Asian kindergarten students more likely to display advanced math, science skills, new study finds

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To quote the study, "The antecedent factor of family socioeconomic status and the propensity factors of student science, mathematics, and reading achievement by kindergarten consistently explained whether students displayed advanced science or mathematics achievement during first, second, third, fourth, or fifth grade."

So this isn't about race, it's really about socioeconomic status of the family.

Race and SES are highly correlated

Not always. In NYC, for example, the Asian community there is among the poorest if not the poorest. Yet, they are highly represented in NYC magnet schools.

Inconvenient Truth.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Chinese- and Indian-ancestry kids who are in America predominately come from families who could, for cultural, biological, and genetic reasons, study hard and perform well on tests. In many cases these traits were selected for over millennia. America is fortunate to have these smart and hard-working families and kids. Hopefully their smarts and grit doesn’t get beat out of them by the system.

It’s insane that we can’t say these Asian kids perform better in part because they are just biologically smarter than the average non-Asian American kid. Academic achievement is at least 50% genetic in early childhood, and even more so as kids get older.

It may be cultural but it’s not genetic. Academics are largely about inputs and dose-dependent. Any kid send to AOPS for a year will outperform peers and see big personal increases in scores.

It is not genetic.

30 years ago, I worked for the research department of JHU’s CTY.

We identified gifted and talented kids by, in 7th grade, giving them the SAT (yes, they took the full SAT in 7th grade).

Kids scoring above 930 combined were qualified for our accelerated summer courses. Of the talented kids we identified:

1/3 of the kids were Asian; another 1/3rd self-identified as Jewish. The remaining 1/3rd were a mix of every remaining group.

That tells you the deciding factor is: culture.

By the way, of the non Asian, non Jewish kids, very few were Hispanic, and fewer still were AA. Even back then, we had many extra outreach programs to inner city schools, waived test fees, subsidized transportation on test days, etc. to try to compensate and identify academically talented AA and Hispanic kids.

The problem was education was not prioritized the same way across every household, the difference being cultural.

It isn’t always that education isn’t prioritized, it is many Hispanic and AA are unaware or there is a pernicious under expectation of the abilities of AA/Latino gifted students. I am the poster who explained how I sent my kid to Kumon and my son enjoyed math picture books but wasn’t put in the highest group because of the K teacher’s preconceived notions of who belonged there. I was able to advocate for my son but many AA and Latino families are not because of financial reasons, because they don’t know what programs are out there because of the lack of word of mouth knowledge, and because schools aren’t investing in the best and brightest AA/Latino kids, especially boys.

My son’s second grade teacher was amazing and praised him all the time for being smart and academically advanced but the third grade teacher made the same assumptions the K teacher did. If I didn’t keep at it advocating my son wouldn’t have had the same opportunity in school. Reaching out in 7th grade is too late.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Studies keep looking earlier and earlier as an attempt to find out which teachers are responsible for the achievement gap, because we are uncomfortable with the truth: some people, some families, some cultures have more successful ways of raising their children.

+1
it's not the teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Chinese- and Indian-ancestry kids who are in America predominately come from families who could, for cultural, biological, and genetic reasons, study hard and perform well on tests. In many cases these traits were selected for over millennia. America is fortunate to have these smart and hard-working families and kids. Hopefully their smarts and grit doesn’t get beat out of them by the system.

It’s insane that we can’t say these Asian kids perform better in part because they are just biologically smarter than the average non-Asian American kid. Academic achievement is at least 50% genetic in early childhood, and even more so as kids get older.

It may be cultural but it’s not genetic. Academics are largely about inputs and dose-dependent. Any kid send to AOPS for a year will outperform peers and see big personal increases in scores.

We'll find out in a few generations. India has below average IQ, while China is above average. If genetics is a primary factor then all these children of Indian immigrants will regress to the mean and will stop being a model minority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

PP here. I stated this poorly. The immigrant was a Hispanic immigrant, but I've seen this attitude with both AA and Hispanics. They believe that school should teach them everything they need to know. My point was that Asians don't believe this and actively teach and read to their kids outside of school.

