Do you believe the US is the best country in the world? If not, then which?

[Anonymous]

Americans are actually pretty friendly and welcoming to others. I also like our food, even the junk food, and the free drink refills at restaurants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, there's no doubt the US is the best country in the world. Whether folks want to admit it or not, most would live here in a heartbeat if given a chance.

Agree. Politically I have very little in common with your stereotypical "flag-waver" but I think it's almost willfully blind not to understand the advantages we have as American citizens, appreciate the work America has done to further the cause of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe, and accept that the vast majority of people in the world would choose American citizenship if given the opportunity. This certainly doesn't mean we are perfect. We aren't. And it doesn't mean that our future is inevitable. It isn't, and right now it feels increasingly tenuous in ways that greatly worry me.

But sort of like a Rawls thought experiment, if you were offered the choice before birth to decide between "American" or "random chance of all the other countries in the world," you'd be crazy not to choose America.

You've either swallowed the propaganda or are willfully ignorant of all the oppression America doles out around the globe when it perceives that a democratic process somewhere is likely to support policies it does not approve of.

I can tell you that "America supports of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" is a uniquely American view. That is, this is NOT a view shared by most people around the globe outside of America. It is DEFINITELY not a view, for instance, that has any support in the Arab world. How can it, with so much evidence to the contrary? Latin America? Hello?

Latin America? Go to our southern border and tell me how many are trying to enter our country everyday. People from all over want in-and are willing to die for it. As for the Arab world, I have a hard time believing that Pakistanis, Omanis, or Egyptians would choose to stay in their country if given an easy opportunity to immigrate to America-despite our "oppression."

You misunderstand. America supports freedom and democratic ideals, yes, for the domestic consumption. It does NOT support these things around the globe, it just says it does.

Go to any Latin American country and ask "do you think that America supports freedoms and democratic ideals around the globe? Not 'in America'. Around the globe. Specifically, in your Latin American country, did it support freedoms and democratic ideals? How?"

Go to any Middle Eastern country and ask, "do you think that America supports freedoms and democratic ideals around the globe? Not 'in America'. Around the globe. Specifically, in your Middle Eastern country, did it support freedoms and democratic ideals? How?"

And do report your findings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many don't realize how good we have it in US.

People have absolutely no clue how abysmal salaries are in many parts of the world they hold on high pedestals. Sweden, UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea, France.....yea, you get all of those social benefits. In exchange you get extremely high taxes and very poor salaries. Maybe some of us actually like making double or even triple what our counterparts make in say the UK or Germany and not having the govt control everything? One of my friends from college who is a duel citizen between US and Sweden is now moving back to the US from Sweden because salaries are piss poor while taxes are high. He already got a job offer in the US for 2.5x his salary in Sweden. There is almost no other large country in the world with better salaries and levels of taxation than the US.

Ha, look at all of the innovation the US produces too. All of the leading tech companies in the world are still in the US. EV adoption didn't even get real break throughs into the world until US entrepreneurship/Musk/Tesla broke through the steel curtain to show it could be done. Hell, look at the COVID pandemic - the world was in its knees....and once again it took American ingenuity and funding of the technology to solve the problem for the world with the vaccines.

You are not comparing like with like. Yes, salaries in the US are higher and taxes are lower. But you get nothing for the taxes you pay. You have to pay for your healthcare, your childcare, your higher education, your retirement, the infrastructure is bad. But taxes are low. Big whoop.

I would gladly pay double in taxes in exchange for a stronger safety net.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many don't realize how good we have it in US.

People have absolutely no clue how abysmal salaries are in many parts of the world they hold on high pedestals. Sweden, UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea, France.....yea, you get all of those social benefits. In exchange you get extremely high taxes and very poor salaries. Maybe some of us actually like making double or even triple what our counterparts make in say the UK or Germany and not having the govt control everything? One of my friends from college who is a duel citizen between US and Sweden is now moving back to the US from Sweden because salaries are piss poor while taxes are high. He already got a job offer in the US for 2.5x his salary in Sweden. There is almost no other large country in the world with better salaries and levels of taxation than the US.

