How I Lost My Faith: A thread for atheist testimony

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is how it happened to me. I had always since young adulthood questioned how bad things happened to good people and good things happened to bad people. It’s everywhere. Then my mom got terminal cancer at 60. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks, God is not going to stop this wonderful, faithful woman from dying. Even as she was telling me he had a plan and things happen for a reason. And I just wanted to scream at her “This is not a plan and it’s not happening for some divine reason!!!” I didn’t say that of course.

I decided there were 3 possibilities:

1. God is not omnipotent.
2. God is omnipotent and is just an a-hole.
3. There is no God.

I’m not sure which of the above is true.

Thanks for your post, PP. You may know this, but a similar philosophy to your was stated by Epicurus a long time ago (3rd century BC):

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

PP here. Thank you for sharing and yes that’s how I feel. I’m actually jealous of those comforted by faith. I would love to have that comfort.

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Why not go with Epicurus when someone you love is dying? He was so comforting, pp. You all fear death unnecessarily, it is the cause of your anxiety, selfish behaviors, and hypocrisy. God doesn’t cause that- you do.

Then why do Christians pray to God to spare death?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is how it happened to me. I had always since young adulthood questioned how bad things happened to good people and good things happened to bad people. It’s everywhere. Then my mom got terminal cancer at 60. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks, God is not going to stop this wonderful, faithful woman from dying. Even as she was telling me he had a plan and things happen for a reason. And I just wanted to scream at her “This is not a plan and it’s not happening for some divine reason!!!” I didn’t say that of course.

I decided there were 3 possibilities:

1. God is not omnipotent.
2. God is omnipotent and is just an a-hole.
3. There is no God.

I’m not sure which of the above is true.

Thanks for your post, PP. You may know this, but a similar philosophy to your was stated by Epicurus a long time ago (3rd century BC):

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

PP here. Thank you for sharing and yes that’s how I feel. I’m actually jealous of those comforted by faith. I would love to have that comfort.

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Why not go with Epicurus when someone you love is dying? He was so comforting, pp. You all fear death unnecessarily, it is the cause of your anxiety, selfish behaviors, and hypocrisy. God doesn’t cause that- you do.

Then why do Christians pray to God to spare death?

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Epicurus is being quoted above, and this is what he thought about death and the fear of death. If the above people quoting him are fearing death, they are the ones to ask why they fear death. It would stand to reason they wouldn’t just cherry pick something he said to post or quote and then ignore his other wisdom.

No Christian I know quotes or follows the words of Epicurus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is how it happened to me. I had always since young adulthood questioned how bad things happened to good people and good things happened to bad people. It’s everywhere. Then my mom got terminal cancer at 60. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks, God is not going to stop this wonderful, faithful woman from dying. Even as she was telling me he had a plan and things happen for a reason. And I just wanted to scream at her “This is not a plan and it’s not happening for some divine reason!!!” I didn’t say that of course.

I decided there were 3 possibilities:

1. God is not omnipotent.
2. God is omnipotent and is just an a-hole.
3. There is no God.

I’m not sure which of the above is true.

Thanks for your post, PP. You may know this, but a similar philosophy to your was stated by Epicurus a long time ago (3rd century BC):

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

PP here. Thank you for sharing and yes that’s how I feel. I’m actually jealous of those comforted by faith. I would love to have that comfort.

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Why not go with Epicurus when someone you love is dying? He was so comforting, pp. You all fear death unnecessarily, it is the cause of your anxiety, selfish behaviors, and hypocrisy. God doesn’t cause that- you do.

Then why do Christians pray to God to spare death?

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Epicurus is being quoted above, and this is what he thought about death and the fear of death. If the above people quoting him are fearing death, they are the ones to ask why they fear death. It would stand to reason they wouldn’t just cherry pick something he said to post or quote and then ignore his other wisdom.

No Christian I know quotes or follows the words of Epicurus.

It's not "cherry picking", it is his most famous quote about the mutual exclusivity in an omnipotent god and problem of evil, written 300 years before Christ.

"Cherry picking" = "words I do not like" apparently.

And this is a thread fort Atheist testimony, BTW. If you don't want to be challenged in religious threads why would you do the same here? Personally I welcome your challenges, but just know they make all threads fair game, so no more whining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is how it happened to me. I had always since young adulthood questioned how bad things happened to good people and good things happened to bad people. It’s everywhere. Then my mom got terminal cancer at 60. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks, God is not going to stop this wonderful, faithful woman from dying. Even as she was telling me he had a plan and things happen for a reason. And I just wanted to scream at her “This is not a plan and it’s not happening for some divine reason!!!” I didn’t say that of course.

I decided there were 3 possibilities:

1. God is not omnipotent.
2. God is omnipotent and is just an a-hole.
3. There is no God.

I’m not sure which of the above is true.