Perhaps you are stating it poorly again. Was the person aghast at the idea of teaching extra because it's too much, or because they felt the school WOULD teach everything they needed to know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Where it becomes problematic is when the obsession turns not to educational quality, but educational PRESTIGE, and especially for those families who already have significant means.

I wouldn't have an issue with the obsession with TJ and the Ivies in our community if it were borne of the idea that those are genuinely the best schools that provide the best education. But they're not, and everyone knows they're not. They're just ranked highly because they're extremely selective.

I think this applies more to public school districts, where parents move their because they see highly rated schools, bringing in parents who care more about education and kids who are better performing, making the schools better. However, TJ actually has higher level classes than the other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
It is not genetic.

30 years ago, I worked for the research department of JHU’s CTY.

We identified gifted and talented kids by, in 7th grade, giving them the SAT (yes, they took the full SAT in 7th grade).

Kids scoring above 930 combined were qualified for our accelerated summer courses. Of the talented kids we identified:

1/3 of the kids were Asian; another 1/3rd self-identified as Jewish. The remaining 1/3rd were a mix of every remaining group.

That tells you the deciding factor is: culture.

That doesn't tell me what the deciding factor is.
Perhaps you left out some data from the research, but what I see here doesn't disprove the idea that Asians and Jews are more intelligent genetically.

It looks like you are assuming the difference is culture to conclude culture is the deciding factor.

[Anonymous]

Poverty doesn’t mean uneducated with immigrants, btw. It would be interesting to see the stats of kids with Asian American parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Chinese- and Indian-ancestry kids who are in America predominately come from families who could, for cultural, biological, and genetic reasons, study hard and perform well on tests. In many cases these traits were selected for over millennia. America is fortunate to have these smart and hard-working families and kids. Hopefully their smarts and grit doesn’t get beat out of them by the system.

It’s insane that we can’t say these Asian kids perform better in part because they are just biologically smarter than the average non-Asian American kid. Academic achievement is at least 50% genetic in early childhood, and even more so as kids get older.

It may be cultural but it’s not genetic. Academics are largely about inputs and dose-dependent. Any kid send to AOPS for a year will outperform peers and see big personal increases in scores.

It is not genetic.

30 years ago, I worked for the research department of JHU’s CTY.

We identified gifted and talented kids by, in 7th grade, giving them the SAT (yes, they took the full SAT in 7th grade).

Kids scoring above 930 combined were qualified for our accelerated summer courses. Of the talented kids we identified:

1/3 of the kids were Asian; another 1/3rd self-identified as Jewish. The remaining 1/3rd were a mix of every remaining group.

That tells you the deciding factor is: culture.

By the way, of the non Asian, non Jewish kids, very few were Hispanic, and fewer still were AA. Even back then, we had many extra outreach programs to inner city schools, waived test fees, subsidized transportation on test days, etc. to try to compensate and identify academically talented AA and Hispanic kids.

The problem was education was not prioritized the same way across every household, the difference being cultural.

It isn’t always that education isn’t prioritized, it is many Hispanic and AA are unaware or there is a pernicious under expectation of the abilities of AA/Latino gifted students. I am the poster who explained how I sent my kid to Kumon and my son enjoyed math picture books but wasn’t put in the highest group because of the K teacher’s preconceived notions of who belonged there. I was able to advocate for my son but many AA and Latino families are not because of financial reasons, because they don’t know what programs are out there because of the lack of word of mouth knowledge, and because schools aren’t investing in the best and brightest AA/Latino kids, especially boys.

My son’s second grade teacher was amazing and praised him all the time for being smart and academically advanced but the third grade teacher made the same assumptions the K teacher did. If I didn’t keep at it advocating my son wouldn’t have had the same opportunity in school. Reaching out in 7th grade is too late.