Ha, look at all of the innovation the US produces too. All of the leading tech companies in the world are still in the US. EV adoption didn't even get real break throughs into the world until US entrepreneurship/Musk/Tesla broke through the steel curtain to show it could be done. Hell, look at the COVID pandemic - the world was in its knees....and once again it took American ingenuity and funding of the technology to solve the problem for the world with the vaccines.

You are not comparing like with like. Yes, salaries in the US are higher and taxes are lower. But you get nothing for the taxes you pay. You have to pay for your healthcare, your childcare, your higher education, your retirement, the infrastructure is bad. But taxes are low. Big whoop.

I would gladly pay double in taxes in exchange for a stronger safety net.

You do you. Go move. You don't need to tell everyone about it. Just go do it already if you want low salaries and more safety nets from the govt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, there's no doubt the US is the best country in the world. Whether folks want to admit it or not, most would live here in a heartbeat if given a chance.

Agree. Politically I have very little in common with your stereotypical "flag-waver" but I think it's almost willfully blind not to understand the advantages we have as American citizens, appreciate the work America has done to further the cause of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe, and accept that the vast majority of people in the world would choose American citizenship if given the opportunity. This certainly doesn't mean we are perfect. We aren't. And it doesn't mean that our future is inevitable. It isn't, and right now it feels increasingly tenuous in ways that greatly worry me.

But sort of like a Rawls thought experiment, if you were offered the choice before birth to decide between "American" or "random chance of all the other countries in the world," you'd be crazy not to choose America.

You've either swallowed the propaganda or are willfully ignorant of all the oppression America doles out around the globe when it perceives that a democratic process somewhere is likely to support policies it does not approve of.

I can tell you that "America supports of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" is a uniquely American view. That is, this is NOT a view shared by most people around the globe outside of America. It is DEFINITELY not a view, for instance, that has any support in the Arab world. How can it, with so much evidence to the contrary? Latin America? Hello?

Oh wow, the theocratic and monarchical and largely repressive Arab world doesn’t agree that American ideals are good? And here I was assuming that I could rely on them to be purely neutral arbiters of the best and most free societies.

As for Latin America, I know whereof I speak when I say that El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Venezuela are not exactly thriving at the moment. Not many people trying to emigrate to those countries.

You either can't read or are being willfully ignorant. I'll spell it out for you again.

People in other countries - other than America - do NOT believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". Only Americans believe that because that's what the propaganda feeds them. Evidence of actual American behavior around the globe does not support it. America's actions in other countries do not support freedom and democratic ideals. America's actions in other countries support only American interests, and if American interests as America perceives them require that a repressive, undemocratic regime needs to stay in place, then America will support that repressive, undemocratic regime to stay in place. Conversely, if American interests as America perceives them require that a democratic regime is removed, then America will not hesitate to try and remove it.

I'll write it again to remove all confusion: Only Americans believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". People in other countries do not believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" because they have a better, closer view on what America actually does around the globe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many don't realize how good we have it in US.

People have absolutely no clue how abysmal salaries are in many parts of the world they hold on high pedestals. Sweden, UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea, France.....yea, you get all of those social benefits. In exchange you get extremely high taxes and very poor salaries. Maybe some of us actually like making double or even triple what our counterparts make in say the UK or Germany and not having the govt control everything? One of my friends from college who is a duel citizen between US and Sweden is now moving back to the US from Sweden because salaries are piss poor while taxes are high. He already got a job offer in the US for 2.5x his salary in Sweden. There is almost no other large country in the world with better salaries and levels of taxation than the US.

Ha, look at all of the innovation the US produces too. All of the leading tech companies in the world are still in the US. EV adoption didn't even get real break throughs into the world until US entrepreneurship/Musk/Tesla broke through the steel curtain to show it could be done. Hell, look at the COVID pandemic - the world was in its knees....and once again it took American ingenuity and funding of the technology to solve the problem for the world with the vaccines.

