Started working at an elementary school last week. Shocked and sad. AMA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think the pendulum has swung a little too far in terms of the inclusion philosophy at public schools. It's not fair to the teachers or the neurotypical students when there are students in the class who have needs that can't be met in a normal classroom.

If the schools had the resources to provide sufficient staff to help teachers manage those students it might be a different story. But they don't.

Yep, this. It is really unfair the majority of kids that they are held hostage by other kids with these issues. If you are a parent of a child who disrupts the learning of all the other kids, how do you justify yourself? Don’t you feel bad?

They don’t. Their job as a parent is to push what’s best for their kid. Doesn’t matter if your kid is steamrolled in the process. You, and all other parents of kids impacted by behaviorally challenged kids should have the same philosophy. Instead you are expected to have empathy and “give grace”.

I love you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ I’m sure the teacher has no idea about the kid who cannot write, because the focus on that class is on a different kid with significant behavioral and emotional issues.

If the parents have the money for testing, the kid who can’t write has a purchased diagnosis and an IEP with requirements the parents are able to constantly follow up on. If the behavior problem’s parents don’t agree to testing, then no such goals exist

A purchased diagnosis? You are ridiculous. And the schools do just stellar with IEPs (sarcasm), ask the majority of parents of kids with needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think the pendulum has swung a little too far in terms of the inclusion philosophy at public schools. It's not fair to the teachers or the neurotypical students when there are students in the class who have needs that can't be met in a normal classroom.

If the schools had the resources to provide sufficient staff to help teachers manage those students it might be a different story. But they don't.

Yep, this. It is really unfair the majority of kids that they are held hostage by other kids with these issues. If you are a parent of a child who disrupts the learning of all the other kids, how do you justify yourself? Don’t you feel bad?

They don’t. Their job as a parent is to push what’s best for their kid. Doesn’t matter if your kid is steamrolled in the process. You, and all other parents of kids impacted by behaviorally challenged kids should have the same philosophy. Instead you are expected to have empathy and “give grace”.

I love you.

It didn’t take long for 19:42 to validate this. Everyone needs to be rallying together when there are behavioral issues in the classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think the pendulum has swung a little too far in terms of the inclusion philosophy at public schools. It's not fair to the teachers or the neurotypical students when there are students in the class who have needs that can't be met in a normal classroom.

If the schools had the resources to provide sufficient staff to help teachers manage those students it might be a different story. But they don't.

Yep, this. It is really unfair the majority of kids that they are held hostage by other kids with these issues. If you are a parent of a child who disrupts the learning of all the other kids, how do you justify yourself? Don’t you feel bad?

You clearly have not spent much time on the SN forum. All we feel is bad. All the time we feel bad. I advocated unsuccessfully for aids and pull outs. I punished at home. I medicated him. I took time off work to take him to special therapies. I bought books like “personal space camp” and “my mother is a volcano”. I worked with the teacher and admin to come up with work around and says to avoid triggers. I took more time off work to go to all the class parties and field trips that the teacher would permit me to attend so that other parents did not have to manage him. I tried dietary changes and supplements. Yes, I know many kids still found him disruptive. He’s a teenage now and many of those kids now like him, at least some of the time. If there was more I could do, I would have done it. You don’t really know what parents have and haven’t tried. By the way, although he has had his disruptive moments, he is also a sweet kid that often helped teachers and was a fiercely loyal friend, often standing up for kids that were bullied and never judging anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

It also doesn’t serve the SN kids! If the SN parents have to drug, punish, pay thousands for aides all to survive school, why are they in school in the first place??? It’s obviously not the right environment for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

MOST kids with IEPs and undocumented/undiagnosed needs do belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. But some don't. Again, I'm talking about the 1-2%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

It also doesn’t serve the SN kids! If the SN parents have to drug, punish, pay thousands for aides all to survive school, why are they in school in the first place??? It’s obviously not the right environment for them.

