Started working at an elementary school last week. Shocked and sad. AMA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

It also doesn’t serve the SN kids! If the SN parents have to drug, punish, pay thousands for aides all to survive school, why are they in school in the first place??? It’s obviously not the right environment for them.

I really don't know what some of these kids are getting from being mainstreamed, apart from basically being in a babysitter's care at school. I heard of a kid last year who would actually run out of the classroom and bolt for the outside door and try to run into traffic. I don't know of a teacher or aide who met him who wasn't punched or kicked. Because of laws and regulations now, we also cannot "physically restrain" or restrict kids at all unless specially trained (which teachers and aides are not), so he is allowed to wander the classroom, run out of specials into the hall, and run outside to have his own recess and an assistant teacher can do nothing but follow him and try to redirect. We cannot guide him physically. A kid like that is not getting anything out of being in a regular classroom.

I am NOT talking about kid with dyslexia or who has a hearing aide! The examples people are giving above are not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about the extreme outliers who make it near impossible for other kids to learn and who are repeatedly physically violent to adults and peers.

The lack of knowledge re: SN on this thread is disgraceful. This thread acts like… the school district doesn’t have more restrictive environments and self-contained classrooms. In this alternate reality, somehow kids who can’t write (dysgraphia) are being lumped in with kids who elope or have violent behaviors which apparently are the same as all kids who are neurodiverse (whatever that means these days). They are all the same!
But Children who persist in violent behavior or elope are moved. Full stop. They don’t remain integrated. The kid who can’t write letters? Maybe he has to sit there and wait for YOUR kid to learn math at an average pace. It’s called being 2E. Or maybe he has a mild intellectual disability but is almost on grade level. The OP doesn’t seem like she understands how complicated children’s profiles can be OR the official guidelines for taking kids out of gen ed to be making the judgements she is posting. Which is fine , but all the parents rushing to suggest their kid is not doing as well because of “other kids” sound equally as ignorant (if not in denial)).

And how long does this take? How much documentation needs to be completed over what period of time before the kid is removed from gen ed? Because that’s not what I am seeing at all. Kids are mainstreamed even when it’s become clear over months and months that it is not working for anyone.

+1 PP is delusional to think kids with behavioral problems are moved. That is a rare rare case. How many threads are posted on this site year after year by parents and teachers describing kids and teachers constantly being attack. Or having to clear the room because of a violent child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you think our kids don’t tell us this stuff? We know.

What are you doing to help get troubled kids the help they need? (That the school frequently refuses to provide.)

What are the PARENTS doing to get troubled kids the help they need? (that the parents frequently refuse to provide)

[Anonymous]

Just talked to my 80yo father about this, I was saying how if school was like this when I was a kid, I didn't notice. He said by the time I would notice, I would have been grouped in with the elite kids. Which happened by 4th grade in the 1980s. I never had a class again with anyone not above-average IQ.

My Dad said that in his day (born 1943 in hillbilly country), there were 15-16 year olds in the 4th and 5th grades. The teachers would not advance them if they didn't prove what they needed to learn in order to advance! At 16 obviously they dropped out, or earlier if they became parents. Those were kids who were low IQ or learning disabled. But if a child had behavioral issues that were disruptive? In that case, they didn't go to school. They had a teacher visit them in their home. My grandmother, my father's mother, did this work. She did art classes at homes for the kids who could not attend school because of their disruptive and violent behaviors.

Not saying any of the above is right. I appreciated the history.

I am a bit shocked at what I have seen. Teachers (saints!) trying to deal with a 1st grade class that ranges from extreme special needs to high intellectual ability. At 1st grade, the IEPs haven't been started/processed etc. It's unbelievable they get anything done at all, but they do their best.

