Daydreaming of leaving the rat race/moving to Europe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

Daycare in the UK is expensive. University in the UK is also expensive.

And I've never heard a British person complain about the size of coffee cups. Or Germans.

Germany has loads going on. Festivals all the time. Christmas markets, Springfest, Oktoberfest, Easter parades/Fasching, free concerts, literature festivals, chocolate festivals, Medieval festivals, etc etc. We were never stuck for things to do when we lived there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I sometimes daydream about moving to Europe, a mid sized city with tons of amenities but without the rat race. Where UMC people live off $7k per month for a family of 4 (or €5k for a couple being a lot of money), top public schools and private schools are €500 per month. Most of all, I wish I could leave behind the competitiveness and one-upmanship. A simpler life.

Where is this?

I don’t get the impression there is any more or less of a rat race there than here. Depends on where you live but london friends seem just as stressed as NYC friends.

Your problems follow you. You can just as easily live a lifestyle like that here.

Germany

I’m German. Wages are lower in Germany than in the DC area. The cost to buy a house in a desirable region is much higher. You’d be more likely to rent a small apartment.

I would prefer to move back because it’s my home, but I think it’s hard for most Americans.

Another actual German here. We are buying a place where I'm from originally, a large city there. We can do that because we made a lot of money here in the US and now are very well off by German standards. We also speak German, obviously. It's a very hard language to learn, and you have to learn it to emigrate unless you are a refugee. Private schools aren't really a thing in Germany, your kids should be in public. There is less of a rat race, but if you don't live in or around a large city, you will find it difficult to fit in. Even as a native, I don't fit in to other regions of Germany particularly well. Sort of like the NOrth/South thing here, but more than just accents.

“made a lot of money here” is the key!

That’s the thing. The average white collar worker will be financially way better off in the United States than in most Western European countries. If you’re a white collar worker in the US, you’ll make a lower salary, pay higher taxes and need to live in a much smaller home with less ability to outsource domestic chores. Yes, there are exceptions but on average Europeans have less disposable income than Americans.

You do not need to move to a different continent to slow down. Do that here! If you can’t do that here, I don’t see why you’d be able to do that in a European country. Sure, you’ll have to downsize housing and only have one vehicle but you’ll likely book a ton of weekend trips around Europe and simply keep up with the Joneses in other ways.

Bottom line I think you’re being foolish and will deeply regret it if you take a massive paycut to move somewhere that’s more expensive to live.

I am someone who did "do that here" and I have a different take.

My DH and I made a conscious choice to live a simpler life outside the rat race for our mental health and family stability. We both work jobs that pay less than we could make elsewhere, but afford us more regular hours and are less stressful. Doing so means we choose to live in a smaller home, we cook at home and don't eat out as much, we don't outsource much (we clean our own house and only get babysitters for occasional date nights), and just generally live a simpler life.

The problem is that in the US, it is hard to find peers doing the same. We have many friends who say they admire our choices and wish they could do the same thing, but then there is always a reason why they can't (I'm not judging them, the reasons are money and worrying about retirement and college funds, I get it). We love our life but we feel out of step with American culture because we've done the "weird" thing and chosen to prioritize family life and mental health over income and achievement.

We do talk about moving to Western Europe at some point and have a savings fund set up for that possibility. We have friends in Germany, Austria, and the UK, and their lives are much more similar to ours. Where our US friends are making partner and buying vacation homes, our European friends are living in apartments and taking two week summer holidays with their kids to moderately priced destinations elsewhere in the EU or UK. It's much more our speed.

+1 I agree that it's not always easy to find this mentality in the U.S. We did get more of it in the Upper Midwest once we left DC, but my friends in the Netherlands and Italy are much more working to live than most back home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I sometimes daydream about moving to Europe, a mid sized city with tons of amenities but without the rat race. Where UMC people live off $7k per month for a family of 4 (or €5k for a couple being a lot of money), top public schools and private schools are €500 per month. Most of all, I wish I could leave behind the competitiveness and one-upmanship. A simpler life.

Where is this?

I don’t get the impression there is any more or less of a rat race there than here. Depends on where you live but london friends seem just as stressed as NYC friends.

Your problems follow you. You can just as easily live a lifestyle like that here.

Germany

I’m German. Wages are lower in Germany than in the DC area. The cost to buy a house in a desirable region is much higher. You’d be more likely to rent a small apartment.

I would prefer to move back because it’s my home, but I think it’s hard for most Americans.

