Asian kindergarten students more likely to display advanced math, science skills, new study finds

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To quote the study, "The antecedent factor of family socioeconomic status and the propensity factors of student science, mathematics, and reading achievement by kindergarten consistently explained whether students displayed advanced science or mathematics achievement during first, second, third, fourth, or fifth grade."

So this isn't about race, it's really about socioeconomic status of the family.

Even poor East Asians send their kids to get extra math instruction, per all the discussions of NYC's elite public schools. I'd say thats a cultural/racial issue and NOT a social economic one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To quote the study, "The antecedent factor of family socioeconomic status and the propensity factors of student science, mathematics, and reading achievement by kindergarten consistently explained whether students displayed advanced science or mathematics achievement during first, second, third, fourth, or fifth grade."

So this isn't about race, it's really about socioeconomic status of the family.

Race and SES are highly correlated

Not always. In NYC, for example, the Asian community there is among the poorest if not the poorest. Yet, they are highly represented in NYC magnet schools.

Highly correlated does not mean perfectly correlated but there is a strong connection. We can point to the outliers but those remain outliers.

Check the free/reduced lunch for NYC elite schools. Then check the demographics of said schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone undertake such a study?

More evidence that the achievement gap starts in the home, not the school system.

This is probably the bigger issue if Asian's (and some others like us) supplement at home and put our kids in more academically geared preschools. Maybe we should start looking at the play based preschools that are not preparing kids for K.

Oh you guys! Always cutting your nose to spite your face, no? Make everything and everyone dumber. It will not prevent Asian-American parents from teaching their kids at home. Asian-Americans are educated parents. They will at least pass on their own skills and knowledge to their children.

Achievement gap is a symptom of a huge problem. The problem is that the home life of an underperforming student is typically not conducive to academic achievement. Achievement gap has nothing to with Asian-Americans. That is not the problem of Asian-Americans. It is a problem that Asians did not create, did not contribute, and can not solve. I don't understand why Asian-Americans are targeted because others are failing? Can you explain to me the logic of that?

Asians are often highly represented in magnet schools and academic competitions. There are people who want representation, and Asians make it harder to achieve it. Hence the hostility. It's in-group/out-group behavior.

Some of it's also cultural. For whatever reason, there's a disdain for nerds and strivers in this country, and many Asians fit that description. Sports is okay. Not academics.

But you're right. It's not really a problem Asians created.

This is a big factor. (Also the general anti-intellectualism in this country.) For example, my child has been taking classes for the past few years at AOPS. At pick-up time, the students who stream out of the building are 95% of East Asian and South Asian heritage. It’s a priority extracurricular for those families.

I challenge you to take a kid who does not have the brain power and interest in Math to sit and do AOPS. My Asian-American STEM magnet kid has been a straight A student who scored a 1600 in SAT. 5 in AP Calc BC in 10th grade etc. He was never able to sit and do Kumon or AOPS etc because it was not his cup of tea. He is capable in Math but he does not like Math more than anything else. For the 95% of Asians doing AOPS, it is something to do with the fact that it is a self-selecting crowd. A whole lot more Asian-Americans do not do AOPS. However, the fact that they are swimmers, tennis player, musicians, golfers, painters, debaters, martial artists ...all of these things are deliberately disregarded.

The problem for most people is mainly that Asian-Americans take each challenge and overcome it. A decade ago, Asian-Americans were good in Math but lagging behind in English. Now they excel in ELA and FL as well.

By having a civil war against Asian-Americans in academics, USA is harming itself. It is not as if other countries will also start NOT educating their children in solidarity with underperformers in USA.

I am the PP you are responding to. I agree that a kid who lacks brain power or interest is going to struggle with AOPS. And there are certainly some kids in my child’s class, according to my child, who don’t really want to be there and don’t do very well. My point is that the families are prioritizing that as an extracurricular, signaling to their children the importance of academic achievement.

my kid hated being there and struggled but it still took him from the middle of the class to the top in just a few months.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone undertake such a study?

More evidence that the achievement gap starts in the home, not the school system.

This is probably the bigger issue if Asian's (and some others like us) supplement at home and put our kids in more academically geared preschools. Maybe we should start looking at the play based preschools that are not preparing kids for K.

My kids went to an entirely play-based preschool and we never supplemented with academics. We did read to our kids a lot. Both kids were plenty prepared for Kindergarten. And actually tons of kids from our preschool are in AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone undertake such a study?

More evidence that the achievement gap starts in the home, not the school system.

This is probably the bigger issue if Asian's (and some others like us) supplement at home and put our kids in more academically geared preschools. Maybe we should start looking at the play based preschools that are not preparing kids for K.

My kids went to an entirely play-based preschool and we never supplemented with academics. We did read to our kids a lot. Both kids were plenty prepared for Kindergarten. And actually tons of kids from our preschool are in AAP.

