Do you believe the US is the best country in the world? If not, then which?

[Anonymous]

U.S. is the best country if you want to make money, strive, and take risks. But if you fail, want to lower your stress levels, or live somewhere with less violent crime, there are many better countries.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

+1

https://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/

Denmark is #1. Netherlands is #6. USA all the way down at #27.

What’s interesting is that Northern Europe consistently wins on metrics provided by data but USA wins on rags-to-riches anecdotes. I’m not saying the USA is terrible. I think the USA beats Northern Europe on general diversity, entertainment, and certainly geographic diversity and better weather. It’s not all the abject poverty of the rundown neighborhoods of Detroit or impoverished Appalachia or Cancer Alley in Louisiana. But it’s not all McLean Virginia either. For every single rags-to-riches story of an immigrant coming with $10 and starting a business and selling products to defense contractors and living in a northern Virginia McMansion, there’s ten stories of families who never break out of the cycle of poverty, and 100 stories of just normal people who are attempting to climb the ladder but never quite make it there, but give up all their mental and physical health in their pursuit to do so.

It’s not JUST that the American Dream is hard, but that it is impossible for 99% by design. By definition only 1% can be in the 1%.

If that 1% shot is the most important thing to you, then by all means, of course you think America is the best. But does America’s collection of anecdotes translate to overall greater happiness, health, quality of life, and social mobility? The data states otherwise.

What a ridiculous comparison. As if it is fair to compare a country with 330+ million people to tiny countries like Denmark and the Netherlands 20-50x smaller populations. It's almost as if scaling out wealth and combating poverty is harder when you have 50x the size. Gee, who knew? Name another country in the world the size of the US that provides anywhere near the same level of median incomes per capita. I'll wait.

DP.. do you understand OP's question? It's not "do you believe the US is the best country in the world compared to the same size country".. it's a general question compared to *all* countries in the world.

In general, there are other countries where their people are healthier, safer and happier than the general population in the US.

Compared to all the developed countries in the world, only the US has a high rate of illiteracy, bankruptcy from medical bills, more gun deaths per capita.

That doesn't mean the US is complete trash. Of course not. You can have a good life in the US *if* you have enough money, and live in an affluent area with low crime.

But a lot of people in the US don't have enough money to cover everything.. from healthcare costs, housing, to education. That's why we have so many people with college debt, high number of medical bankruptcies. Heck, you are not even immune to school shootings even if you live in a nice suburban area.

We have friends in the UK. They *never ever* worry about school shootings. Here, it's always in the back of my mind. Today, my kids' school is going through a lockdown/shelter in place drill. I feel so sad for them that this is their reality compared to my friends' kids who never have to worry about sh1t like that.

I'm.glad you have friends in the UK who don't worry about shootings. Meanwhile, they're probably worried about jobs and being able to afford to live with double digit inflation and the British pound crashing. Holy Toledo, have you seen what's happened to the pound today?

Why is everyone fleeing the European continent for investment? The outlook over there is very bleak.

nope, they don't fret over jobs. They know they can still go see a doctor and get medical care if they lose their job. They also have council housing, if they need it, but none of them need it. They also have better mass transit options than we do, and many take the train/bus to work.

Ups/downs hit all countries. Have you seen our inflation rates? We also had huge spikes in gas prices. When we were in the UK over the summer, the cost of gas (petrol) there was not that much higher than in the US.

Is *everyone* fleeing the European continent for investment? I hadn't heard that. So, everyone in Europe is unemployed?

Yes, pretty much anyone of importance is. Yes, pretty soon everyone in Europe will be unemployed. Everyone is fleeing to the US for safety and stability. Europe is currently in a world of economic trouble. Kiss all of those social mobility programs good bye.

Wow, when will that happen, Mr. Fairfax Underground?

The UK is in trouble if you haven't noticed today:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/23/pound-falls-below-dollar-1-point-10-first-time-1985-mini-budget-borrowing-tax-cuts

https://www.exchangerates.org.uk/news/36585/2022-09-23-sterling-crash-tory-fiscal-bazooka-tanks-pound-to-dollar-rate-to-1-11.html


The finance world is losing all confidence in the UK. Investment is fleeing. Look at the bond yields in Europe and the UK. Complete disaster.

Here's what you said:
"pretty soon everyone in Europe will be unemployed"

Everyone? When?

2023 likely. Europe is in very deep doo doo:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/global-markets-fall-sharply-on-worries-about-interest-rates-weakening-economy/ar-AA12aOvj

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/euro-zone-short-dated-bond-yields-hit-fresh-multi-year-highs

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/from-the-fed-to-europes-currency-crisis-heres-whats-behind-this-selloff-in-financial-markets/ar-AA12aFZr

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-economic-downturn-deepens-sept-outlook-grim-flash-pmi-2022-09-23/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/old-woes-new-business-turmoil-awaits-italys-election-winner-2022-09-22/


The Eurozone is in so, soooo much trouble with an impending energy crisis across the continent, huge inflation, slowing economies, and yields soaring. Investment is fleeing the continent en masse for the US.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

+1

https://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/

Denmark is #1. Netherlands is #6. USA all the way down at #27.

