Daydreaming of leaving the rat race/moving to Europe

[Anonymous]

You have an unrealistic vision of Europe as most Americans do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I sometimes daydream about moving to Europe, a mid sized city with tons of amenities but without the rat race. Where UMC people live off $7k per month for a family of 4 (or €5k for a couple being a lot of money), top public schools and private schools are €500 per month. Most of all, I wish I could leave behind the competitiveness and one-upmanship. A simpler life.

Where is this?

I don’t get the impression there is any more or less of a rat race there than here. Depends on where you live but london friends seem just as stressed as NYC friends.

Your problems follow you. You can just as easily live a lifestyle like that here.

Germany

I’m German. Wages are lower in Germany than in the DC area. The cost to buy a house in a desirable region is much higher. You’d be more likely to rent a small apartment.

I would prefer to move back because it’s my home, but I think it’s hard for most Americans.

Another actual German here. We are buying a place where I'm from originally, a large city there. We can do that because we made a lot of money here in the US and now are very well off by German standards. We also speak German, obviously. It's a very hard language to learn, and you have to learn it to emigrate unless you are a refugee. Private schools aren't really a thing in Germany, your kids should be in public. There is less of a rat race, but if you don't live in or around a large city, you will find it difficult to fit in. Even as a native, I don't fit in to other regions of Germany particularly well. Sort of like the NOrth/South thing here, but more than just accents.

“made a lot of money here” is the key!

That’s the thing. The average white collar worker will be financially way better off in the United States than in most Western European countries. If you’re a white collar worker in the US, you’ll make a lower salary, pay higher taxes and need to live in a much smaller home with less ability to outsource domestic chores. Yes, there are exceptions but on average Europeans have less disposable income than Americans.

You do not need to move to a different continent to slow down. Do that here! If you can’t do that here, I don’t see why you’d be able to do that in a European country. Sure, you’ll have to downsize housing and only have one vehicle but you’ll likely book a ton of weekend trips around Europe and simply keep up with the Joneses in other ways.

Bottom line I think you’re being foolish and will deeply regret it if you take a massive paycut to move somewhere that’s more expensive to live.

[Anonymous]

Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:europe is very expensive and houses are twice the amount compared to income when compared to the dc area. Good luck

+1. I don't understand OP's post at all. If you like "Europe" (because Europe is a monolith), and can figure out how to work there, move there. The US is only a rat race if you make it that way.
"

[Anonymous]

OP, we had similar thoughts when we lived in DC. We moved to a college town in the US instead and love it! It’s not Madrid but it embraces the beauty of life - slowing down, art, community - but all in English

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In most of these countries all government documents and government processes are in the native language. It took my sister about a year to learn enough Italian to get an Italian drivers license. . .


My sister was Ivy league educated. About the only job she could get was very low wage.

Ya'll are in fantasy world about living abroad.

I’m sure it can’t be that bad.

I mean, here in the US almost every document is available in Spanish, so surely the Italians have English copies of government documents by now. Why wouldn’t they?

Do you hear your logic?

“If we do it, surely they must do it.”

You would be a disaster living overseas .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In most of these countries all government documents and government processes are in the native language. It took my sister about a year to learn enough Italian to get an Italian drivers license. . .


My sister was Ivy league educated. About the only job she could get was very low wage.

Ya'll are in fantasy world about living abroad.

I’m sure it can’t be that bad.

I mean, here in the US almost every document is available in Spanish, so surely the Italians have English copies of government documents by now. Why wouldn’t they?

OP. I speak German without accent, fluently. I have an apartment there, a divers license, friends and family. My post wasn’t about asking whether I can do this (I know I can, BTDT), but I was sharing my thoughts about dreaming of an alternate life while I am stuck here for a few more years. Maybe 5, maybe 10. Who knows. I have my people there, not here. I already know that. I am not asking you whether I will fit in.

So, you would be moving back, and it sounds like here is not what you consider to be familiar.