Another actual German here. We are buying a place where I'm from originally, a large city there. We can do that because we made a lot of money here in the US and now are very well off by German standards. We also speak German, obviously. It's a very hard language to learn, and you have to learn it to emigrate unless you are a refugee. Private schools aren't really a thing in Germany, your kids should be in public. There is less of a rat race, but if you don't live in or around a large city, you will find it difficult to fit in. Even as a native, I don't fit in to other regions of Germany particularly well. Sort of like the NOrth/South thing here, but more than just accents.

“made a lot of money here” is the key!

That’s the thing. The average white collar worker will be financially way better off in the United States than in most Western European countries. If you’re a white collar worker in the US, you’ll make a lower salary, pay higher taxes and need to live in a much smaller home with less ability to outsource domestic chores. Yes, there are exceptions but on average Europeans have less disposable income than Americans.

You do not need to move to a different continent to slow down. Do that here! If you can’t do that here, I don’t see why you’d be able to do that in a European country. Sure, you’ll have to downsize housing and only have one vehicle but you’ll likely book a ton of weekend trips around Europe and simply keep up with the Joneses in other ways.

Bottom line I think you’re being foolish and will deeply regret it if you take a massive paycut to move somewhere that’s more expensive to live.

I am someone who did "do that here" and I have a different take.

My DH and I made a conscious choice to live a simpler life outside the rat race for our mental health and family stability. We both work jobs that pay less than we could make elsewhere, but afford us more regular hours and are less stressful. Doing so means we choose to live in a smaller home, we cook at home and don't eat out as much, we don't outsource much (we clean our own house and only get babysitters for occasional date nights), and just generally live a simpler life.

The problem is that in the US, it is hard to find peers doing the same. We have many friends who say they admire our choices and wish they could do the same thing, but then there is always a reason why they can't (I'm not judging them, the reasons are money and worrying about retirement and college funds, I get it). We love our life but we feel out of step with American culture because we've done the "weird" thing and chosen to prioritize family life and mental health over income and achievement.

We do talk about moving to Western Europe at some point and have a savings fund set up for that possibility. We have friends in Germany, Austria, and the UK, and their lives are much more similar to ours. Where our US friends are making partner and buying vacation homes, our European friends are living in apartments and taking two week summer holidays with their kids to moderately priced destinations elsewhere in the EU or UK. It's much more our speed.

Ok so I have quite a few European friends living in Western European countries. I get the impression that they want just as much stuff and as many experiences as we do. They simply don’t have the means and never will. It’s kind of like how I will never afford a mega yacht so I don’t sit around thinking about it or even really want one. I get that Europeans don’t have to worry as much about healthcare or college, but they seem just as stressed financially as we do.

I actually don’t get the impression that my friends in more LCOL or MCOL locations in the US are that concerned about healthcare or college savings. I am only friends with white collar workers and they have their healthcare from their employer. I think the lack of large flagship universities in the NE makes people a little crazier about admissions and costs. In my home state the large state university is $9k a year in tuition. I get that you have to pay room and board too but my friends are already paying these expenses for their child at home.

My point is you can easily live a less stressful lifestyle really anywhere in the US outside of certain places like the upper east side of Manhattan. If you are keeping up with the Jones here you’ll do in in Europe. Instead of caring about X, you’ll care about Y.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

As a European, the bolder makes me doubt everything else you wrote (which I would otherwise probably agree with!) I have never ever heard of anyone outside America liking or wanting American coffee or coffee cup sizes!

My old German boss hated the tiny coffee cups. He loved the giant Dunkin’ Donuts coffee when he visited America

[Anonymous]

Earlier this month, democracy literally died in the USA, and it’s not coming back in our lifetime. Plus there’s a war on women going on here.

So yeah, Europe is the obvious choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

As a European, the bolder makes me doubt everything else you wrote (which I would otherwise probably agree with!) I have never ever heard of anyone outside America liking or wanting American coffee or coffee cup sizes!

My old German boss hated the tiny coffee cups. He loved the giant Dunkin’ Donuts coffee when he visited America

Germans are weird

Even when you cross from Ticino to German-speaking Switzerland, aesthetics and taste get so much worse

Germanics are just not aesthetes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In most of these countries all government documents and government processes are in the native language. It took my sister about a year to learn enough Italian to get an Italian drivers license. . .


My sister was Ivy league educated. About the only job she could get was very low wage.

Ya'll are in fantasy world about living abroad.

I’m sure it can’t be that bad.