But overall I think it's better to include than exclude. Kids in the past were excluded wrongly -- this is the missing part of my Dad's all-white-person story: black kids were not even considered, not allowed to go to the same school in his town. And I bet my grandmother only visited white families for her art class visits. Toxic racism is behind much of where we were and where we are today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

I’m so sick of people claiming there’s “no funding” or “not enough funding” in our schools. Schools in DC spend literally more than $22k per year per kid, average. Some are obviously a lot more. Schools in Florida spend $9k and that’s still high, relatively speaking. Other Western countries spend WAY less than we do in the US. People need to start acknowledging that if an average of $22k/year isn’t enough to get all students meeting a basic grade level standard then money is NOT the problem and more money is NOT the answer.

They can start by getting all the disruptive kids out of our classrooms and back into special facilities that are equipped (no scissors, yes metal detectors, yes guards) and trained (staff with personal defense training plus deescalation techniques etc plus aides floating around) to handle them.

The problem is the students and the parents. Not the schools. Schools don’t need more money or more anything. They need less of the thing that’s destroying them, which is disruptive students.

I don’t disagree that disruptive or violent kids don’t belong in mainstream classrooms and that FAPE needs a *massive* overhaul, but there is already a teacher shortage, and a dire teacher shortage in special ed. Where exactly are you planning to get all the teachers and staff for these metal detector schools again?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I for one am grateful to the parents of the kids with dyslexia who have pretty much been the only group fighting for effective reading instruction for years. Without their efforts my child would have been another victim of the Lucy Calkins/ Fountas & Pinnell nonsense.

Universal design for instruction helps all learners.

People aren’t talking about dyslexia. They’re talking about kids who scream, disrupt class so no one else can learn, throw chairs, etc.

But then, you already knew that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

I don't think it's disingenuous. It wasn't long ago that physically disabled people could not access schools or other public resources., whether they were intellectually able or not. We can all agree that was wrong. Also, not too long ago, black people were not allowed to attend the publicly funded schools. Very wrong.

Now we are talking if kids who are disruptive/violent or special needs can attend school?

I don't want violence around my child, but where the distiction is made is impossible. Profoundly SN kids do have schools here in DC. Kids who are traumatized/on spectrum/LD probably do belong in public school. Private has been the option for people who want their kids insulated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I for one am grateful to the parents of the kids with dyslexia who have pretty much been the only group fighting for effective reading instruction for years. Without their efforts my child would have been another victim of the Lucy Calkins/ Fountas & Pinnell nonsense.

Universal design for instruction helps all learners.

People aren’t talking about dyslexia. They’re talking about kids who scream, disrupt class so no one else can learn, throw chairs, etc.

But then, you already knew that.

Kids with dyslexia can become the disruptive child after years of inappropriate instruction and shaming by being told to “just try harder”. These aren’t clean categories of disabilities. Unaddressed learning disabilities turn into anxiety and depression. Anxiety in kids can take many forms, some of them very disruptive.

But I guess you didn’t know that or care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

I’m so sick of people claiming there’s “no funding” or “not enough funding” in our schools. Schools in DC spend literally more than $22k per year per kid, average. Some are obviously a lot more. Schools in Florida spend $9k and that’s still high, relatively speaking. Other Western countries spend WAY less than we do in the US. People need to start acknowledging that if an average of $22k/year isn’t enough to get all students meeting a basic grade level standard then money is NOT the problem and more money is NOT the answer.

They can start by getting all the disruptive kids out of our classrooms and back into special facilities that are equipped (no scissors, yes metal detectors, yes guards) and trained (staff with personal defense training plus deescalation techniques etc plus aides floating around) to handle them.

The problem is the students and the parents. Not the schools. Schools don’t need more money or more anything. They need less of the thing that’s destroying them, which is disruptive students.

I don’t disagree that disruptive or violent kids don’t belong in mainstream classrooms and that FAPE needs a *massive* overhaul, but there is already a teacher shortage, and a dire teacher shortage in special ed. Where exactly are you planning to get all the teachers and staff for these metal detector schools again?

My thought exactly. Not based in reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

I’m so sick of people claiming there’s “no funding” or “not enough funding” in our schools. Schools in DC spend literally more than $22k per year per kid, average. Some are obviously a lot more. Schools in Florida spend $9k and that’s still high, relatively speaking. Other Western countries spend WAY less than we do in the US. People need to start acknowledging that if an average of $22k/year isn’t enough to get all students meeting a basic grade level standard then money is NOT the problem and more money is NOT the answer.