You are not comparing like with like. Yes, salaries in the US are higher and taxes are lower. But you get nothing for the taxes you pay. You have to pay for your healthcare, your childcare, your higher education, your retirement, the infrastructure is bad. But taxes are low. Big whoop.

I would gladly pay double in taxes in exchange for a stronger safety net.

You do you. Go move. You don't need to tell everyone about it. Just go do it already if you want low salaries and more safety nets from the govt.

What's with the tantrum? This is a calm discussion about what people think. There is no need to stomp your feet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

And yet where is all of the innovation coming out of Europe with so much accessibility to university? Where is all of the wealth in Europe when HHIs and salaries are extremely low. It all depends on how you define mobility. Sure, in Europe it is probably easier to go from poor with nothing to having protections for housing to healthcare, but your upwards movement will always be limited. The ceiling you reach in Europe is low, while in the US it is unlimited. Once again, if you want limited potential in exchange for the govt to have more control over everything and much lower incomes, go move to Europe. Some of us (millions actually), prefer to have more control over our own money and want to earn more income. Please tell me where in Europe my wife can earn almost 100k euros for simply being an administrator? It. does. not. exist. I prefer much higher incomes and control over our personal wealth than giving it all way to the govt and much lower salaries. Also, let's see how much mobility Europe has over the next few years after it completely melts down economically. Why is the entire world flocking to the US right now for economic safety and investment? Look at what the US dollar is doing right now. It's crazy. Europe is free fall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

+1

https://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/

Denmark is #1. Netherlands is #6. USA all the way down at #27.

What’s interesting is that Northern Europe consistently wins on metrics provided by data but USA wins on rags-to-riches anecdotes. I’m not saying the USA is terrible. I think the USA beats Northern Europe on general diversity, entertainment, and certainly geographic diversity and better weather. It’s not all the abject poverty of the rundown neighborhoods of Detroit or impoverished Appalachia or Cancer Alley in Louisiana. But it’s not all McLean Virginia either. For every single rags-to-riches story of an immigrant coming with $10 and starting a business and selling products to defense contractors and living in a northern Virginia McMansion, there’s ten stories of families who never break out of the cycle of poverty, and 100 stories of just normal people who are attempting to climb the ladder but never quite make it there, but give up all their mental and physical health in their pursuit to do so.

It’s not JUST that the American Dream is hard, but that it is impossible for 99% by design. By definition only 1% can be in the 1%.

If that 1% shot is the most important thing to you, then by all means, of course you think America is the best. But does America’s collection of anecdotes translate to overall greater happiness, health, quality of life, and social mobility? The data states otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, there's no doubt the US is the best country in the world. Whether folks want to admit it or not, most would live here in a heartbeat if given a chance.

Agree. Politically I have very little in common with your stereotypical "flag-waver" but I think it's almost willfully blind not to understand the advantages we have as American citizens, appreciate the work America has done to further the cause of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe, and accept that the vast majority of people in the world would choose American citizenship if given the opportunity. This certainly doesn't mean we are perfect. We aren't. And it doesn't mean that our future is inevitable. It isn't, and right now it feels increasingly tenuous in ways that greatly worry me.

But sort of like a Rawls thought experiment, if you were offered the choice before birth to decide between "American" or "random chance of all the other countries in the world," you'd be crazy not to choose America.

You've either swallowed the propaganda or are willfully ignorant of all the oppression America doles out around the globe when it perceives that a democratic process somewhere is likely to support policies it does not approve of.

I can tell you that "America supports of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" is a uniquely American view. That is, this is NOT a view shared by most people around the globe outside of America. It is DEFINITELY not a view, for instance, that has any support in the Arab world. How can it, with so much evidence to the contrary? Latin America? Hello?

Oh wow, the theocratic and monarchical and largely repressive Arab world doesn’t agree that American ideals are good? And here I was assuming that I could rely on them to be purely neutral arbiters of the best and most free societies.