I mean, here in the US almost every document is available in Spanish, so surely the Italians have English copies of government documents by now. Why wouldn’t they?

I live in Italy now, and if you want to get an actual Italian license, you need to speak intermediate Italian. We get special licenses through our status here, and while yes, unemployment is high and housing much more modest for locals, the focus on the family and working to live is also noticeable. There are tradeoffs in every situation. I have lived all over the world, and can't think of a place that doesn't have substantial pros and cons. It all depends on what you value. I love living near the sea, but we may have a chance to move to Benelux, where I lived 20 years go, and yes the weather is more dreary. But everything works really well in terms of govt services and public transportation, especially biking infrastructure which is top notch. Where we live now is a driving culture with horrible roads. So we'd give up 300+ days of sunshine and amazing beaches for cloudier days but car free lifestyle. Europe isn't a monolith - every country is slightly different, sometimes drastically. America is definitely a top place for making money, no question. Yet it also comes with a long list of negatives.

lombardia and piemonte would provide way better blend of Italian upsides and Benelux order

Belgium and NL are so boring to live in with awful food and weather/nature

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Earlier this month, democracy literally died in the USA, and it’s not coming back in our lifetime. Plus there’s a war on women going on here.

So yeah, Europe is the obvious choice.

You realize most European countries have stricter or just as strict abortion laws, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

As a European, the bolder makes me doubt everything else you wrote (which I would otherwise probably agree with!) I have never ever heard of anyone outside America liking or wanting American coffee or coffee cup sizes!

My old German boss hated the tiny coffee cups. He loved the giant Dunkin’ Donuts coffee when he visited America

So you know one German man who liked big coffees and you deduce that all 500M Europeans must be the same? Don’t you even realize how idiotic this sounds?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

Just because you don’t like Germans, doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with you. As I always say, there are so many ways of life and you have to fit in where you live. Life is much better that way. Being an outsider is never a good or comfortable thing.

As a European, the bolder makes me doubt everything else you wrote (which I would otherwise probably agree with!) I have never ever heard of anyone outside America liking or wanting American coffee or coffee cup sizes!

My old German boss hated the tiny coffee cups. He loved the giant Dunkin’ Donuts coffee when he visited America

Germans are weird

Even when you cross from Ticino to German-speaking Switzerland, aesthetics and taste get so much worse

Germanics are just not aesthetes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I sometimes daydream about moving to Europe, a mid sized city with tons of amenities but without the rat race. Where UMC people live off $7k per month for a family of 4 (or €5k for a couple being a lot of money), top public schools and private schools are €500 per month. Most of all, I wish I could leave behind the competitiveness and one-upmanship. A simpler life.

Where is this?

I don’t get the impression there is any more or less of a rat race there than here. Depends on where you live but london friends seem just as stressed as NYC friends.

Your problems follow you. You can just as easily live a lifestyle like that here.

Germany

I’m German. Wages are lower in Germany than in the DC area. The cost to buy a house in a desirable region is much higher. You’d be more likely to rent a small apartment.

I would prefer to move back because it’s my home, but I think it’s hard for most Americans.

Another actual German here. We are buying a place where I'm from originally, a large city there. We can do that because we made a lot of money here in the US and now are very well off by German standards. We also speak German, obviously. It's a very hard language to learn, and you have to learn it to emigrate unless you are a refugee. Private schools aren't really a thing in Germany, your kids should be in public. There is less of a rat race, but if you don't live in or around a large city, you will find it difficult to fit in. Even as a native, I don't fit in to other regions of Germany particularly well. Sort of like the NOrth/South thing here, but more than just accents.

“made a lot of money here” is the key!

That’s the thing. The average white collar worker will be financially way better off in the United States than in most Western European countries. If you’re a white collar worker in the US, you’ll make a lower salary, pay higher taxes and need to live in a much smaller home with less ability to outsource domestic chores. Yes, there are exceptions but on average Europeans have less disposable income than Americans.

You do not need to move to a different continent to slow down. Do that here! If you can’t do that here, I don’t see why you’d be able to do that in a European country. Sure, you’ll have to downsize housing and only have one vehicle but you’ll likely book a ton of weekend trips around Europe and simply keep up with the Joneses in other ways.

Bottom line I think you’re being foolish and will deeply regret it if you take a massive paycut to move somewhere that’s more expensive to live.

I am someone who did "do that here" and I have a different take.