What’s interesting is that Northern Europe consistently wins on metrics provided by data but USA wins on rags-to-riches anecdotes. I’m not saying the USA is terrible. I think the USA beats Northern Europe on general diversity, entertainment, and certainly geographic diversity and better weather. It’s not all the abject poverty of the rundown neighborhoods of Detroit or impoverished Appalachia or Cancer Alley in Louisiana. But it’s not all McLean Virginia either. For every single rags-to-riches story of an immigrant coming with $10 and starting a business and selling products to defense contractors and living in a northern Virginia McMansion, there’s ten stories of families who never break out of the cycle of poverty, and 100 stories of just normal people who are attempting to climb the ladder but never quite make it there, but give up all their mental and physical health in their pursuit to do so.

It’s not JUST that the American Dream is hard, but that it is impossible for 99% by design. By definition only 1% can be in the 1%.

If that 1% shot is the most important thing to you, then by all means, of course you think America is the best. But does America’s collection of anecdotes translate to overall greater happiness, health, quality of life, and social mobility? The data states otherwise.

What a ridiculous comparison. As if it is fair to compare a country with 330+ million people to tiny countries like Denmark and the Netherlands 20-50x smaller populations. It's almost as if scaling out wealth and combating poverty is harder when you have 50x the size. Gee, who knew? Name another country in the world the size of the US that provides anywhere near the same level of median incomes per capita. I'll wait.

DP.. do you understand OP's question? It's not "do you believe the US is the best country in the world compared to the same size country".. it's a general question compared to *all* countries in the world.

In general, there are other countries where their people are healthier, safer and happier than the general population in the US.

Compared to all the developed countries in the world, only the US has a high rate of illiteracy, bankruptcy from medical bills, more gun deaths per capita.

That doesn't mean the US is complete trash. Of course not. You can have a good life in the US *if* you have enough money, and live in an affluent area with low crime.

But a lot of people in the US don't have enough money to cover everything.. from healthcare costs, housing, to education. That's why we have so many people with college debt, high number of medical bankruptcies. Heck, you are not even immune to school shootings even if you live in a nice suburban area.

We have friends in the UK. They *never ever* worry about school shootings. Here, it's always in the back of my mind. Today, my kids' school is going through a lockdown/shelter in place drill. I feel so sad for them that this is their reality compared to my friends' kids who never have to worry about sh1t like that.

I'm.glad you have friends in the UK who don't worry about shootings. Meanwhile, they're probably worried about jobs and being able to afford to live with double digit inflation and the British pound crashing. Holy Toledo, have you seen what's happened to the pound today?

Why is everyone fleeing the European continent for investment? The outlook over there is very bleak.

nope, they don't fret over jobs. They know they can still go see a doctor and get medical care if they lose their job. They also have council housing, if they need it, but none of them need it. They also have better mass transit options than we do, and many take the train/bus to work.

Ups/downs hit all countries. Have you seen our inflation rates? We also had huge spikes in gas prices. When we were in the UK over the summer, the cost of gas (petrol) there was not that much higher than in the US.

Is *everyone* fleeing the European continent for investment? I hadn't heard that. So, everyone in Europe is unemployed?

If you are on medicare and qualify for the full extent of it, you get better care in the USA than you would in the countries with socialized medicine. They aren't as focused on servicing those at the end of life or with chronic ailments unless they have $$$. UK has private medical care as well, some people need to supplement, so it's not really free. If you are dirt poor old person in a big city you probably get the best medical services and availability and procedures and medicine without paying anything at all. If you are below 65 and/or have some assets you will be bled dry if you have major medical issues and cannot afford high premium and deductible insurance plans.

True, in the USA insurance is sort of tied to your job, but you can buy your own private plans or corporate plans if you are self employed. I used to buy private high deductible insurance. Paid out of pocket (at discounted price at least) for most of my routine medical care and only got coverage for major things like childbirth, surgery, etc. Even then I had to fight for some rates if hospitals switch their affiliations, etc. It does take a lot to be educated in how to efficiently use medical system here, be aware of billing practices, in-network, out of network affiliations and changes that can happen in the middle of you receiving care, be vigilant asking for prices or coverage confirmation before receiving treatments, etc. You can't just walk in and get care and not worry about receiving a bill you might be fighting for hours on end calling customer service even if it's nothing major. God forbid you are seriously hurt and end up in the hospital, you have to stress out about how your coverage will work while you are struggling to stay alive.

Just fyi that before Obama care there was NO PRIVATE PLAN available that covered labor and delivery.

IDK, I had my first kid right when Obama came to the office, but my insurance plan predated his presidency by a few years and I didn't make any changes. I think I could get labor/delivery covered, I definitely had all sorts of OBGYN stuff covered.. I had to fight a huge hospital bill, but it was because some parts of the hospital went out of network during the time I was getting my prenatal care there, and some things were not covered fully. I did get this sorted out and got a refund.

Before Obamacare there were no individual health plans in Virginia that covered labor and delivery. You could only get them through your employer.

Also, before ACA, insurance companies could decline to cover you for private insurance due to pre-existing conditions. I know because I got declined. I'm self employed, and thank god for Obamacare for allowing me to be self employed.