As for Latin America, I know whereof I speak when I say that El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Venezuela are not exactly thriving at the moment. Not many people trying to emigrate to those countries.

You either can't read or are being willfully ignorant. I'll spell it out for you again.

People in other countries - other than America - do NOT believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". Only Americans believe that because that's what the propaganda feeds them. Evidence of actual American behavior around the globe does not support it. America's actions in other countries do not support freedom and democratic ideals. America's actions in other countries support only American interests, and if American interests as America perceives them require that a repressive, undemocratic regime needs to stay in place, then America will support that repressive, undemocratic regime to stay in place. Conversely, if American interests as America perceives them require that a democratic regime is removed, then America will not hesitate to try and remove it.

I'll write it again to remove all confusion: Only Americans believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". People in other countries do not believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" because they have a better, closer view on what America actually does around the globe.

Citizens of other countries—especially the repressive and corrupt governments pervading many parts of the Middle East and Latin America—would by and large have no idea what we actually do and think. It’s incredible that you think that Americans are uniquely susceptible to “propaganda” but that the average citizen of Iran or Venezuela will have a clear eyed picture of us that I’m not even allowed to question.

Honest question: If given the choice between being an “average” citizen of the United States and an “average” citizen of, say, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatemala, or Nicaragua, what percentage would choose the United States? 90%? 95%? Why do you think that is, if those other countries are so enlightened about how awful we are?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

+1

https://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/

Denmark is #1. Netherlands is #6. USA all the way down at #27.

What’s interesting is that Northern Europe consistently wins on metrics provided by data but USA wins on rags-to-riches anecdotes. I’m not saying the USA is terrible. I think the USA beats Northern Europe on general diversity, entertainment, and certainly geographic diversity and better weather. It’s not all the abject poverty of the rundown neighborhoods of Detroit or impoverished Appalachia or Cancer Alley in Louisiana. But it’s not all McLean Virginia either. For every single rags-to-riches story of an immigrant coming with $10 and starting a business and selling products to defense contractors and living in a northern Virginia McMansion, there’s ten stories of families who never break out of the cycle of poverty, and 100 stories of just normal people who are attempting to climb the ladder but never quite make it there, but give up all their mental and physical health in their pursuit to do so.

It’s not JUST that the American Dream is hard, but that it is impossible for 99% by design. By definition only 1% can be in the 1%.

If that 1% shot is the most important thing to you, then by all means, of course you think America is the best. But does America’s collection of anecdotes translate to overall greater happiness, health, quality of life, and social mobility? The data states otherwise.

Yeah, let's see how upwardly mobile Europeans are as their economies continue to crash. Do you people even read the news? Europe is on fire right now and is melting down. The Euro and pound are in free fall. Germany, Italy, Greece...they're crashing. Pretty soon Europeans won't be worried about social mobility, but will be more worried about trying to maintain a cohesive Euro Zone and trying to prevent the EU from completely falling apart. Look at where all the money is flowing in the world. It is flooding into the US right now because everyone is extremely worried about the EuroZone and the rest of the world. Europe will be out of money soon, and all of those social benefits that allow for mobility will go down the toilet.

[Anonymous]

Look at the components of the social mobility index. It is very heavily weighted towards social safety net provisions. I see very few components on the list that would correspond with what most in the US would associate with opportunities to be socially mobile.

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Anonymous wrote:Yes, there's no doubt the US is the best country in the world. Whether folks want to admit it or not, most would live here in a heartbeat if given a chance.

Agree. Politically I have very little in common with your stereotypical "flag-waver" but I think it's almost willfully blind not to understand the advantages we have as American citizens, appreciate the work America has done to further the cause of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe, and accept that the vast majority of people in the world would choose American citizenship if given the opportunity. This certainly doesn't mean we are perfect. We aren't. And it doesn't mean that our future is inevitable. It isn't, and right now it feels increasingly tenuous in ways that greatly worry me.

But sort of like a Rawls thought experiment, if you were offered the choice before birth to decide between "American" or "random chance of all the other countries in the world," you'd be crazy not to choose America.