That is very different than an American uprooting their life to seek something they have only fantasized about (after a short vacation somewhere),

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, was just talking about this with my neighbor. My choice would be either Ghent or Lille. Lille is really convenient for travel around Europe and is beautiful and very lively. Ghent is a bit more out of the way but it's a very short train to Brussels and from there you can train/plane to so many places very cheaply. Both have a lower cost of living than any of the major cities in Europe but still plenty of amenities and a high quality of life. Ghent in particular is just lovely, with canals and lovely architecture, and it's also very easy to do outdoorsy things outside the city thanks to excellent public transportation infrastructure and a very strong bike culture. You could easily live there without a car and never miss it. Lille is bigger, I think, and probably has more to do plus more diverse cuisine. I really like both places. I'm unsure if you could get by with just French and English in Ghent (it's in the Flemish part of Belgium) so that would be my main reticence about it. Lille of course you would be fine with just French, and to be honest I bet you could move there with just English and pick up enough French to get by pretty quickly, assuming you weren't working somewhere that required fluency.

I think about this all the time.

What about visa? Are you an EU citizen?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In most of these countries all government documents and government processes are in the native language. It took my sister about a year to learn enough Italian to get an Italian drivers license.

Her apartment was large by Italian standards. I'm guessing it was maybe 1600 square feet but the kitchen was very tiny by American standards. It would be what we would install in an efficiency motel room. The frig was like a dorm frig. She (and her husband) pretty much ended up shopping every day for foods to cook (even though Italian men don't do grocery shopping.) This became a hassle.

Utilities and cable took many months to get hooked up.
They bought a local tv and had cable but could never figure out how to get the tv working.

Requests for kickbacks or cash side deals to avoid paying government taxes were very very common. Everyone wants payment in cash with no documentation.

My sister wanted to buy a bike from the local bike shop. It took about 6 months of negotiations with the owner in order to close the deal to buy the bike.

Recycling was encouraged in her city but the recycling bins were randomly plunked down on streets. Cardboard was on her street. Cans was about 5 streets over. Etc. Recycling was a hassle.

My sister was Ivy league educated. About the only job she could get was very low wage.

Ya'll are in fantasy world about living abroad.

My experience living in Germany was only a bit better.

None of what was written about Italy is true for Germany, other than documents only being written in German. Italy is known to be corrupt and disorganized and chauvinist. Germany has its issue, but none of those. It's clean, orderly, and most everyone can speak English to help you out.

Germany absorbed a large subset of East Germans who do not speak English. I had a family member who lived and worked in Germany. It is a very orderly society. It is a very secular society despite having a lot of paid religious holidays off of work. My family member spoke pretty good German but found German people to be pretty unwelcoming to Americans and almost clannish and cold.

Our family recently moved to Germany for work and the clannish/cold description definitely jives with our experience to date. It’s also much harder to get around without German than we anticipated and far less efficient.

Intersting. We've been in Germany for a little over a year and have found Germans to be very different than the "cold" stereotype I've always heard. I'm working on learning German and try my best to speak it when we are out. Most people are very understanding of my language limitations and either work with me or switch to English. I was floored when one of the servers at our favorite local restaurant told me how much their staff likes me becuse I'm so friendly and nice. We were out at a wine tasting this past weekend with a group of Americans, and German patrons came over to say "hi" and "Prost" us. People always say "Morgen" when we are out for a walk or hike. Admittedly, I don't have German friends. My everyday social circle is expats, but I find Germans to be very friendly and helpful. I was bracing myself and our kids for it to not meet our expectations, but it has exceeded them. I love the walkability and the ease of transit and public spaces. I absolutely love it here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

As a European, the bolder makes me doubt everything else you wrote (which I would otherwise probably agree with!) I have never ever heard of anyone outside America liking or wanting American coffee or coffee cup sizes!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

As a European, the bolder makes me doubt everything else you wrote (which I would otherwise probably agree with!) I have never ever heard of anyone outside America liking or wanting American coffee or coffee cup sizes!

I agree. Never heard anything as remotely ridiculous as Europeans hating small coffee sizes. In fact, the opposite is true. They hate oversized American portions. If a European wants a large coffee, they’ll order a latte macchiato or similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

As a European, the bolder makes me doubt everything else you wrote (which I would otherwise probably agree with!) I have never ever heard of anyone outside America liking or wanting American coffee or coffee cup sizes!

I agree. Never heard anything as remotely ridiculous as Europeans hating small coffee sizes. In fact, the opposite is true. They hate oversized American portions. If a European wants a large coffee, they’ll order a latte macchiato or similar.

Actually, American style coffee shops are the new norm where I live in Europe. Basically, most things here are becoming Americanized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In most of these countries all government documents and government processes are in the native language. It took my sister about a year to learn enough Italian to get an Italian drivers license. . .


My sister was Ivy league educated. About the only job she could get was very low wage.

Ya'll are in fantasy world about living abroad.