Also, to the ^PP, yes, in a hospital, not all of the provider groups in the hospital are covered by your insurance. So, if you end up at the hospital where you need, say an anesthesiologist, and that group in the hospital doesn't take care your insurance, yep, you have to pay OOP.

RE: medicare - that only kicks in at 65. And a lot of people who may have high medical bill make too much to qualify for medicaid, not to mention that several states (all red) declined to expand medicaid. But, try paying for private care. It's expensive. I can only afford it because I make enough, and (knock on wood) I haven't had any serious illnesses. In the US, the line between poverty and MC/UMC is defined by your health.

Healthcare in this country is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

+1

https://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/

Denmark is #1. Netherlands is #6. USA all the way down at #27.

What’s interesting is that Northern Europe consistently wins on metrics provided by data but USA wins on rags-to-riches anecdotes. I’m not saying the USA is terrible. I think the USA beats Northern Europe on general diversity, entertainment, and certainly geographic diversity and better weather. It’s not all the abject poverty of the rundown neighborhoods of Detroit or impoverished Appalachia or Cancer Alley in Louisiana. But it’s not all McLean Virginia either. For every single rags-to-riches story of an immigrant coming with $10 and starting a business and selling products to defense contractors and living in a northern Virginia McMansion, there’s ten stories of families who never break out of the cycle of poverty, and 100 stories of just normal people who are attempting to climb the ladder but never quite make it there, but give up all their mental and physical health in their pursuit to do so.

It’s not JUST that the American Dream is hard, but that it is impossible for 99% by design. By definition only 1% can be in the 1%.

If that 1% shot is the most important thing to you, then by all means, of course you think America is the best. But does America’s collection of anecdotes translate to overall greater happiness, health, quality of life, and social mobility? The data states otherwise.

What a ridiculous comparison. As if it is fair to compare a country with 330+ million people to tiny countries like Denmark and the Netherlands 20-50x smaller populations. It's almost as if scaling out wealth and combating poverty is harder when you have 50x the size. Gee, who knew? Name another country in the world the size of the US that provides anywhere near the same level of median incomes per capita. I'll wait.

DP.. do you understand OP's question? It's not "do you believe the US is the best country in the world compared to the same size country".. it's a general question compared to *all* countries in the world.

In general, there are other countries where their people are healthier, safer and happier than the general population in the US.

Compared to all the developed countries in the world, only the US has a high rate of illiteracy, bankruptcy from medical bills, more gun deaths per capita.

That doesn't mean the US is complete trash. Of course not. You can have a good life in the US *if* you have enough money, and live in an affluent area with low crime.

But a lot of people in the US don't have enough money to cover everything.. from healthcare costs, housing, to education. That's why we have so many people with college debt, high number of medical bankruptcies. Heck, you are not even immune to school shootings even if you live in a nice suburban area.

We have friends in the UK. They *never ever* worry about school shootings. Here, it's always in the back of my mind. Today, my kids' school is going through a lockdown/shelter in place drill. I feel so sad for them that this is their reality compared to my friends' kids who never have to worry about sh1t like that.

I'm.glad you have friends in the UK who don't worry about shootings. Meanwhile, they're probably worried about jobs and being able to afford to live with double digit inflation and the British pound crashing. Holy Toledo, have you seen what's happened to the pound today?

Why is everyone fleeing the European continent for investment? The outlook over there is very bleak.

nope, they don't fret over jobs. They know they can still go see a doctor and get medical care if they lose their job. They also have council housing, if they need it, but none of them need it. They also have better mass transit options than we do, and many take the train/bus to work.

Ups/downs hit all countries. Have you seen our inflation rates? We also had huge spikes in gas prices. When we were in the UK over the summer, the cost of gas (petrol) there was not that much higher than in the US.

Is *everyone* fleeing the European continent for investment? I hadn't heard that. So, everyone in Europe is unemployed?

If you are on medicare and qualify for the full extent of it, you get better care in the USA than you would in the countries with socialized medicine. They aren't as focused on servicing those at the end of life or with chronic ailments unless they have $$$. UK has private medical care as well, some people need to supplement, so it's not really free. If you are dirt poor old person in a big city you probably get the best medical services and availability and procedures and medicine without paying anything at all. If you are below 65 and/or have some assets you will be bled dry if you have major medical issues and cannot afford high premium and deductible insurance plans.

True, in the USA insurance is sort of tied to your job, but you can buy your own private plans or corporate plans if you are self employed. I used to buy private high deductible insurance. Paid out of pocket (at discounted price at least) for most of my routine medical care and only got coverage for major things like childbirth, surgery, etc. Even then I had to fight for some rates if hospitals switch their affiliations, etc. It does take a lot to be educated in how to efficiently use medical system here, be aware of billing practices, in-network, out of network affiliations and changes that can happen in the middle of you receiving care, be vigilant asking for prices or coverage confirmation before receiving treatments, etc. You can't just walk in and get care and not worry about receiving a bill you might be fighting for hours on end calling customer service even if it's nothing major. God forbid you are seriously hurt and end up in the hospital, you have to stress out about how your coverage will work while you are struggling to stay alive.

Just fyi that before Obama care there was NO PRIVATE PLAN available that covered labor and delivery.

