 12 years of language starting in 1st. But considering that's not realistic, I'd benchmark maximum number of years spent with a good teacher and a demanding curriculum, starting as young as possible and ending as old as possible.

I'm only one example, and this will be institution-dependent to some extent, but the students I meet in college who tell me they had 5 years of study starting in grade 6 can often barely test out of college year 1. Part of the reason language sometimes feels like a waste of time to people (both students and parents) is that many students don't do it long enough to actually gain real skills.

Ok. But just understand you’ve stopped defending the language requirements of elite colleges. Because what they require is NOT “real skills.” What they require is four years of one language in high school.

[Anonymous]

You need to think of foreign language just like any other high school subject. Colleges recommend/require a number of years for math, English, history, science, and foreign language. Some colleges ask for art too. It doesn't matter if you've taken algebra 2 in middle school; you are still expected to take the requisite number of years of math. Same with language. Most schools require only two years of language, but the top schools require or strongly recommend three or four. If course, the requirement might be waived if a student does not have the opportunity to take language at their high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need to think of foreign language just like any other high school subject. Colleges recommend/require a number of years for math, English, history, science, and foreign language. Some colleges ask for art too. It doesn't matter if you've taken algebra 2 in middle school; you are still expected to take the requisite number of years of math. Same with language. Most schools require only two years of language, but the top schools require or strongly recommend three or four. If course, the requirement might be waived if a student does not have the opportunity to take language at their high school.

If the student has the opportunity to take up to 4 years, but cannot go beyond level 5, and they place into level 3, what would you recommend?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

PP you’re responding to. You really cherry picked focusing on the word “facts.” You can be monolingual and know about other cultures. I guess you take exception to saying they know facts about cultures?? Humility, challenge, patience, courage - come on, you can get that from SO MANY things. Mandatory foreign language is not required. But if we’re talking about making things mandatory, then it’s silly (or your privilege?) to pretend that it’s irrelevant whether that mandatory thing actually helps you get ahead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

PP you’re responding to. You really cherry picked focusing on the word “facts.” You can be monolingual and know about other cultures. I guess you take exception to saying they know facts about cultures?? Humility, challenge, patience, courage - come on, you can get that from SO MANY things. Mandatory foreign language is not required. But if we’re talking about making things mandatory, then it’s silly (or your privilege?) to pretend that it’s irrelevant whether that mandatory thing actually helps you get ahead.

A mandatory area of study can contribute to someone's "getting ahead" directly or indirectly. Internship in finance leading to a job offer the next year? Direct contribution, I'd say. Early, long, and deep exposure to another language? The contribution might be indirect, but the skills and capabilities that language builds are strongly positive, even for people who never become fluent. If we only want students to learn things with an obvious, straight line between the classroom and "getting ahead," we might as well cancel about 90% of what we teach. But we will produce greatly diminished adults. It's exactly the _reverse_ of privilege: all students deserve the opportunity for a three-dimensional education that prepares them to think creatively about the unknown. And you can't just claim it's all contained in a science lab or a math textbook. It's not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

PP you’re responding to. You really cherry picked focusing on the word “facts.” You can be monolingual and know about other cultures. I guess you take exception to saying they know facts about cultures?? Humility, challenge, patience, courage - come on, you can get that from SO MANY things. Mandatory foreign language is not required. But if we’re talking about making things mandatory, then it’s silly (or your privilege?) to pretend that it’s irrelevant whether that mandatory thing actually helps you get ahead.

New poster here. I am currently sitting in a foreign country south of the border where there are expats who literally have lived here for decades and still can't speak the language. I, on the other, and not a expat -- I'm just a travel nomad from time to time who is fluent in both Spanish and English and have had formal education in both.

I was out last night for hours and hours with a group of locals who don't speak a word of English. I learned more from them in one night than many expats here can ever learn without the language. To give just one example, the folks I was with used a local slang so many times I stopped counting. It's a funny word with a truly local meaning. This morning over breakfast -- and basically as a test -- I mentioned to word to an expat who's been here forever and he said he's never heard it and doesn't know what it means. Huh? That can only mean one thing: he doesn't talk at all to anyone here who doesn't speak English, and that cuts out 90 percent of the local population.

I understand that many DCUM posters are super driven to succeed and for their kids to succeed. I just think it's sad that their definition of "success" is so narrow and so career and money focused that the very idea that devoting any time that requires a deviation from that end to developing a skill that's fundamental to humanity -- the ability to communicate with others -- is viewed only as a nuisance that gets in the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

PP you’re responding to. You really cherry picked focusing on the word “facts.” You can be monolingual and know about other cultures. I guess you take exception to saying they know facts about cultures?? Humility, challenge, patience, courage - come on, you can get that from SO MANY things. Mandatory foreign language is not required. But if we’re talking about making things mandatory, then it’s silly (or your privilege?) to pretend that it’s irrelevant whether that mandatory thing actually helps you get ahead.