I really don't know what some of these kids are getting from being mainstreamed, apart from basically being in a babysitter's care at school. I heard of a kid last year who would actually run out of the classroom and bolt for the outside door and try to run into traffic. I don't know of a teacher or aide who met him who wasn't punched or kicked. Because of laws and regulations now, we also cannot "physically restrain" or restrict kids at all unless specially trained (which teachers and aides are not), so he is allowed to wander the classroom, run out of specials into the hall, and run outside to have his own recess and an assistant teacher can do nothing but follow him and try to redirect. We cannot guide him physically. A kid like that is not getting anything out of being in a regular classroom.

I am NOT talking about kid with dyslexia or who has a hearing aide! The examples people are giving above are not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about the extreme outliers who make it near impossible for other kids to learn and who are repeatedly physically violent to adults and peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do think the pendulum has swung a little too far in terms of the inclusion philosophy at public schools. It's not fair to the teachers or the neurotypical students when there are students in the class who have needs that can't be met in a normal classroom.

If the schools had the resources to provide sufficient staff to help teachers manage those students it might be a different story. But they don't.

What do you think is the solution?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Informal AMA thread. I am already shocked and saddened by the state of public elementary. This is in a wealthy suburb. There’s is a free lunch contingent but test scores are excellent and if you watch morning drop off it’s a lot of luxury vehicles.

I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher. I’ve heard 7 year olds using language I’d feel guilty about even repeating! I’ve watched teacher be kicked and punched and slapped, again by 6 and 7 year olds! And the hot lunches shocked me. The other day I watched one kid eat the following for lunch: giant chocolate chip muffin, chocolate milk, sugary Dannon yogurt, low fat string cheese. This is a “balanced” meal provided by the school.

Maybe I am just out of touch, but I feel many typical parents would be surprised to hear what elementary school is like for their kids.

Yep. It is like this. Imagine in a not affluent area.

Sometimes lower income schools are better equipped since the classes are kept at around 17 to 20.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you think our kids don’t tell us this stuff? We know.

What are you doing to help get troubled kids the help they need? (That the school frequently refuses to provide.)

I know that some of the parents don’t want to admit their kids may have any problems. One is a kid who the school has pushed to get tested and parents refuse. For another kid who is consistently violent and disruptive, I don’t know what can be done by the school beyond what’s been done. I’ve been to told to document.

Testing is very expensive, and often not covered by insurance. We do not qualify for low income programs, and still can't afford 4-6k in testing.

If the teacher is the one pushing the testing for a disruptive child, then the testing will be performed by the school district, at no cost to the parents.

You have it all wrong. Yes the school can test kids using school system resources. If a parent requests something I think the school has 60 days to comply. But if a parent refuses to request then the school system needs to collect data for months. It's a much higher burden if proof. It can take months if not a whole calendar year to get a kid qualified and then a parent can pull the plug on services. I have seen parents who are either oblivious or just in complete denial about their child and actively hindering them from qualifying from special education services. I knew of one parent who would just move every year and change schools because obviously it was the school's fault that her son was completely out of control and cursing, attacking people with sharp objects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Informal AMA thread. I am already shocked and saddened by the state of public elementary. This is in a wealthy suburb. There’s is a free lunch contingent but test scores are excellent and if you watch morning drop off it’s a lot of luxury vehicles.

I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher. I’ve heard 7 year olds using language I’d feel guilty about even repeating! I’ve watched teacher be kicked and punched and slapped, again by 6 and 7 year olds! And the hot lunches shocked me. The other day I watched one kid eat the following for lunch: giant chocolate chip muffin, chocolate milk, sugary Dannon yogurt, low fat string cheese. This is a “balanced” meal provided by the school.

Maybe I am just out of touch, but I feel many typical parents would be surprised to hear what elementary school is like for their kids.

Typically the kids are supposed to take a balanced meal with protein fruit carbs and vegetables but oftentimes the kids can just choose to pick the sugary stuff and dairy. I acknowledge that school lunches are often terrible but it's also depressing how much of their lunches get thrown away

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

It also doesn’t serve the SN kids! If the SN parents have to drug, punish, pay thousands for aides all to survive school, why are they in school in the first place??? It’s obviously not the right environment for them.