IDK, I had my first kid right when Obama came to the office, but my insurance plan predated his presidency by a few years and I didn't make any changes. I think I could get labor/delivery covered, I definitely had all sorts of OBGYN stuff covered.. I had to fight a huge hospital bill, but it was because some parts of the hospital went out of network during the time I was getting my prenatal care there, and some things were not covered fully. I did get this sorted out and got a refund.

Before Obamacare there were no individual health plans in Virginia that covered labor and delivery. You could only get them through your employer.

Also, before ACA, insurance companies could decline to cover you for private insurance due to pre-existing conditions. I know because I got declined. I'm self employed, and thank god for Obamacare for allowing me to be self employed.

Also, to the ^PP, yes, in a hospital, not all of the provider groups in the hospital are covered by your insurance. So, if you end up at the hospital where you need, say an anesthesiologist, and that group in the hospital doesn't take care your insurance, yep, you have to pay OOP.

RE: medicare - that only kicks in at 65. And a lot of people who may have high medical bill make too much to qualify for medicaid, not to mention that several states (all red) declined to expand medicaid. But, try paying for private care. It's expensive. I can only afford it because I make enough, and (knock on wood) I haven't had any serious illnesses. In the US, the line between poverty and MC/UMC is defined by your health.

Healthcare in this country is ridiculous.

Let's see what our little "pull yourself by the bootstraps" poster thinks about medical bankruptcies. He'll probably say these sick people didn't try hard enough to stay healthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

+1

https://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/

Denmark is #1. Netherlands is #6. USA all the way down at #27.

What’s interesting is that Northern Europe consistently wins on metrics provided by data but USA wins on rags-to-riches anecdotes. I’m not saying the USA is terrible. I think the USA beats Northern Europe on general diversity, entertainment, and certainly geographic diversity and better weather. It’s not all the abject poverty of the rundown neighborhoods of Detroit or impoverished Appalachia or Cancer Alley in Louisiana. But it’s not all McLean Virginia either. For every single rags-to-riches story of an immigrant coming with $10 and starting a business and selling products to defense contractors and living in a northern Virginia McMansion, there’s ten stories of families who never break out of the cycle of poverty, and 100 stories of just normal people who are attempting to climb the ladder but never quite make it there, but give up all their mental and physical health in their pursuit to do so.

It’s not JUST that the American Dream is hard, but that it is impossible for 99% by design. By definition only 1% can be in the 1%.

If that 1% shot is the most important thing to you, then by all means, of course you think America is the best. But does America’s collection of anecdotes translate to overall greater happiness, health, quality of life, and social mobility? The data states otherwise.

What a ridiculous comparison. As if it is fair to compare a country with 330+ million people to tiny countries like Denmark and the Netherlands 20-50x smaller populations. It's almost as if scaling out wealth and combating poverty is harder when you have 50x the size. Gee, who knew? Name another country in the world the size of the US that provides anywhere near the same level of median incomes per capita. I'll wait.

DP.. do you understand OP's question? It's not "do you believe the US is the best country in the world compared to the same size country".. it's a general question compared to *all* countries in the world.

In general, there are other countries where their people are healthier, safer and happier than the general population in the US.

Compared to all the developed countries in the world, only the US has a high rate of illiteracy, bankruptcy from medical bills, more gun deaths per capita.

That doesn't mean the US is complete trash. Of course not. You can have a good life in the US *if* you have enough money, and live in an affluent area with low crime.

But a lot of people in the US don't have enough money to cover everything.. from healthcare costs, housing, to education. That's why we have so many people with college debt, high number of medical bankruptcies. Heck, you are not even immune to school shootings even if you live in a nice suburban area.

We have friends in the UK. They *never ever* worry about school shootings. Here, it's always in the back of my mind. Today, my kids' school is going through a lockdown/shelter in place drill. I feel so sad for them that this is their reality compared to my friends' kids who never have to worry about sh1t like that.

I'm.glad you have friends in the UK who don't worry about shootings. Meanwhile, they're probably worried about jobs and being able to afford to live with double digit inflation and the British pound crashing. Holy Toledo, have you seen what's happened to the pound today?

Why is everyone fleeing the European continent for investment? The outlook over there is very bleak.

nope, they don't fret over jobs. They know they can still go see a doctor and get medical care if they lose their job. They also have council housing, if they need it, but none of them need it. They also have better mass transit options than we do, and many take the train/bus to work.

Ups/downs hit all countries. Have you seen our inflation rates? We also had huge spikes in gas prices. When we were in the UK over the summer, the cost of gas (petrol) there was not that much higher than in the US.

Is *everyone* fleeing the European continent for investment? I hadn't heard that. So, everyone in Europe is unemployed?

If you are on medicare and qualify for the full extent of it, you get better care in the USA than you would in the countries with socialized medicine. They aren't as focused on servicing those at the end of life or with chronic ailments unless they have $$$. UK has private medical care as well, some people need to supplement, so it's not really free. If you are dirt poor old person in a big city you probably get the best medical services and availability and procedures and medicine without paying anything at all. If you are below 65 and/or have some assets you will be bled dry if you have major medical issues and cannot afford high premium and deductible insurance plans.