My DH and I made a conscious choice to live a simpler life outside the rat race for our mental health and family stability. We both work jobs that pay less than we could make elsewhere, but afford us more regular hours and are less stressful. Doing so means we choose to live in a smaller home, we cook at home and don't eat out as much, we don't outsource much (we clean our own house and only get babysitters for occasional date nights), and just generally live a simpler life.

The problem is that in the US, it is hard to find peers doing the same. We have many friends who say they admire our choices and wish they could do the same thing, but then there is always a reason why they can't (I'm not judging them, the reasons are money and worrying about retirement and college funds, I get it). We love our life but we feel out of step with American culture because we've done the "weird" thing and chosen to prioritize family life and mental health over income and achievement.

We do talk about moving to Western Europe at some point and have a savings fund set up for that possibility. We have friends in Germany, Austria, and the UK, and their lives are much more similar to ours. Where our US friends are making partner and buying vacation homes, our European friends are living in apartments and taking two week summer holidays with their kids to moderately priced destinations elsewhere in the EU or UK. It's much more our speed.

Ok so I have quite a few European friends living in Western European countries. I get the impression that they want just as much stuff and as many experiences as we do. They simply don’t have the means and never will. It’s kind of like how I will never afford a mega yacht so I don’t sit around thinking about it or even really want one. I get that Europeans don’t have to worry as much about healthcare or college, but they seem just as stressed financially as we do.

I actually don’t get the impression that my friends in more LCOL or MCOL locations in the US are that concerned about healthcare or college savings. I am only friends with white collar workers and they have their healthcare from their employer. I think the lack of large flagship universities in the NE makes people a little crazier about admissions and costs. In my home state the large state university is $9k a year in tuition. I get that you have to pay room and board too but my friends are already paying these expenses for their child at home.

My point is you can easily live a less stressful lifestyle really anywhere in the US outside of certain places like the upper east side of Manhattan. If you are keeping up with the Jones here you’ll do in in Europe. Instead of caring about X, you’ll care about Y.

I don’t know about “getting the impression” - what does this even mean? These are just acquaintances that don’t even talk to you like a friend? So how would you even know? I don’t know anyone who feels deprived because they’re not driving an SUV, because they do t live in a MacMansion etc. They take vacations in Europe just like you all - it’s just closer for them. There’s no point from an aesthetic perspective to go to - let’s say Maine - when Croatia is so much more beautiful and closer/convenient. Sure, everyone could always use more money, don’t we all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Earlier this month, democracy literally died in the USA, and it’s not coming back in our lifetime. Plus there’s a war on women going on here.

So yeah, Europe is the obvious choice.

You realize most European countries have stricter or just as strict abortion laws, right?

No way. I cannot believe that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Earlier this month, democracy literally died in the USA, and it’s not coming back in our lifetime. Plus there’s a war on women going on here.

So yeah, Europe is the obvious choice.

You realize most European countries have stricter or just as strict abortion laws, right?

No way. I cannot believe that.

It’s true in that most countries allow up until completion of first trimester. Otoh, it’s much more accessible because there are more clinics. Can’t speak for all countries though unlike PP who apparently knows a ALL EU countries’ regulations.

[Anonymous]

I think it's very amusing that anyone considers Europe as a place without a rat race. Europe invented it. People who want to escape the rat race in Europe normally end up in places like Goa or Bali.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since 2017 I have worked for European companies. As such I visited Europe a lot. My current job is remote for a UK company. I can work anywhere in my job. In fact 90 percent of co workers in Europe. I also can work in Europe if I felt like it. My work does not care.

In reality UK and German co-workers love their cheap day care, colleges and medical when unemployed or retired. They also love as not at Will employment have contracts.

But they hate low pay. Hate the weather. Hate the high taxes, hate the tiny houses, cars, and even coffee cups.

Very very very few even though at my last two companies immigrated Europe to US and even less US to Europe.

You can visit. I went to Ireland two weeks this summer. I loved it! But to be honest I had a hand full of things to see when done. You are kinda trapped in your country.

I been to Germany 8 times for work. It is very big and pretty boring. It is very bleak in the winter as very cloudy damp and dark

As a European, the bolder makes me doubt everything else you wrote (which I would otherwise probably agree with!) I have never ever heard of anyone outside America liking or wanting American coffee or coffee cup sizes!

My old German boss hated the tiny coffee cups. He loved the giant Dunkin’ Donuts coffee when he visited America

Germans are weird

Even when you cross from Ticino to German-speaking Switzerland, aesthetics and taste get so much worse

Germanics are just not aesthetes

Congrats on being a racist!

So ignorant.