Thanks for your post, PP. You may know this, but a similar philosophy to your was stated by Epicurus a long time ago (3rd century BC):

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

PP here. Thank you for sharing and yes that’s how I feel. I’m actually jealous of those comforted by faith. I would love to have that comfort.

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Why not go with Epicurus when someone you love is dying? He was so comforting, pp. You all fear death unnecessarily, it is the cause of your anxiety, selfish behaviors, and hypocrisy. God doesn’t cause that- you do.

Then why do Christians pray to God to spare death?

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Epicurus is being quoted above, and this is what he thought about death and the fear of death. If the above people quoting him are fearing death, they are the ones to ask why they fear death. It would stand to reason they wouldn’t just cherry pick something he said to post or quote and then ignore his other wisdom.

No Christian I know quotes or follows the words of Epicurus.

It's not "cherry picking", it is his most famous quote about the mutual exclusivity in an omnipotent god and problem of evil, written 300 years before Christ.

"Cherry picking" = "words I do not like" apparently.

And this is a thread fort Atheist testimony, BTW. If you don't want to be challenged in religious threads why would you do the same here? Personally I welcome your challenges, but just know they make all threads fair game, so no more whining.

You misunderstood- the second quote is also from the same guy. If one embraces his quote God- why not embrace his quote about death?

[Anonymous]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

The root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.- Epicurus

Why can’t people just not fear death like Epicurus tells them not to? (People who aren’t Christian ofc)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Raised Catholic but my parents lost their religion and I didn’t go after 8th grade. Went back as an adult. I found Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount quite beautiful and moving, even frightening. It is quite a prescription for how to live.

I got sick of the stupid sermons. The child abuse is completely evil. I think most all organized religion is not good. I have met a lot of people who were abused in some way by the effects of religion and it’s so common as to be disturbing. I also can’t stand the move of religion into politics and elections. I don’t relate to the trend toward orthodoxy and fundamentalism that seems to be the prevailing fashion, or at least a very potent force, in most world religions in this day and age.

I have also known some great people who probably are great because of their beliefs, especially Jewish friends, for what it’s worth.

I can’t stand the megachurch, rock n roll Christianity that is so common where I live in Southern California. I don’t even understand what it has to do with the New Testament. Not much, IMO.

I used to pray every day but don’t feel the same about it anymore. Sometimes though I feel as if my loss of faith is also a message from God or part of a faith journey. Like I had to get away from the Pharisees. However, I feel less and less like there is a God to pray to in the way I had. It’s more like I should just contemplate mystery and creation, that biology is God, or DNA and randomness is God. Beauty is God.

I loved your post.

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is how it happened to me. I had always since young adulthood questioned how bad things happened to good people and good things happened to bad people. It’s everywhere. Then my mom got terminal cancer at 60. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks, God is not going to stop this wonderful, faithful woman from dying. Even as she was telling me he had a plan and things happen for a reason. And I just wanted to scream at her “This is not a plan and it’s not happening for some divine reason!!!” I didn’t say that of course.

I decided there were 3 possibilities:

1. God is not omnipotent.
2. God is omnipotent and is just an a-hole.
3. There is no God.

I’m not sure which of the above is true.

Thanks for your post, PP. You may know this, but a similar philosophy to your was stated by Epicurus a long time ago (3rd century BC):

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

PP here. Thank you for sharing and yes that’s how I feel. I’m actually jealous of those comforted by faith. I would love to have that comfort.

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Why not go with Epicurus when someone you love is dying? He was so comforting, pp. You all fear death unnecessarily, it is the cause of your anxiety, selfish behaviors, and hypocrisy. God doesn’t cause that- you do.

Then why do Christians pray to God to spare death?

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Epicurus is being quoted above, and this is what he thought about death and the fear of death. If the above people quoting him are fearing death, they are the ones to ask why they fear death. It would stand to reason they wouldn’t just cherry pick something he said to post or quote and then ignore his other wisdom.

No Christian I know quotes or follows the words of Epicurus.

It's not "cherry picking", it is his most famous quote about the mutual exclusivity in an omnipotent god and problem of evil, written 300 years before Christ.

"Cherry picking" = "words I do not like" apparently.

And this is a thread fort Atheist testimony, BTW. If you don't want to be challenged in religious threads why would you do the same here? Personally I welcome your challenges, but just know they make all threads fair game, so no more whining.

You misunderstood- the second quote is also from the same guy. If one embraces his quote God- why not embrace his quote about death?

I don't practice in cult like behavior where everything one person says has to be accepted blindly.