New poster here. I am currently sitting in a foreign country south of the border where there are expats who literally have lived here for decades and still can't speak the language. I, on the other, and not a expat -- I'm just a travel nomad from time to time who is fluent in both Spanish and English and have had formal education in both.

I was out last night for hours and hours with a group of locals who don't speak a word of English. I learned more from them in one night than many expats here can ever learn without the language. To give just one example, the folks I was with used a local slang so many times I stopped counting. It's a funny word with a truly local meaning. This morning over breakfast -- and basically as a test -- I mentioned to word to an expat who's been here forever and he said he's never heard it and doesn't know what it means. Huh? That can only mean one thing: he doesn't talk at all to anyone here who doesn't speak English, and that cuts out 90 percent of the local population.

I understand that many DCUM posters are super driven to succeed and for their kids to succeed. I just think it's sad that their definition of "success" is so narrow and so career and money focused that the very idea that devoting any time that requires a deviation from that end to developing a skill that's fundamental to humanity -- the ability to communicate with others -- is viewed only as a nuisance that gets in the way.

Okay I’m glad you think it’s cool you know a slang world. All those expats you mention are doing just fine, communicating with the plenty of people who know or want to learn English, and thereby probably doing more for humanity than you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

PP you’re responding to. You really cherry picked focusing on the word “facts.” You can be monolingual and know about other cultures. I guess you take exception to saying they know facts about cultures?? Humility, challenge, patience, courage - come on, you can get that from SO MANY things. Mandatory foreign language is not required. But if we’re talking about making things mandatory, then it’s silly (or your privilege?) to pretend that it’s irrelevant whether that mandatory thing actually helps you get ahead.

New poster here. I am currently sitting in a foreign country south of the border where there are expats who literally have lived here for decades and still can't speak the language. I, on the other, and not a expat -- I'm just a travel nomad from time to time who is fluent in both Spanish and English and have had formal education in both.

I was out last night for hours and hours with a group of locals who don't speak a word of English. I learned more from them in one night than many expats here can ever learn without the language. To give just one example, the folks I was with used a local slang so many times I stopped counting. It's a funny word with a truly local meaning. This morning over breakfast -- and basically as a test -- I mentioned to word to an expat who's been here forever and he said he's never heard it and doesn't know what it means. Huh? That can only mean one thing: he doesn't talk at all to anyone here who doesn't speak English, and that cuts out 90 percent of the local population.

I understand that many DCUM posters are super driven to succeed and for their kids to succeed. I just think it's sad that their definition of "success" is so narrow and so career and money focused that the very idea that devoting any time that requires a deviation from that end to developing a skill that's fundamental to humanity -- the ability to communicate with others -- is viewed only as a nuisance that gets in the way.

Okay I’m glad you think it’s cool you know a slang world. All those expats you mention are doing just fine, communicating with the plenty of people who know or want to learn English, and thereby probably doing more for humanity than you.

The world doesn't all run on English, and speaking English doesn't make someone automatically superior or well-educated. PP's case study is both apt and telling: the expats in that example have (linguistically) carved out their own society separate from the one in which they are actually living.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

PP you’re responding to. You really cherry picked focusing on the word “facts.” You can be monolingual and know about other cultures. I guess you take exception to saying they know facts about cultures?? Humility, challenge, patience, courage - come on, you can get that from SO MANY things. Mandatory foreign language is not required. But if we’re talking about making things mandatory, then it’s silly (or your privilege?) to pretend that it’s irrelevant whether that mandatory thing actually helps you get ahead.

New poster here. I am currently sitting in a foreign country south of the border where there are expats who literally have lived here for decades and still can't speak the language. I, on the other, and not a expat -- I'm just a travel nomad from time to time who is fluent in both Spanish and English and have had formal education in both.

I was out last night for hours and hours with a group of locals who don't speak a word of English. I learned more from them in one night than many expats here can ever learn without the language. To give just one example, the folks I was with used a local slang so many times I stopped counting. It's a funny word with a truly local meaning. This morning over breakfast -- and basically as a test -- I mentioned to word to an expat who's been here forever and he said he's never heard it and doesn't know what it means. Huh? That can only mean one thing: he doesn't talk at all to anyone here who doesn't speak English, and that cuts out 90 percent of the local population.

I understand that many DCUM posters are super driven to succeed and for their kids to succeed. I just think it's sad that their definition of "success" is so narrow and so career and money focused that the very idea that devoting any time that requires a deviation from that end to developing a skill that's fundamental to humanity -- the ability to communicate with others -- is viewed only as a nuisance that gets in the way.

Okay I’m glad you think it’s cool you know a slang world. All those expats you mention are doing just fine, communicating with the plenty of people who know or want to learn English, and thereby probably doing more for humanity than you.