They can start by getting all the disruptive kids out of our classrooms and back into special facilities that are equipped (no scissors, yes metal detectors, yes guards) and trained (staff with personal defense training plus deescalation techniques etc plus aides floating around) to handle them.

So stupid. Teachers are QUITTING because they are subject to such abuse. The shooting in Newport News just one of many examples of teachers being forced to “teach” kids who are violently psychotic. They will come back if efforts are truly made to keep such violent children out of mainstream classrooms.
The problem is the students and the parents. Not the schools. Schools don’t need more money or more anything. They need less of the thing that’s destroying them, which is disruptive students.

I don’t disagree that disruptive or violent kids don’t belong in mainstream classrooms and that FAPE needs a *massive* overhaul, but there is already a teacher shortage, and a dire teacher shortage in special ed. Where exactly are you planning to get all the teachers and staff for these metal detector schools again?

My thought exactly. Not based in reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think the pendulum has swung a little too far in terms of the inclusion philosophy at public schools. It's not fair to the teachers or the neurotypical students when there are students in the class who have needs that can't be met in a normal classroom.

If the schools had the resources to provide sufficient staff to help teachers manage those students it might be a different story. But they don't.

What do you think is the solution?

Np special classrooms. Weren’t not talking about autistic kids or kids in wheelchairs. The disruptive kids have ODD. They’re violent, out of control and they hurt other kids.

And another pp is right about special aides. Every kid on earth would benefit from a special aide. Imagine all of the geniuses we could help to reach their own potential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you think our kids don’t tell us this stuff? We know.

What are you doing to help get troubled kids the help they need? (That the school frequently refuses to provide.)

What are the PARENTS doing to get troubled kids the help they need? (that the parents frequently refuse to provide)

A lot of the parents are the issue. A lot of these kids come from broken homes that are violent, abusive and their basic needs aren’t met. Their moms might have some drugs while pregnant too. School can’t do anything about the parents, but it can stop other students from being victimized and help other kids to learn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

I don't think it's disingenuous. It wasn't long ago that physically disabled people could not access schools or other public resources., whether they were intellectually able or not. We can all agree that was wrong. Also, not too long ago, black people were not allowed to attend the publicly funded schools. Very wrong.

Now we are talking if kids who are disruptive/violent or special needs can attend school?

I don't want violence around my child, but where the distiction is made is impossible. Profoundly SN kids do have schools here in DC. Kids who are traumatized/on spectrum/LD probably do belong in public school. Private has been the option for people who want their kids insulated.

Got it. So only rich kids should be given appropriate classrooms for learning. The needs of disruptive kids are more important than the needs of the majority of kids in a classroom to learn.

[Anonymous]

I’ve seen strategies that worked, but they are very expensive in terms of staffing: a professional counselor on staff who works with children and their families intensively (daily), full-time social workers and psychologists, and sufficient staffing of special education teachers (instead of minimally trained aides). This did miracles with violent and disruptive students, but grant funding lapsed and the school returned to standard staffing and problems returned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

I don't think it's disingenuous. It wasn't long ago that physically disabled people could not access schools or other public resources., whether they were intellectually able or not. We can all agree that was wrong. Also, not too long ago, black people were not allowed to attend the publicly funded schools. Very wrong.

Now we are talking if kids who are disruptive/violent or special needs can attend school?

I don't want violence around my child, but where the distiction is made is impossible. Profoundly SN kids do have schools here in DC. Kids who are traumatized/on spectrum/LD probably do belong in public school. Private has been the option for people who want their kids insulated.

Got it. So only rich kids should be given appropriate classrooms for learning. The needs of disruptive kids are more important than the needs of the majority of kids in a classroom to learn.

Chances are the extremely disruptive kids are going to get nowhere in life. The non-disruptive ones have potential being squandered.