Same here. My kid went on to TJ and was a National Merit Scholar, while doing sports all three seasons at TJ and also participating in an outside of school high level competitive sport. There was never a need for outside supplementation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone undertake such a study?

More evidence that the achievement gap starts in the home, not the school system.

This is probably the bigger issue if Asian's (and some others like us) supplement at home and put our kids in more academically geared preschools. Maybe we should start looking at the play based preschools that are not preparing kids for K.

My kids went to an entirely play-based preschool and we never supplemented with academics. We did read to our kids a lot. Both kids were plenty prepared for Kindergarten. And actually tons of kids from our preschool are in AAP.

Same here. My kid went on to TJ and was a National Merit Scholar, while doing sports all three seasons at TJ and also participating in an outside of school high level competitive sport. There was never a need for outside supplementation.

What happens at home is more important than outside enrichment, but outside enrichment can help. Outside enrichment is especially beneficial for underachieving kids who need the practice and/or exposure. Unfortunately, the families that need it the most are typically the families that are not aware of it, can’t afford it, or don’t care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think everyone knows that achievement starts in the home. Is this even up for debate?

Some of this is cultural. One of the other moms (a recent immigrant) in my kid's K classroom looked aghast when I said I'd taught my kid to read. She said no way- isn't that what school is for? She didn't want to mess up the instruction her kid would receive in K.

I don't know any Asian immigrant who would be aghast at teaching your kids to read at home.

Even I a non-asian know you can't rely on public school to teach much of anything in early ES. They will ignore anyone who is not below grade level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think everyone knows that achievement starts in the home. Is this even up for debate?

Some of this is cultural. One of the other moms (a recent immigrant) in my kid's K classroom looked aghast when I said I'd taught my kid to read. She said no way- isn't that what school is for? She didn't want to mess up the instruction her kid would receive in K.

I don't know any Asian immigrant who would be aghast at teaching your kids to read at home.

Even I a non-asian know you can't rely on public school to teach much of anything in early ES. They will ignore anyone who is not below grade level.

You’d be surprised by the number of families that place all of the responsibility on schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To quote the study, "The antecedent factor of family socioeconomic status and the propensity factors of student science, mathematics, and reading achievement by kindergarten consistently explained whether students displayed advanced science or mathematics achievement during first, second, third, fourth, or fifth grade."

So this isn't about race, it's really about socioeconomic status of the family.

Even poor East Asians send their kids to get extra math instruction, per all the discussions of NYC's elite public schools. I'd say thats a cultural/racial issue and NOT a social economic one.

It's actually more common with lower-income Asians. We are UMC Asians (born here) and our kids are doing fun activities and classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many immigrant cultures emphasize school and studying because we escaped our homes for better opportunities. It is true that some immigrants are highly educated in their home countries. I am not Asian but was a white immigrant going to one of the magnet NYC schools back in the day. Yes, most of the AP classes were a mix of Asian and immigrant white kids. Poor, most of us were poor, b/c we were recent immigrants. But school was a priority. Just like it is for my kids now. As others have said, the vast majority of schools don't care about bright students who are not causing problems in class, so as a parent, I supplement.

There is nothing wrong with seeking outstanding education as a means to elevate one's children out of circumstances of poverty and lesser resources.

Where it becomes problematic is when the obsession turns not to educational quality, but educational PRESTIGE, and especially for those families who already have significant means.

I wouldn't have an issue with the obsession with TJ and the Ivies in our community if it were borne of the idea that those are genuinely the best schools that provide the best education. But they're not, and everyone knows they're not. They're just ranked highly because they're extremely selective.

We (or our parents) had situations that we needed to escape with educational prestige. The kids who are in school now, who are the progeny of those folks who did escape, don't have those same issues. They will largely do exceptionally well wherever they go.

And this is why people use the phrase "opportunity hoarding" to describe us. And they're right.

Who are you even talking about? I'm Asian-American and seriously you don't think lots of educated white UMC parents feel exactly this way? You don't think white parents of private school kids in Bethesda are plotting for Ivies and "opportunity hoarding"?

GMAFB

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many immigrant cultures emphasize school and studying because we escaped our homes for better opportunities. It is true that some immigrants are highly educated in their home countries. I am not Asian but was a white immigrant going to one of the magnet NYC schools back in the day. Yes, most of the AP classes were a mix of Asian and immigrant white kids. Poor, most of us were poor, b/c we were recent immigrants. But school was a priority. Just like it is for my kids now. As others have said, the vast majority of schools don't care about bright students who are not causing problems in class, so as a parent, I supplement.

There is nothing wrong with seeking outstanding education as a means to elevate one's children out of circumstances of poverty and lesser resources.

Where it becomes problematic is when the obsession turns not to educational quality, but educational PRESTIGE, and especially for those families who already have significant means.