But you keep gish galloping and trying to obscure the point, which was that the same fact that was bothering an atheist here in their journey bothered people 300 years before christ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is how it happened to me. I had always since young adulthood questioned how bad things happened to good people and good things happened to bad people. It’s everywhere. Then my mom got terminal cancer at 60. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks, God is not going to stop this wonderful, faithful woman from dying. Even as she was telling me he had a plan and things happen for a reason. And I just wanted to scream at her “This is not a plan and it’s not happening for some divine reason!!!” I didn’t say that of course.

I decided there were 3 possibilities:

1. God is not omnipotent.
2. God is omnipotent and is just an a-hole.
3. There is no God.

I’m not sure which of the above is true.

Thanks for your post, PP. You may know this, but a similar philosophy to your was stated by Epicurus a long time ago (3rd century BC):

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

PP here. Thank you for sharing and yes that’s how I feel. I’m actually jealous of those comforted by faith. I would love to have that comfort.

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Why not go with Epicurus when someone you love is dying? He was so comforting, pp. You all fear death unnecessarily, it is the cause of your anxiety, selfish behaviors, and hypocrisy. God doesn’t cause that- you do.

Then why do Christians pray to God to spare death?

Epicurus taught that the root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.

Epicurus is being quoted above, and this is what he thought about death and the fear of death. If the above people quoting him are fearing death, they are the ones to ask why they fear death. It would stand to reason they wouldn’t just cherry pick something he said to post or quote and then ignore his other wisdom.

No Christian I know quotes or follows the words of Epicurus.

It's not "cherry picking", it is his most famous quote about the mutual exclusivity in an omnipotent god and problem of evil, written 300 years before Christ.

"Cherry picking" = "words I do not like" apparently.

And this is a thread fort Atheist testimony, BTW. If you don't want to be challenged in religious threads why would you do the same here? Personally I welcome your challenges, but just know they make all threads fair game, so no more whining.

You misunderstood- the second quote is also from the same guy. If one embraces his quote God- why not embrace his quote about death?

I don't practice in cult like behavior where everything one person says has to be accepted blindly.

But you keep gish galloping and trying to obscure the point, which was that the same fact that was bothering an atheist here in their journey bothered people 300 years before christ.

Thus, to the cherries we go. Pick, pick, pick pick, don’t pick, don’t pick, pick, how convenient.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was an atheist who lost faith, and then found faith, after many years.

I think faith or lack of faith can ebb and flow.

I think so, too.

I disagree.

Once you look objectively and see there is no evidence for god (by the definitions of god most used) there really is no ebb or flow.

It's actually wonderful, liberating, and permanent - at least until some evidence arises.

There was definitely ebb and flow in my case too, so that makes three of us on this thread.

What evidence did you find that made you “ebb and flow” back to faith?

Forgive my presumption, but I assume you mean you fought between your acknowledgment that there is insufficient evidence and some other emotion? Is that accurate?

This is the PP you responded to. People change. I'm not sure why you feel the need to break this down to digest it? You seem rigid, not rational.

It’s irrational to want to know what your reasoning was?

If you don’t want to say, that’s fine that’s your prerogative. But please don’t pretend that it’s not a perfectly logical question. If you don’t answer it, people will make their own assumption as to why.

Your approach to faith is paradoxical. You're demanding the recipe for faith, but there isn't one. A few years ago I was 100% convinced there was no God. To my surprise my faith has grown, but not as a result of my own efforts.

That’s preposterous not demanding any recipe for faith. I am asking you what evidence convinced you back. At this point you’re taking the thread off topic so let’s just drop it since you clearly are not going to say which makes me think your post is not genuine.

How would you describe color to a blind person?

The same way you would describe color to a person with perfect vision.

Now, what evidence convinced you back from being an atheist?

DP. Go ahead, describe "red" to us DCUMers. We'll wait.

You made the allegory as a method of avoiding answering the question of what convinced you to go back.

You added the variable of "a blind person" as an insult insinuating that atheists just can't see what you can. You asked the question and it was answered, pointing out the allegory was faulty.

Your "go ahead" challenge is now your feeble attempt to continue avoiding the question of what evidence convinced you to go back. You owned yourself with that silly allegory and admitted that there was no evidence, and no reason. That's fine - that's 100% your prerogative - but please don't insult intelligent people here by saying we don't see it because we are blind.

I'm the "describe red" poster and not the pp you're having your childish feud with. I do actually think it's a good allegory, though--describing faith is at least as hard as describing colors. And that's probably why you declined to describe red--pp's point is made.

+1

I agree it’s a good comparison. I can’t “see” what believers can. It’s just all irrational nonsense to me.

[Anonymous]

I have read way too much about the Holocaust to have faith in God. A benevolent God would NOT have let innocent children die in that manner.