You've either swallowed the propaganda or are willfully ignorant of all the oppression America doles out around the globe when it perceives that a democratic process somewhere is likely to support policies it does not approve of.

I can tell you that "America supports of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" is a uniquely American view. That is, this is NOT a view shared by most people around the globe outside of America. It is DEFINITELY not a view, for instance, that has any support in the Arab world. How can it, with so much evidence to the contrary? Latin America? Hello?

Oh wow, the theocratic and monarchical and largely repressive Arab world doesn’t agree that American ideals are good? And here I was assuming that I could rely on them to be purely neutral arbiters of the best and most free societies.

As for Latin America, I know whereof I speak when I say that El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Venezuela are not exactly thriving at the moment. Not many people trying to emigrate to those countries.

You either can't read or are being willfully ignorant. I'll spell it out for you again.

People in other countries - other than America - do NOT believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". Only Americans believe that because that's what the propaganda feeds them. Evidence of actual American behavior around the globe does not support it. America's actions in other countries do not support freedom and democratic ideals. America's actions in other countries support only American interests, and if American interests as America perceives them require that a repressive, undemocratic regime needs to stay in place, then America will support that repressive, undemocratic regime to stay in place. Conversely, if American interests as America perceives them require that a democratic regime is removed, then America will not hesitate to try and remove it.

I'll write it again to remove all confusion: Only Americans believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". People in other countries do not believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" because they have a better, closer view on what America actually does around the globe.

Citizens of other countries—especially the repressive and corrupt governments pervading many parts of the Middle East and Latin America—would by and large have no idea what we actually do and think. It’s incredible that you think that Americans are uniquely susceptible to “propaganda” but that the average citizen of Iran or Venezuela will have a clear eyed picture of us that I’m not even allowed to question.

Honest question: If given the choice between being an “average” citizen of the United States and an “average” citizen of, say, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatemala, or Nicaragua, what percentage would choose the United States? 90%? 95%? Why do you think that is, if those other countries are so enlightened about how awful we are?

Your question has nothing to do with the essence of the notion in question. The quality of life America creates for its own subjects is not in question.

Does America support freedoms and democratic ideals around the globe or does it not?

Looking at what America does around the world (and not at what it says it does), can we say with a straight face that it supports freedoms and democratic ideals around the world?

And yes, I think an average Iraqi would have a much better view on what America does in Iraq than you.

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Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

+1

https://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/

Denmark is #1. Netherlands is #6. USA all the way down at #27.

What’s interesting is that Northern Europe consistently wins on metrics provided by data but USA wins on rags-to-riches anecdotes. I’m not saying the USA is terrible. I think the USA beats Northern Europe on general diversity, entertainment, and certainly geographic diversity and better weather. It’s not all the abject poverty of the rundown neighborhoods of Detroit or impoverished Appalachia or Cancer Alley in Louisiana. But it’s not all McLean Virginia either. For every single rags-to-riches story of an immigrant coming with $10 and starting a business and selling products to defense contractors and living in a northern Virginia McMansion, there’s ten stories of families who never break out of the cycle of poverty, and 100 stories of just normal people who are attempting to climb the ladder but never quite make it there, but give up all their mental and physical health in their pursuit to do so.

It’s not JUST that the American Dream is hard, but that it is impossible for 99% by design. By definition only 1% can be in the 1%.

If that 1% shot is the most important thing to you, then by all means, of course you think America is the best. But does America’s collection of anecdotes translate to overall greater happiness, health, quality of life, and social mobility? The data states otherwise.

What a ridiculous comparison. As if it is fair to compare a country with 330+ million people to tiny countries like Denmark and the Netherlands 20-50x smaller populations. It's almost as if scaling out wealth and combating poverty is harder when you have 50x the size. Gee, who knew? Name another country in the world the size of the US that provides anywhere near the same level of median incomes per capita. I'll wait.

[Anonymous]

Incomes mean nothing without correlation to purchasing ability.