I wouldn't have an issue with the obsession with TJ and the Ivies in our community if it were borne of the idea that those are genuinely the best schools that provide the best education. But they're not, and everyone knows they're not. They're just ranked highly because they're extremely selective.

We (or our parents) had situations that we needed to escape with educational prestige. The kids who are in school now, who are the progeny of those folks who did escape, don't have those same issues. They will largely do exceptionally well wherever they go.

And this is why people use the phrase "opportunity hoarding" to describe us. And they're right.

Who are you even talking about? I'm Asian-American and seriously you don't think lots of educated white UMC parents feel exactly this way? You don't think white parents of private school kids in Bethesda are plotting for Ivies and "opportunity hoarding"?

GMAFB

1000%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Chinese- and Indian-ancestry kids who are in America predominately come from families who could, for cultural, biological, and genetic reasons, study hard and perform well on tests. In many cases these traits were selected for over millennia. America is fortunate to have these smart and hard-working families and kids. Hopefully their smarts and grit doesn’t get beat out of them by the system.

It’s insane that we can’t say these Asian kids perform better in part because they are just biologically smarter than the average non-Asian American kid. Academic achievement is at least 50% genetic in early childhood, and even more so as kids get older.

It may be cultural but it’s not genetic. Academics are largely about inputs and dose-dependent. Any kid send to AOPS for a year will outperform peers and see big personal increases in scores.

Studies on adoptive children suggest a very, very large role for genetics.

You can also compare how similar fraternal twins are on educational outcomes or IQ to identical twins. These studies also show an enormous genetic effect and almost no effect of family environment.

Any study that does not attempt to control for the genetic effect on academic achievement (via a twin or adoptive design) is close to useless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The answer is universal pre-k, late school closing and year round school. Any gap in the school schedule is an opportunity for parents to widen the socio - economic and racial gap for their own kids by supplementing privately. There shouldn’t be that gap in the system:

+1 In lower performing schools, this is what is needed. You need more time with those kids.

I believe there are two MCPS ES with high FARMS rate where they are experimenting with a lengthened school calendar. Not sure how long this has been happening. Will be interesting to see the outcome.

There is a teacher shortage. The kids in classrooms are very disruptive. Restorative justice is penalizing teachers and students who want to study. If your education system is so broken, what kind of teachers are we producing?

The problem is not that many children are below grade level. The problem is that children who are on grade level and above are not being educated either at school. The first order of the day should be that kids who are bright and capable of being educated should be removed from classrooms with low performers and put in very supported advanced learning classrooms. Next, you need to pour in money and staff to intensively tutor the kids who are behind. You cannot have everyone in the same classroom.

I’m so glad that the revised FCPS admission policy for TJ is something everyone can agree on. Take the cohort of students who have separated themselves from every school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone undertake such a study?

More evidence that the achievement gap starts in the home, not the school system.

This is probably the bigger issue if Asian's (and some others like us) supplement at home and put our kids in more academically geared preschools. Maybe we should start looking at the play based preschools that are not preparing kids for K.

My kids went to an entirely play-based preschool and we never supplemented with academics. We did read to our kids a lot. Both kids were plenty prepared for Kindergarten. And actually tons of kids from our preschool are in AAP.

Same here. My kid went on to TJ and was a National Merit Scholar, while doing sports all three seasons at TJ and also participating in an outside of school high level competitive sport. There was never a need for outside supplementation.

These are the students being left behind, now. According to DCUM, your child is a figment of the imagination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The answer is universal pre-k, late school closing and year round school. Any gap in the school schedule is an opportunity for parents to widen the socio - economic and racial gap for their own kids by supplementing privately. There shouldn’t be that gap in the system:

+1 In lower performing schools, this is what is needed. You need more time with those kids.

I believe there are two MCPS ES with high FARMS rate where they are experimenting with a lengthened school calendar. Not sure how long this has been happening. Will be interesting to see the outcome.

There is a teacher shortage. The kids in classrooms are very disruptive. Restorative justice is penalizing teachers and students who want to study. If your education system is so broken, what kind of teachers are we producing?

The problem is not that many children are below grade level. The problem is that children who are on grade level and above are not being educated either at school. The first order of the day should be that kids who are bright and capable of being educated should be removed from classrooms with low performers and put in very supported advanced learning classrooms. Next, you need to pour in money and staff to intensively tutor the kids who are behind. You cannot have everyone in the same classroom.

I’m so glad that the revised FCPS admission policy for TJ is something everyone can agree on. Take the cohort of students who have separated themselves from every school.

Actually I do not agree on the revised FCPS admission policy of TJ because it is using race rather than merit. They do this by lowering the bar and then taking the kids who meet the bar. That is fine too. These "pity admit" will fail in college, job or life. It is not as if they are going to handle TJ either. Where is their wonderful foundation at home? Those who were capable (mainly Nigerian immigrants), their kids were already in TJ. They were the part of 2%-3% URM kids.