[Anonymous]

I have been atheist as long as I can remember. Raised Hindu, and respected rituals when my parents required, but they knew of my nonbelief. I always argued against donations to temples when there are so many people starving and suffering, and argued our money should go to causes that truly help people in need (or the environment, education or other worthy causes.) My mom died 7 years ago, and my dad died in May in India. Although I am not at all religious, his cousins took over and planned elaborate religious ceremonies that my brother and I had to participate in for 13 days, and that wasnt the end. Now there are more ceremonies around 6 months, and my dad’s cousin is pressuring me to give $$$ for temple expansion in their remote, poor village! My father was a believer so Im probably going to give a little, but last time I was there, earlier this year, there were poor women and men begging in a wretched condition outside the old temple. My heart is broken, I feel manipulated and angry. This month, i switched all my monthly giving (sace the children and doctors without borders) to benefit the people in Gaza… my dad’s cousin is very closeminded and anti/Muslim…. Again, why am i giving money to perpetuate hate and division? I feel sick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have been atheist as long as I can remember. Raised Hindu, and respected rituals when my parents required, but they knew of my nonbelief. I always argued against donations to temples when there are so many people starving and suffering, and argued our money should go to causes that truly help people in need (or the environment, education or other worthy causes.) My mom died 7 years ago, and my dad died in May in India. Although I am not at all religious, his cousins took over and planned elaborate religious ceremonies that my brother and I had to participate in for 13 days, and that wasnt the end. Now there are more ceremonies around 6 months, and my dad’s cousin is pressuring me to give $$$ for temple expansion in their remote, poor village! My father was a believer so Im probably going to give a little, but last time I was there, earlier this year, there were poor women and men begging in a wretched condition outside the old temple. My heart is broken, I feel manipulated and angry. This month, i switched all my monthly giving (sace the children and doctors without borders) to benefit the people in Gaza… my dad’s cousin is very closeminded and anti/Muslim…. Again, why am i giving money to perpetuate hate and division? I feel sick.

Doctors Without Borders is not a religious organization.

MSF offers assistance to people based on need and irrespective of race, religion, gender or political affiliation. We give priority to those in the most serious and immediate danger. Our decisions are not based on political, economic or religious interests.

Do you think they are a Christian organization? They are not, at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

The root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.- Epicurus

Why can’t people just not fear death like Epicurus tells them not to? (People who aren’t Christian ofc)

I am deeply religious and yer I love these philosophical questions and challenges.

for the 2nd quote, my take is that Epicurus misunderstands or misrepresents the fear NON-Christians have as fearing that a bad or painful result will occur once you die.
But I think most people (Christian and non) fear the separation from loved ones that is brought on by the death of their physical body, MORE than a hellish afterlife existence. It’s valid to fear the unknown and to fear separation from the ones we love.

For Christians, we believe that God is LOVE. And to be separated from God (love) is death. Let me restate that—sin is literally us willfully separating ourselves from God.
When we sin, we are choosing separation from God. The natural consequence of sin IS death, whether it’s here on earth OR in an afterlife. That’s the deal.

But Christians also believe that Christ took upon that punishment as a stand-in—a savior—for the world …
We believe in the gift of eternal life that triumphs over sin and death, that is God saying “I sent my only son to suffer the punishment for YOUR sins so you do not have to live apart from love. You can be forgiven for your sins and cleansed of that simply by accepting the sacrifice I made to save you from this consequence…and this acceptance allows you to LIVE in love even after the death of your body”
But the choice is ours because benevolent, NOT malevolent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

The root of all human neuroses is death denial and the tendency for human beings to assume that death will be horrific and painful, which he claimed causes unnecessary anxiety, selfish self-protective behaviors, and hypocrisy.- Epicurus

Why can’t people just not fear death like Epicurus tells them not to? (People who aren’t Christian ofc)

I am deeply religious and yer I love these philosophical questions and challenges.

for the 2nd quote, my take is that Epicurus misunderstands or misrepresents the fear NON-Christians have as fearing that a bad or painful result will occur once you die.
But I think most people (Christian and non) fear the separation from loved ones that is brought on by the death of their physical body, MORE than a hellish afterlife existence. It’s valid to fear the unknown and to fear separation from the ones we love.

For Christians, we believe that God is LOVE. And to be separated from God (love) is death. Let me restate that—sin is literally us willfully separating ourselves from God.
When we sin, we are choosing separation from God. The natural consequence of sin IS death, whether it’s here on earth OR in an afterlife. That’s the deal.

But Christians also believe that Christ took upon that punishment as a stand-in—a savior—for the world …
We believe in the gift of eternal life that triumphs over sin and death, that is God saying “I sent my only son to suffer the punishment for YOUR sins so you do not have to live apart from love. You can be forgiven for your sins and cleansed of that simply by accepting the sacrifice I made to save you from this consequence…and this acceptance allows you to LIVE in love even after the death of your body”
But the choice is ours because benevolent, NOT malevolent.

Now do victims of suicide.

[Anonymous]

NP: so why sacrifice a human (Christ)?
This is suffering.