True, in the USA insurance is sort of tied to your job, but you can buy your own private plans or corporate plans if you are self employed. I used to buy private high deductible insurance. Paid out of pocket (at discounted price at least) for most of my routine medical care and only got coverage for major things like childbirth, surgery, etc. Even then I had to fight for some rates if hospitals switch their affiliations, etc. It does take a lot to be educated in how to efficiently use medical system here, be aware of billing practices, in-network, out of network affiliations and changes that can happen in the middle of you receiving care, be vigilant asking for prices or coverage confirmation before receiving treatments, etc. You can't just walk in and get care and not worry about receiving a bill you might be fighting for hours on end calling customer service even if it's nothing major. God forbid you are seriously hurt and end up in the hospital, you have to stress out about how your coverage will work while you are struggling to stay alive.

Just fyi that before Obama care there was NO PRIVATE PLAN available that covered labor and delivery.

IDK, I had my first kid right when Obama came to the office, but my insurance plan predated his presidency by a few years and I didn't make any changes. I think I could get labor/delivery covered, I definitely had all sorts of OBGYN stuff covered.. I had to fight a huge hospital bill, but it was because some parts of the hospital went out of network during the time I was getting my prenatal care there, and some things were not covered fully. I did get this sorted out and got a refund.

Before Obamacare there were no individual health plans in Virginia that covered labor and delivery. You could only get them through your employer.

Also, before ACA, insurance companies could decline to cover you for private insurance due to pre-existing conditions. I know because I got declined. I'm self employed, and thank god for Obamacare for allowing me to be self employed.

Also, to the ^PP, yes, in a hospital, not all of the provider groups in the hospital are covered by your insurance. So, if you end up at the hospital where you need, say an anesthesiologist, and that group in the hospital doesn't take care your insurance, yep, you have to pay OOP.

RE: medicare - that only kicks in at 65. And a lot of people who may have high medical bill make too much to qualify for medicaid, not to mention that several states (all red) declined to expand medicaid. But, try paying for private care. It's expensive. I can only afford it because I make enough, and (knock on wood) I haven't had any serious illnesses. In the US, the line between poverty and MC/UMC is defined by your health.

Healthcare in this country is ridiculous.

So true.

[Anonymous]

Yes. By far. There is nowhere else in the world with a little bit of hustle that an immigrant can buy/own a 3 bedroom 2 bath brick rancher within 10-15 years of migrating to the US.

Billions of people in the world live in cardboard shacks with no way out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes. By far. There is nowhere else in the world with a little bit of hustle that an immigrant can buy/own a 3 bedroom 2 bath brick rancher within 10-15 years of migrating to the US.

Billions of people in the world live in cardboard shacks with no way out.

I love how you're assuming that immigrants come barefoot and penniless.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Netherlands is probably the best country when you add everything together that I care about: political and social freedom, a functional economy, excellent urban planning, health (not just access to affordable healthcare but an actually healthy population), moderately regulated capitalism, an educated and multilingual population, and at least the younger generation is less racist.

I should also add - it is well known that Netherlands has a problem with very low incomes and high costs for housing/rent. If you don't make enough, you get govt subsidies to afford housing. What do you think the net result is? People just work part time or hardly at all, because there is zero motivation to work full time and be more productive since you'll be taxed more and lose subsidies for housing that results in no improvement in disposable income. When's the last time you've ever heard about any great new technological advances or business leadership come out of the Netherlands? I mean I guess if you are fine with coasting through a mediocre life with low salaries and no chance of social mobility in exchange for the govt providing all basic necessities, ok.

At least 90% of people in the US live "mediocre" lifestyles.

When was the last time the US made top 10 most happiest countries? Netherlands is always in the top 10.

Here are the top 10 countries and their score:

Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200


US #16 - behind Canada and the UK

What good is all the "advancements" when so many Americans are unhappy?

So your measurement for best country to live in is based on some subjective measure like 'happiness', lol. The US is far more innovative than the Netherlands and pretty much all of Europe. Look, if you want a mediocre lifestyle with extremely low incomes, high levels of taxation, high costs of living, no chance of ever climbing the wealth ladder, and having the govt take care of all basic necessities in life for you, that's fine - go move to Europe and the Netherlands. If you want much higher incomes, lower levels of taxation, lower costs of living and less safety nets from the govt in exchange for better opportunities to climb the wealth ladder, the stock with the US. Believe it or not, many of US would rather control our wealth than want the govt to do it. My wife makes $95k after her base salary her plus bonus for just being an administrative staff member. Tell me where in Europe she'd get that kind of salary. It doesn't exist and she'd be lucky to make 30k euros before taxes. I'm sure there are millions of Americans living medicore lives - the point is though that you are least have the opportunity to climb the ladder in the US while it is impossible to climb the ladder in a country like the Netherlands because there is zero innovation going on that builds wealth for the country. My father immigrated here with virtually $0 and a high school education. He started as a bus boy at a local restaurant. He eventually learned English, made it through community college and became a nurse. It was enough to send his children both to university. My brother started his own extremely successful business. I earned my PhD in engineering. My father's kids will likely retire with well over $1M in wealth, and our kids will be even better off than us. We have climbed the wealth ladder because of opportunities in the US and because the US rewards education and drive. I'm sorry there are unhappy Americans out there.m, but there are plenty of us out here in the US who have made it.