Your anecdote contradicts your claim that prioritizing education isn't the problem. But even more, your experience with teachers that don't challenge your child is EXACTLY what asian parents experience and why parents must be involved and prioritize education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

PP here. I stated this poorly. The immigrant was a Hispanic immigrant, but I've seen this attitude with both AA and Hispanics. They believe that school should teach them everything they need to know. My point was that Asians don't believe this and actively teach and read to their kids outside of school.

Perhaps you are stating it poorly again. Was the person aghast at the idea of teaching extra because it's too much, or because they felt the school WOULD teach everything they needed to know?

Culturally the person naively expected schools would teach everything a kid should know. The mom didn't know she should be teaching at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Chinese- and Indian-ancestry kids who are in America predominately come from families who could, for cultural, biological, and genetic reasons, study hard and perform well on tests. In many cases these traits were selected for over millennia. America is fortunate to have these smart and hard-working families and kids. Hopefully their smarts and grit doesn’t get beat out of them by the system.

It’s insane that we can’t say these Asian kids perform better in part because they are just biologically smarter than the average non-Asian American kid. Academic achievement is at least 50% genetic in early childhood, and even more so as kids get older.

It may be cultural but it’s not genetic. Academics are largely about inputs and dose-dependent. Any kid send to AOPS for a year will outperform peers and see big personal increases in scores.

It is not genetic.

30 years ago, I worked for the research department of JHU’s CTY.

We identified gifted and talented kids by, in 7th grade, giving them the SAT (yes, they took the full SAT in 7th grade).

Kids scoring above 930 combined were qualified for our accelerated summer courses. Of the talented kids we identified:

1/3 of the kids were Asian; another 1/3rd self-identified as Jewish. The remaining 1/3rd were a mix of every remaining group.

That tells you the deciding factor is: culture.

By the way, of the non Asian, non Jewish kids, very few were Hispanic, and fewer still were AA. Even back then, we had many extra outreach programs to inner city schools, waived test fees, subsidized transportation on test days, etc. to try to compensate and identify academically talented AA and Hispanic kids.

The problem was education was not prioritized the same way across every household, the difference being cultural.

It isn’t always that education isn’t prioritized, it is many Hispanic and AA are unaware or there is a pernicious under expectation of the abilities of AA/Latino gifted students. I am the poster who explained how I sent my kid to Kumon and my son enjoyed math picture books but wasn’t put in the highest group because of the K teacher’s preconceived notions of who belonged there. I was able to advocate for my son but many AA and Latino families are not because of financial reasons, because they don’t know what programs are out there because of the lack of word of mouth knowledge, and because schools aren’t investing in the best and brightest AA/Latino kids, especially boys.

My son’s second grade teacher was amazing and praised him all the time for being smart and academically advanced but the third grade teacher made the same assumptions the K teacher did. If I didn’t keep at it advocating my son wouldn’t have had the same opportunity in school. Reaching out in 7th grade is too late.

Your anecdote contradicts your claim that prioritizing education isn't the problem. But even more, your experience with teachers that don't challenge your child is EXACTLY what asian parents experience and why parents must be involved and prioritize education.

Asian parents don’t experience teachers having LOW expectations for their kids. They are getting the assumption that they should be in the highest academic groups right when they walk in the classroom door!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Chinese- and Indian-ancestry kids who are in America predominately come from families who could, for cultural, biological, and genetic reasons, study hard and perform well on tests. In many cases these traits were selected for over millennia. America is fortunate to have these smart and hard-working families and kids. Hopefully their smarts and grit doesn’t get beat out of them by the system.

It’s insane that we can’t say these Asian kids perform better in part because they are just biologically smarter than the average non-Asian American kid. Academic achievement is at least 50% genetic in early childhood, and even more so as kids get older.

It may be cultural but it’s not genetic. Academics are largely about inputs and dose-dependent. Any kid send to AOPS for a year will outperform peers and see big personal increases in scores.

It is not genetic.

30 years ago, I worked for the research department of JHU’s CTY.

We identified gifted and talented kids by, in 7th grade, giving them the SAT (yes, they took the full SAT in 7th grade).