I’m sure it can’t be that bad.

I mean, here in the US almost every document is available in Spanish, so surely the Italians have English copies of government documents by now. Why wouldn’t they?

OP. I speak German without accent, fluently. I have an apartment there, a divers license, friends and family. My post wasn’t about asking whether I can do this (I know I can, BTDT), but I was sharing my thoughts about dreaming of an alternate life while I am stuck here for a few more years. Maybe 5, maybe 10. Who knows. I have my people there, not here. I already know that. I am not asking you whether I will fit in.

So, you would be moving back, and it sounds like here is not what you consider to be familiar.

That is very different than an American uprooting their life to seek something they have only fantasized about (after a short vacation somewhere),

OP’s original post was oddly worded, if this is the case. OP was trying to make the situation about the “American rat race,” when it’s really about yearning for the familiar.

I suspect OP never raised children in Germany & is idealizing what life would be like there because she’s comparing a past life in which she had fewer responsibilities to a life that includes being the parent of teens. It’s also relevant that she said her husband hates it there. Maybe OP would prefer to live in Germany, but that doesn’t mean she has to be unhappy where she is — there’s a pretty good chance that OP is blaming her unhappiness on where she lives, when it really has another source (been there, done that).

[Anonymous]

Maybe just try a different state. There's a lot more to the USA than Florida and DC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I sometimes daydream about moving to Europe, a mid sized city with tons of amenities but without the rat race. Where UMC people live off $7k per month for a family of 4 (or €5k for a couple being a lot of money), top public schools and private schools are €500 per month. Most of all, I wish I could leave behind the competitiveness and one-upmanship. A simpler life.

Where is this?

I don’t get the impression there is any more or less of a rat race there than here. Depends on where you live but london friends seem just as stressed as NYC friends.

Your problems follow you. You can just as easily live a lifestyle like that here.

Germany

I’m German. Wages are lower in Germany than in the DC area. The cost to buy a house in a desirable region is much higher. You’d be more likely to rent a small apartment.

I would prefer to move back because it’s my home, but I think it’s hard for most Americans.

Another actual German here. We are buying a place where I'm from originally, a large city there. We can do that because we made a lot of money here in the US and now are very well off by German standards. We also speak German, obviously. It's a very hard language to learn, and you have to learn it to emigrate unless you are a refugee. Private schools aren't really a thing in Germany, your kids should be in public. There is less of a rat race, but if you don't live in or around a large city, you will find it difficult to fit in. Even as a native, I don't fit in to other regions of Germany particularly well. Sort of like the NOrth/South thing here, but more than just accents.

“made a lot of money here” is the key!

That’s the thing. The average white collar worker will be financially way better off in the United States than in most Western European countries. If you’re a white collar worker in the US, you’ll make a lower salary, pay higher taxes and need to live in a much smaller home with less ability to outsource domestic chores. Yes, there are exceptions but on average Europeans have less disposable income than Americans.

You do not need to move to a different continent to slow down. Do that here! If you can’t do that here, I don’t see why you’d be able to do that in a European country. Sure, you’ll have to downsize housing and only have one vehicle but you’ll likely book a ton of weekend trips around Europe and simply keep up with the Joneses in other ways.

Bottom line I think you’re being foolish and will deeply regret it if you take a massive paycut to move somewhere that’s more expensive to live.

I am someone who did "do that here" and I have a different take.

My DH and I made a conscious choice to live a simpler life outside the rat race for our mental health and family stability. We both work jobs that pay less than we could make elsewhere, but afford us more regular hours and are less stressful. Doing so means we choose to live in a smaller home, we cook at home and don't eat out as much, we don't outsource much (we clean our own house and only get babysitters for occasional date nights), and just generally live a simpler life.

The problem is that in the US, it is hard to find peers doing the same. We have many friends who say they admire our choices and wish they could do the same thing, but then there is always a reason why they can't (I'm not judging them, the reasons are money and worrying about retirement and college funds, I get it). We love our life but we feel out of step with American culture because we've done the "weird" thing and chosen to prioritize family life and mental health over income and achievement.

We do talk about moving to Western Europe at some point and have a savings fund set up for that possibility. We have friends in Germany, Austria, and the UK, and their lives are much more similar to ours. Where our US friends are making partner and buying vacation homes, our European friends are living in apartments and taking two week summer holidays with their kids to moderately priced destinations elsewhere in the EU or UK. It's much more our speed.