Two things. It's sort of telling that you think it was a huge thing to send children to university, when in most of Europe you wouldn't have had to save your entire life to educate your children. They'd be able to enter university and it would not have been a financial burden for the family.

And second, the Global Social Mobility index disagrees with you because it ranks the US as #27, behind most of Europe.

+1

https://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/

Denmark is #1. Netherlands is #6. USA all the way down at #27.

What’s interesting is that Northern Europe consistently wins on metrics provided by data but USA wins on rags-to-riches anecdotes. I’m not saying the USA is terrible. I think the USA beats Northern Europe on general diversity, entertainment, and certainly geographic diversity and better weather. It’s not all the abject poverty of the rundown neighborhoods of Detroit or impoverished Appalachia or Cancer Alley in Louisiana. But it’s not all McLean Virginia either. For every single rags-to-riches story of an immigrant coming with $10 and starting a business and selling products to defense contractors and living in a northern Virginia McMansion, there’s ten stories of families who never break out of the cycle of poverty, and 100 stories of just normal people who are attempting to climb the ladder but never quite make it there, but give up all their mental and physical health in their pursuit to do so.

It’s not JUST that the American Dream is hard, but that it is impossible for 99% by design. By definition only 1% can be in the 1%.

If that 1% shot is the most important thing to you, then by all means, of course you think America is the best. But does America’s collection of anecdotes translate to overall greater happiness, health, quality of life, and social mobility? The data states otherwise.

What a ridiculous comparison. As if it is fair to compare a country with 330+ million people to tiny countries like Denmark and the Netherlands 20-50x smaller populations. It's almost as if scaling out wealth and combating poverty is harder when you have 50x the size. Gee, who knew? Name another country in the world the size of the US that provides anywhere near the same level of median incomes per capita. I'll wait.

DP.. do you understand OP's question? It's not "do you believe the US is the best country in the world compared to the same size country".. it's a general question compared to *all* countries in the world.

In general, there are other countries where their people are healthier, safer and happier than the general population in the US.

Compared to all the developed countries in the world, only the US has a high rate of illiteracy, bankruptcy from medical bills, more gun deaths per capita.

That doesn't mean the US is complete trash. Of course not. You can have a good life in the US *if* you have enough money, and live in an affluent area with low crime.

But a lot of people in the US don't have enough money to cover everything.. from healthcare costs, housing, to education. That's why we have so many people with college debt, high number of medical bankruptcies. Heck, you are not even immune to school shootings even if you live in a nice suburban area.

We have friends in the UK. They *never ever* worry about school shootings. Here, it's always in the back of my mind. Today, my kids' school is going through a lockdown/shelter in place drill. I feel so sad for them that this is their reality compared to my friends' kids who never have to worry about sh1t like that.

I'm.glad you have friends in the UK who don't worry about shootings. Meanwhile, they're probably worried about jobs and being able to afford to live with double digit inflation and the British pound crashing. Holy Toledo, have you seen what's happened to the pound today?

Why is everyone fleeing the European continent for investment? The outlook over there is very bleak.

nope, they don't fret over jobs. They know they can still go see a doctor and get medical care if they lose their job. They also have council housing, if they need it, but none of them need it. They also have better mass transit options than we do, and many take the train/bus to work.

Ups/downs hit all countries. Have you seen our inflation rates? We also had huge spikes in gas prices. When we were in the UK over the summer, the cost of gas (petrol) there was not that much higher than in the US.

Is *everyone* fleeing the European continent for investment? I hadn't heard that. So, everyone in Europe is unemployed?

Yes, pretty much anyone of importance is. Yes, pretty soon everyone in Europe will be unemployed. Everyone is fleeing to the US for safety and stability. Europe is currently in a world of economic trouble. Kiss all of those social mobility programs good bye.

Wow, when will that happen, Mr. Fairfax Underground?

The UK is in trouble if you haven't noticed today:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/23/pound-falls-below-dollar-1-point-10-first-time-1985-mini-budget-borrowing-tax-cuts

https://www.exchangerates.org.uk/news/36585/2022-09-23-sterling-crash-tory-fiscal-bazooka-tanks-pound-to-dollar-rate-to-1-11.html


The finance world is losing all confidence in the UK. Investment is fleeing. Look at the bond yields in Europe and the UK. Complete disaster.

Here's what you said:
"pretty soon everyone in Europe will be unemployed"

Everyone? When?

2023 likely. Europe is in very deep doo doo:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/global-markets-fall-sharply-on-worries-about-interest-rates-weakening-economy/ar-AA12aOvj

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/euro-zone-short-dated-bond-yields-hit-fresh-multi-year-highs

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/from-the-fed-to-europes-currency-crisis-heres-whats-behind-this-selloff-in-financial-markets/ar-AA12aFZr

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-economic-downturn-deepens-sept-outlook-grim-flash-pmi-2022-09-23/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/old-woes-new-business-turmoil-awaits-italys-election-winner-2022-09-22/


The Eurozone is in so, soooo much trouble with an impending energy crisis across the continent, huge inflation, slowing economies, and yields soaring. Investment is fleeing the continent en masse for the US.