Kids scoring above 930 combined were qualified for our accelerated summer courses. Of the talented kids we identified:

1/3 of the kids were Asian; another 1/3rd self-identified as Jewish. The remaining 1/3rd were a mix of every remaining group.

That tells you the deciding factor is: culture.

By the way, of the non Asian, non Jewish kids, very few were Hispanic, and fewer still were AA. Even back then, we had many extra outreach programs to inner city schools, waived test fees, subsidized transportation on test days, etc. to try to compensate and identify academically talented AA and Hispanic kids.

The problem was education was not prioritized the same way across every household, the difference being cultural.

It isn’t always that education isn’t prioritized, it is many Hispanic and AA are unaware or there is a pernicious under expectation of the abilities of AA/Latino gifted students. I am the poster who explained how I sent my kid to Kumon and my son enjoyed math picture books but wasn’t put in the highest group because of the K teacher’s preconceived notions of who belonged there. I was able to advocate for my son but many AA and Latino families are not because of financial reasons, because they don’t know what programs are out there because of the lack of word of mouth knowledge, and because schools aren’t investing in the best and brightest AA/Latino kids, especially boys.

My son’s second grade teacher was amazing and praised him all the time for being smart and academically advanced but the third grade teacher made the same assumptions the K teacher did. If I didn’t keep at it advocating my son wouldn’t have had the same opportunity in school. Reaching out in 7th grade is too late.

Your anecdote contradicts your claim that prioritizing education isn't the problem. But even more, your experience with teachers that don't challenge your child is EXACTLY what asian parents experience and why parents must be involved and prioritize education.

Asian parents don’t experience teachers having LOW expectations for their kids. They are getting the assumption that they should be in the highest academic groups right when they walk in the classroom door!

Some kindergarten teachers assume some Asian students are 'slow' if the kids spoke mostly foreign language at home until kindergarten. My kid spoke mostly FL at home until grade-K and had to learn English at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Chinese- and Indian-ancestry kids who are in America predominately come from families who could, for cultural, biological, and genetic reasons, study hard and perform well on tests. In many cases these traits were selected for over millennia. America is fortunate to have these smart and hard-working families and kids. Hopefully their smarts and grit doesn’t get beat out of them by the system.

It’s insane that we can’t say these Asian kids perform better in part because they are just biologically smarter than the average non-Asian American kid. Academic achievement is at least 50% genetic in early childhood, and even more so as kids get older.

It may be cultural but it’s not genetic. Academics are largely about inputs and dose-dependent. Any kid send to AOPS for a year will outperform peers and see big personal increases in scores.

It is not genetic.

30 years ago, I worked for the research department of JHU’s CTY.

We identified gifted and talented kids by, in 7th grade, giving them the SAT (yes, they took the full SAT in 7th grade).

Kids scoring above 930 combined were qualified for our accelerated summer courses. Of the talented kids we identified:

1/3 of the kids were Asian; another 1/3rd self-identified as Jewish. The remaining 1/3rd were a mix of every remaining group.

That tells you the deciding factor is: culture.

By the way, of the non Asian, non Jewish kids, very few were Hispanic, and fewer still were AA. Even back then, we had many extra outreach programs to inner city schools, waived test fees, subsidized transportation on test days, etc. to try to compensate and identify academically talented AA and Hispanic kids.

The problem was education was not prioritized the same way across every household, the difference being cultural.

It isn’t always that education isn’t prioritized, it is many Hispanic and AA are unaware or there is a pernicious under expectation of the abilities of AA/Latino gifted students. I am the poster who explained how I sent my kid to Kumon and my son enjoyed math picture books but wasn’t put in the highest group because of the K teacher’s preconceived notions of who belonged there. I was able to advocate for my son but many AA and Latino families are not because of financial reasons, because they don’t know what programs are out there because of the lack of word of mouth knowledge, and because schools aren’t investing in the best and brightest AA/Latino kids, especially boys.

My son’s second grade teacher was amazing and praised him all the time for being smart and academically advanced but the third grade teacher made the same assumptions the K teacher did. If I didn’t keep at it advocating my son wouldn’t have had the same opportunity in school. Reaching out in 7th grade is too late.