The world doesn't all run on English, and speaking English doesn't make someone automatically superior or well-educated. PP's case study is both apt and telling: the expats in that example have (linguistically) carved out their own society separate from the one in which they are actually living.

I’m sure you would not be chastising Spanish-only subcultures in the US (yes, they exist) for not really living in their actual society. Speaking a non-English language doesn’t automatically make someone superior or well-educated either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Can all the foreign language snobs stop making this specious analogy that calculators are to math as translation apps are to FL?

Look, folks, no one acquires math skills simply by growing up in math-land or something. Everyone - everywhere - has to exercise critical thinking and actually develop skills to do math and especially high-level math. The playing field is level. Math skills demonstrate real intelligence.

By contrast (excepting dead languages like Latin), putting in thousands of hours to learn a FL is not really something that reliably gives you a competitive advantage because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE speak that language by virtue of their family or country. It’s a VERY DUBIOUS investment of time in the modern era. No one needs your mediocre foreign language skills when plenty of bilingual and multilingual folks came by their skills naturally.

When I look around at my (very successful) peers, literally no one has foreign language skills to thank for anything.

I say this all as someone who learned not one but two difficult FLs (deemed critical for US national security), worked as a linguist for years in one of those language, and now not infrequently uses the other language in a different job. But I’m not so self-centered that I think my own enjoyment of languages means it’s actually a good idea to force high schoolers and college students to waste time on them. It’s NOT a good idea. I have totally deprioritized FLs for my kids.

I also call BS on everyone equating FL with knowledge or respect for other cultures. Absolutely not true. Plenty of monolingual Americans are interested in foreign countries and learn plenty about them in English. Plenty of English-only friends know as much or more facts than me about the countries where the FLs I know are spoken. I’m not morally superior to them because I know the languages.

To equate commanding "facts" about a country with understanding its culture is tourism, not knowledge. The American educational system has decided not to really foster language learning. In making that choice it passes up some impressive opportunities for brain stimulation (learning languages young can do some pretty amazing things) and tends to limit Americans in comparison with folks from many, if not most, other parts of the world.

Just because you might not be perfect or even among the best at something isn't a good reason not to study it if it has some value to add to who you are as a learner or as a person. It's like saying only genuine future stars should ever play a sport.

Learning languages isn't about getting ahead, anyway. It's about taking on something really challenging that requires patience, humility, and courage, because it comes with a lot more mistakes than just about anything else. And yes, at its best it is about trying to understand how others express themselves and perhaps even how they think. But even at its most mediocre it is about showing regard, rather than expecting everyone to speak English all the time. (It is also about learning that not speaking English doesn't mean there is something lacking in someone else.) And studying another language can improve someone's command of their own, native one, too.

PP you’re responding to. You really cherry picked focusing on the word “facts.” You can be monolingual and know about other cultures. I guess you take exception to saying they know facts about cultures?? Humility, challenge, patience, courage - come on, you can get that from SO MANY things. Mandatory foreign language is not required. But if we’re talking about making things mandatory, then it’s silly (or your privilege?) to pretend that it’s irrelevant whether that mandatory thing actually helps you get ahead.

New poster here. I am currently sitting in a foreign country south of the border where there are expats who literally have lived here for decades and still can't speak the language. I, on the other, and not a expat -- I'm just a travel nomad from time to time who is fluent in both Spanish and English and have had formal education in both.

I was out last night for hours and hours with a group of locals who don't speak a word of English. I learned more from them in one night than many expats here can ever learn without the language. To give just one example, the folks I was with used a local slang so many times I stopped counting. It's a funny word with a truly local meaning. This morning over breakfast -- and basically as a test -- I mentioned to word to an expat who's been here forever and he said he's never heard it and doesn't know what it means. Huh? That can only mean one thing: he doesn't talk at all to anyone here who doesn't speak English, and that cuts out 90 percent of the local population.

I understand that many DCUM posters are super driven to succeed and for their kids to succeed. I just think it's sad that their definition of "success" is so narrow and so career and money focused that the very idea that devoting any time that requires a deviation from that end to developing a skill that's fundamental to humanity -- the ability to communicate with others -- is viewed only as a nuisance that gets in the way.

Okay I’m glad you think it’s cool you know a slang world. All those expats you mention are doing just fine, communicating with the plenty of people who know or want to learn English, and thereby probably doing more for humanity than you.

The world doesn't all run on English, and speaking English doesn't make someone automatically superior or well-educated. PP's case study is both apt and telling: the expats in that example have (linguistically) carved out their own society separate from the one in which they are actually living.

Native English speakers living abroad are often practically begged by locals to help the locals “practice their English.” I cannot tell you how many times this has happened to me despite having varying degrees of proficiency in the local language. I honestly felt kind bad if I insisted on prioritizing *my* language practice over theirs, given how much concrete value English language skills provide.

[Anonymous]

^ kinda bad