I really don't know what some of these kids are getting from being mainstreamed, apart from basically being in a babysitter's care at school. I heard of a kid last year who would actually run out of the classroom and bolt for the outside door and try to run into traffic. I don't know of a teacher or aide who met him who wasn't punched or kicked. Because of laws and regulations now, we also cannot "physically restrain" or restrict kids at all unless specially trained (which teachers and aides are not), so he is allowed to wander the classroom, run out of specials into the hall, and run outside to have his own recess and an assistant teacher can do nothing but follow him and try to redirect. We cannot guide him physically. A kid like that is not getting anything out of being in a regular classroom.

I am NOT talking about kid with dyslexia or who has a hearing aide! The examples people are giving above are not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about the extreme outliers who make it near impossible for other kids to learn and who are repeatedly physically violent to adults and peers.

The lack of knowledge re: SN on this thread is disgraceful. This thread acts like… the school district doesn’t have more restrictive environments and self-contained classrooms. In this alternate reality, somehow kids who can’t write (dysgraphia) are being lumped in with kids who elope or have violent behaviors which apparently are the same as all kids who are neurodiverse (whatever that means these days). They are all the same!
But Children who persist in violent behavior or elope are moved. Full stop. They don’t remain integrated. The kid who can’t write letters? Maybe he has to sit there and wait for YOUR kid to learn math at an average pace. It’s called being 2E. Or maybe he has a mild intellectual disability but is almost on grade level. The OP doesn’t seem like she understands how complicated children’s profiles can be OR the official guidelines for taking kids out of gen ed to be making the judgements she is posting. Which is fine , but all the parents rushing to suggest their kid is not doing as well because of “other kids” sound equally as ignorant (if not in denial)).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

It also doesn’t serve the SN kids! If the SN parents have to drug, punish, pay thousands for aides all to survive school, why are they in school in the first place??? It’s obviously not the right environment for them.

I really don't know what some of these kids are getting from being mainstreamed, apart from basically being in a babysitter's care at school. I heard of a kid last year who would actually run out of the classroom and bolt for the outside door and try to run into traffic. I don't know of a teacher or aide who met him who wasn't punched or kicked. Because of laws and regulations now, we also cannot "physically restrain" or restrict kids at all unless specially trained (which teachers and aides are not), so he is allowed to wander the classroom, run out of specials into the hall, and run outside to have his own recess and an assistant teacher can do nothing but follow him and try to redirect. We cannot guide him physically. A kid like that is not getting anything out of being in a regular classroom.

I am NOT talking about kid with dyslexia or who has a hearing aide! The examples people are giving above are not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about the extreme outliers who make it near impossible for other kids to learn and who are repeatedly physically violent to adults and peers.

The lack of knowledge re: SN on this thread is disgraceful. This thread acts like… the school district doesn’t have more restrictive environments and self-contained classrooms. In this alternate reality, somehow kids who can’t write (dysgraphia) are being lumped in with kids who elope or have violent behaviors which apparently are the same as all kids who are neurodiverse (whatever that means these days). They are all the same!
But Children who persist in violent behavior or elope are moved. Full stop. They don’t remain integrated. The kid who can’t write letters? Maybe he has to sit there and wait for YOUR kid to learn math at an average pace. It’s called being 2E. Or maybe he has a mild intellectual disability but is almost on grade level. The OP doesn’t seem like she understands how complicated children’s profiles can be OR the official guidelines for taking kids out of gen ed to be making the judgements she is posting. Which is fine , but all the parents rushing to suggest their kid is not doing as well because of “other kids” sound equally as ignorant (if not in denial)).

And how long does this take? How much documentation needs to be completed over what period of time before the kid is removed from gen ed? Because that’s not what I am seeing at all. Kids are mainstreamed even when it’s become clear over months and months that it is not working for anyone.