Your anecdote contradicts your claim that prioritizing education isn't the problem. But even more, your experience with teachers that don't challenge your child is EXACTLY what asian parents experience and why parents must be involved and prioritize education.

Asian parents don’t experience teachers having LOW expectations for their kids. They are getting the assumption that they should be in the highest academic groups right when they walk in the classroom door!

Whether a parent is involved to advocate for their child, is the most important factor, ime. Like a poster upthread wrote, we keep working backward to find which grade teacher is at fault, but this study shows it's not the teachers - it's the parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone undertake such a study?

More evidence that the achievement gap starts in the home, not the school system.

This is probably the bigger issue if Asian's (and some others like us) supplement at home and put our kids in more academically geared preschools. Maybe we should start looking at the play based preschools that are not preparing kids for K.

Oh you guys! Always cutting your nose to spite your face, no? Make everything and everyone dumber. It will not prevent Asian-American parents from teaching their kids at home. Asian-Americans are educated parents. They will at least pass on their own skills and knowledge to their children.

Achievement gap is a symptom of a huge problem. The problem is that the home life of an underperforming student is typically not conducive to academic achievement. Achievement gap has nothing to with Asian-Americans. That is not the problem of Asian-Americans. It is a problem that Asians did not create, did not contribute, and can not solve. I don't understand why Asian-Americans are targeted because others are failing? Can you explain to me the logic of that?

Asians are often highly represented in magnet schools and academic competitions. There are people who want representation, and Asians make it harder to achieve it. Hence the hostility. It's in-group/out-group behavior.

Some of it's also cultural. For whatever reason, there's a disdain for nerds and strivers in this country, and many Asians fit that description. Sports is okay. Not academics.

But you're right. It's not really a problem Asians created.

This is a big factor. (Also the general anti-intellectualism in this country.) For example, my child has been taking classes for the past few years at AOPS. At pick-up time, the students who stream out of the building are 95% of East Asian and South Asian heritage. It’s a priority extracurricular for those families.

I challenge you to take a kid who does not have the brain power and interest in Math to sit and do AOPS. My Asian-American STEM magnet kid has been a straight A student who scored a 1600 in SAT. 5 in AP Calc BC in 10th grade etc. He was never able to sit and do Kumon or AOPS etc because it was not his cup of tea. He is capable in Math but he does not like Math more than anything else. For the 95% of Asians doing AOPS, it is something to do with the fact that it is a self-selecting crowd. A whole lot more Asian-Americans do not do AOPS. However, the fact that they are swimmers, tennis player, musicians, golfers, painters, debaters, martial artists ...all of these things are deliberately disregarded.

The problem for most people is mainly that Asian-Americans take each challenge and overcome it. A decade ago, Asian-Americans were good in Math but lagging behind in English. Now they excel in ELA and FL as well.

By having a civil war against Asian-Americans in academics, USA is harming itself. It is not as if other countries will also start NOT educating their children in solidarity with underperformers in USA.

I am the PP you are responding to. I agree that a kid who lacks brain power or interest is going to struggle with AOPS. And there are certainly some kids in my child’s class, according to my child, who don’t really want to be there and don’t do very well. My point is that the families are prioritizing that as an extracurricular, signaling to their children the importance of academic achievement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Chinese- and Indian-ancestry kids who are in America predominately come from families who could, for cultural, biological, and genetic reasons, study hard and perform well on tests. In many cases these traits were selected for over millennia. America is fortunate to have these smart and hard-working families and kids. Hopefully their smarts and grit doesn’t get beat out of them by the system.

It’s insane that we can’t say these Asian kids perform better in part because they are just biologically smarter than the average non-Asian American kid. Academic achievement is at least 50% genetic in early childhood, and even more so as kids get older.

It may be cultural but it’s not genetic. Academics are largely about inputs and dose-dependent. Any kid send to AOPS for a year will outperform peers and see big personal increases in scores.

Studies on adoptive children suggest a very, very large role for genetics.