Ok. Be sure and come back in 2023 when everyone in Europe is unemployed and tell us how right you were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes. By far. There is nowhere else in the world with a little bit of hustle that an immigrant can buy/own a 3 bedroom 2 bath brick rancher within 10-15 years of migrating to the US.

Billions of people in the world live in cardboard shacks with no way out.

lots of immigrants in Europe, Canada, Australia, also manage to buy a home. This is not unique to the US. Very insular view.

[Anonymous]

Homes here are built from sticks and cardboard. You can definitely own a house in the middle of nowhere with no good schools or employment opportunities. Or normal healthcare and hospitals nearby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes. By far. There is nowhere else in the world with a little bit of hustle that an immigrant can buy/own a 3 bedroom 2 bath brick rancher within 10-15 years of migrating to the US.

Billions of people in the world live in cardboard shacks with no way out.

Yes. I don’t know how to say it other than that the equivalent of “me”—immigrant parents who were poor (at least in their adopted country), had to learn the language, settled down in “the sticks” geographically speaking—could not have “made it” in the way that I have in really almost any other country of which I am aware. Certainly not the biggest countries. I never understand how people don’t get this. Look into what it takes to legally immigrate to most other “desirable” countries, none of which have birthright citizenship, and tell me there isn’t something special about the United States.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Yes, there's no doubt the US is the best country in the world. Whether folks want to admit it or not, most would live here in a heartbeat if given a chance.

Agree. Politically I have very little in common with your stereotypical "flag-waver" but I think it's almost willfully blind not to understand the advantages we have as American citizens, appreciate the work America has done to further the cause of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe, and accept that the vast majority of people in the world would choose American citizenship if given the opportunity. This certainly doesn't mean we are perfect. We aren't. And it doesn't mean that our future is inevitable. It isn't, and right now it feels increasingly tenuous in ways that greatly worry me.

But sort of like a Rawls thought experiment, if you were offered the choice before birth to decide between "American" or "random chance of all the other countries in the world," you'd be crazy not to choose America.

You've either swallowed the propaganda or are willfully ignorant of all the oppression America doles out around the globe when it perceives that a democratic process somewhere is likely to support policies it does not approve of.

I can tell you that "America supports of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" is a uniquely American view. That is, this is NOT a view shared by most people around the globe outside of America. It is DEFINITELY not a view, for instance, that has any support in the Arab world. How can it, with so much evidence to the contrary? Latin America? Hello?

Oh wow, the theocratic and monarchical and largely repressive Arab world doesn’t agree that American ideals are good? And here I was assuming that I could rely on them to be purely neutral arbiters of the best and most free societies.

As for Latin America, I know whereof I speak when I say that El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Venezuela are not exactly thriving at the moment. Not many people trying to emigrate to those countries.

You either can't read or are being willfully ignorant. I'll spell it out for you again.

People in other countries - other than America - do NOT believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". Only Americans believe that because that's what the propaganda feeds them. Evidence of actual American behavior around the globe does not support it. America's actions in other countries do not support freedom and democratic ideals. America's actions in other countries support only American interests, and if American interests as America perceives them require that a repressive, undemocratic regime needs to stay in place, then America will support that repressive, undemocratic regime to stay in place. Conversely, if American interests as America perceives them require that a democratic regime is removed, then America will not hesitate to try and remove it.

I'll write it again to remove all confusion: Only Americans believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". People in other countries do not believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" because they have a better, closer view on what America actually does around the globe.

Citizens of other countries—especially the repressive and corrupt governments pervading many parts of the Middle East and Latin America—would by and large have no idea what we actually do and think. It’s incredible that you think that Americans are uniquely susceptible to “propaganda” but that the average citizen of Iran or Venezuela will have a clear eyed picture of us that I’m not even allowed to question.

Honest question: If given the choice between being an “average” citizen of the United States and an “average” citizen of, say, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatemala, or Nicaragua, what percentage would choose the United States? 90%? 95%? Why do you think that is, if those other countries are so enlightened about how awful we are?

Your question has nothing to do with the essence of the notion in question. The quality of life America creates for its own subjects is not in question.

Does America support freedoms and democratic ideals around the globe or does it not?

Looking at what America does around the world (and not at what it says it does), can we say with a straight face that it supports freedoms and democratic ideals around the world?

And yes, I think an average Iraqi would have a much better view on what America does in Iraq than you.

Yes. I think so. Name a current dictatorship, autocracy, true monarchy, or communist country that is an unequivocal ally of the United States. Name just one. UAE is as close as you can get, and isn’t exactly our closest friend or a country whose governance model we’ve exactly supported.

The question for you is, do you think we could and should be doing more to support democracy and freedom that we aren’t doing?

[Anonymous]

Where's that poster that said UK would be fine. Look at the UK now..it is collapsing. Currency is falling to the weakest ever. To save their money, the BoE may have to massively jack up rates. It will lead to a depression in England. Meanwhile, Italy elected a far right govt.for the first time since like WW2. The euro is tanking.

You scoffed at the notion that Europe was on fire. Look at it now. It's economically imploding. Let's go see how many progressives want to move to Europe now with currencies collapsing and being worth toilet paper at this rate and the rise of the right on the continent. Let's see how many social.bemefits they're able to handout after their money collapses or their economies get pushed to a depression in order to save their currencies from collapse.

Everyone always takes for granted just how stable the US economy and banking system is for the most part. Look at the rest of the world now. They're flooding into the US with their money because they want safe haven from the mess everywhere else in the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. By far. There is nowhere else in the world with a little bit of hustle that an immigrant can buy/own a 3 bedroom 2 bath brick rancher within 10-15 years of migrating to the US.

Billions of people in the world live in cardboard shacks with no way out.

Yes. I don’t know how to say it other than that the equivalent of “me”—immigrant parents who were poor (at least in their adopted country), had to learn the language, settled down in “the sticks” geographically speaking—could not have “made it” in the way that I have in really almost any other country of which I am aware. Certainly not the biggest countries. I never understand how people don’t get this. Look into what it takes to legally immigrate to most other “desirable” countries, none of which have birthright citizenship, and tell me there isn’t something special about the United States.

This sort of anecdotal rubbish pisses me off. My father went to Australia as a refugee, established a successful business, sent 3 daughters to university funded entirely by the government, stopped work early due to health problems, and was well cared for by the public health system (including being flown to a specialist heart hospital in the capital city). Since we are now relying on personal anecdotes to establish the pecking order of which country is the best live in, I invite all Kiwis and Canadians to chime in to share your glowing anecdotes. Let’s rely on hard data, people. You know, infant mortality rates, life expectancy, educational achievement….that sort of thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Yes, there's no doubt the US is the best country in the world. Whether folks want to admit it or not, most would live here in a heartbeat if given a chance.

Agree. Politically I have very little in common with your stereotypical "flag-waver" but I think it's almost willfully blind not to understand the advantages we have as American citizens, appreciate the work America has done to further the cause of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe, and accept that the vast majority of people in the world would choose American citizenship if given the opportunity. This certainly doesn't mean we are perfect. We aren't. And it doesn't mean that our future is inevitable. It isn't, and right now it feels increasingly tenuous in ways that greatly worry me.

But sort of like a Rawls thought experiment, if you were offered the choice before birth to decide between "American" or "random chance of all the other countries in the world," you'd be crazy not to choose America.

You've either swallowed the propaganda or are willfully ignorant of all the oppression America doles out around the globe when it perceives that a democratic process somewhere is likely to support policies it does not approve of.

I can tell you that "America supports of freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" is a uniquely American view. That is, this is NOT a view shared by most people around the globe outside of America. It is DEFINITELY not a view, for instance, that has any support in the Arab world. How can it, with so much evidence to the contrary? Latin America? Hello?

Oh wow, the theocratic and monarchical and largely repressive Arab world doesn’t agree that American ideals are good? And here I was assuming that I could rely on them to be purely neutral arbiters of the best and most free societies.

As for Latin America, I know whereof I speak when I say that El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Venezuela are not exactly thriving at the moment. Not many people trying to emigrate to those countries.

You either can't read or are being willfully ignorant. I'll spell it out for you again.

People in other countries - other than America - do NOT believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". Only Americans believe that because that's what the propaganda feeds them. Evidence of actual American behavior around the globe does not support it. America's actions in other countries do not support freedom and democratic ideals. America's actions in other countries support only American interests, and if American interests as America perceives them require that a repressive, undemocratic regime needs to stay in place, then America will support that repressive, undemocratic regime to stay in place. Conversely, if American interests as America perceives them require that a democratic regime is removed, then America will not hesitate to try and remove it.

I'll write it again to remove all confusion: Only Americans believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe". People in other countries do not believe that "America supports freedom and democratic ideals around the globe" because they have a better, closer view on what America actually does around the globe.

Citizens of other countries—especially the repressive and corrupt governments pervading many parts of the Middle East and Latin America—would by and large have no idea what we actually do and think. It’s incredible that you think that Americans are uniquely susceptible to “propaganda” but that the average citizen of Iran or Venezuela will have a clear eyed picture of us that I’m not even allowed to question.

Honest question: If given the choice between being an “average” citizen of the United States and an “average” citizen of, say, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatemala, or Nicaragua, what percentage would choose the United States? 90%? 95%? Why do you think that is, if those other countries are so enlightened about how awful we are?

Your question has nothing to do with the essence of the notion in question. The quality of life America creates for its own subjects is not in question.

Does America support freedoms and democratic ideals around the globe or does it not?

Looking at what America does around the world (and not at what it says it does), can we say with a straight face that it supports freedoms and democratic ideals around the world?

And yes, I think an average Iraqi would have a much better view on what America does in Iraq than you.

Yes. I think so. Name a current dictatorship, autocracy, true monarchy, or communist country that is an unequivocal ally of the United States. Name just one. UAE is as close as you can get, and isn’t exactly our closest friend or a country whose governance model we’ve exactly supported.

The question for you is, do you think we could and should be doing more to support democracy and freedom that we aren’t doing?

You must be joking. The US is on record for its enthusiastic alliance with every single Gulf monarchy. The relentless kiss-ass to Al-Saud? Is your amnesia really taking hold so early? Multiple takedowns of democratically elected leaders in other countries? Suppression of democratically inspired uprising in Bahrain? Wake up.

I think America should focus on itself and let other countries decide how they want to run their shop.