Looks like a new Gaza war has started

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Hahahahaha

In theory. There's no way that, facing down an another, real-life ground war (especially in the Middle East), the American public is going to support it. Look at what's going on in Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Hahahahaha

Do you hear anyone opposing two carrier battle groups being stationed off the coast of Israel? Who has spoken out over an MEU moving to the Eastern Med? We're deploying 2k troops to Israel, have you heard anyone objecting? If Iran decides to attack or if Syria tries to do something, do you think they're there to observe?

[Anonymous]

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A mother and daughter from the suburbs of Chicago were taken hostage by Hamas during their trip to Israel to celebrate a Jewish holiday season and a birthday party, according to their rabbi.

Judith Raanan and her 17-year-old daughter, Natalie Raanan, traveled to Nahal Oz in Israel, about a mile from the Gaza border, to celebrate a relative's 85th birthday and Simchat Torah.

"It has been confirmed to the family that both Judith and Natalie are alive and are hostages in Gaza," Rabbi Meir Hecht of Evanston, Illinois, told Fox News Digital. "The Israeli government and the State Department confirmed that information with the family."

I am glad they are alive. Is there a historical precedent for taking hostages in this part of the world? From Iran on, the hostage taking of civilians is constant. Or is it just part of the terrorist mindset-what you do when you don't want to fight actual armies? Pick on the defenseless?

Maybe if our foreign policy wasn’t so imbalanced they wouldn’t need to take hostages . People take hostages when they want leverage in a negotiation

Oh please. They take hostages because they are psychopaths.

Nope. Throughout history, people take live hostages as a desperate way to get powers that be to either pay them or listen to them .

It’s not psychopath behavior. It’s actually the most accepted form of warfare because it allows for negotiation and victims are alive throughout .

Keep acting shocked or surprised as to to why Hamas is doing it. It’s because they want leverage. What can one do? Bomb them to smithereens and kill the hostages as well. Nope.

That’s the point . They want to keep hostages alive and release them in exchange for something

Hams doesn't seem desperate. They have more money than God, and patiently stockpiled and planned this. They take hostages because they want to. Abbas isn't holding hostages. It speaks incredibly well of the West Bank to have condemned all of this. They are the light and the future for Palestinians. Not Hamas. I understand why they did it, but understanding their twisted motives doesn't justify them. Pretty much the entire world views this the same.

If they are the light and future of Palestinians, why did Israelis kill more Palestinians in the West Bank before 10/7? You didn’t reward the good guys at all.

Do you think the people there don’t see the victories Hamas has made , and aren’t thinking to themselves “Why are the Israelis afraid to go to the ground in Gaza but certainly aren’t afraid to come here and live among us and kill us”

They’re going to turn to Hamas soon so no more good guys there either.

You’ve worn on their patience

Israelis can't fight man to man, they will be slaughtered. This is why Bibi is itching to drop that tactical Nuclear bomb in Iran.

I mean, the number of IDF women who neutralized Hamas terrorists during the surprise attack undercuts your point.

That's inane IDF propaganda. The test was in northern Lebanon, Israel lost against Hezbollah militias. Israel's army of tech bros and festival goers will be slaughtered in guerilla style close combat.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

They are not "carpet bombing" Gaza. And, they are not committing "war crimes."

Once again, there is a rule in International Rules of War called "proportionality.:

"The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”.

Civilians will die during wars. That is a fact that is true with all wars.
Israel's purpose in waging this war was a direct response to the attack it suffered (in which war crimes were committed) and is an effort to allow their citizens to exist. The goal of Hamas is to wipe Jews off the map. They have the backing of Iran, that has stated the same goal.
So, the military advantage Israel is seeking is to allow their nation to exist.

I'm the PP you're responding to. You and I have a fundamental disagreement on what is happening as reported by mainstream media news sources (Washington Post, NYT, BBC, CNN, etc.), then. It's an undisputed fact that the IDF is bombing northern Gaza, including residential buildings, medical facilities, and schools. It's not "incidental loss", it's literally their declared strategy. The IDF is also bombing locations in southern Gaza, which is where they know civilians who evacuated the north have amassed.

Of course civilians die during war. But Israel is bombing a tiny, enclosed strip, which is populated by two million civilians who have no way out of the area. It is tragic and heartbreaking that 1,500 Israeli citizens were brutally murdered by Hamas terrorists. But indiscriminately bombing Gaza is not a proportional response. Also, in my view, this is not a war in which the basic existence of the Israeli state is at risk, such that under your "proportionality" argument the starvation and bombing of a large civilian population (who cannot leave) is justified. I agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization whose stated goal is eradicating Israel, but realistically they are not going to be able to do that. Hamas committed a brutal terrorist attack on innocent Israelis, which is horrific and unjustified, but it isn't about to collapse the Israeli state. Of course Israel (and any country) has the right to defend itself after an attack, proportionally and within the boundaries of the Geneva Conventions and laws of war. Those laws are quite literally what separate civilized societies from brutal terrorists.

You also did not address my comment that Israel is blocking water, food, power, and all humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza. There are aid convoys waiting at the Egyptian border that cannot get through because the IDF is bombing the border facility at Rafah. Collective punishment of civilians is a war crime - possibly the quintessential war crime (see the Geneva Conventions if you're unclear on that). And it will not help Israel or bring justice to the Israeli victims. It's just more violence and death and brutality.

Shorter version: Israel must cease and desist its operations on or anout Gaza and move on.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Hahahahaha

In theory. There's no way that, facing down an another, real-life ground war (especially in the Middle East), the American public is going to support it. Look at what's going on in Ukraine.

Why do you assume that it would be a real-life ground war?

[Anonymous]

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A mother and daughter from the suburbs of Chicago were taken hostage by Hamas during their trip to Israel to celebrate a Jewish holiday season and a birthday party, according to their rabbi.

Judith Raanan and her 17-year-old daughter, Natalie Raanan, traveled to Nahal Oz in Israel, about a mile from the Gaza border, to celebrate a relative's 85th birthday and Simchat Torah.

"It has been confirmed to the family that both Judith and Natalie are alive and are hostages in Gaza," Rabbi Meir Hecht of Evanston, Illinois, told Fox News Digital. "The Israeli government and the State Department confirmed that information with the family."

I am glad they are alive. Is there a historical precedent for taking hostages in this part of the world? From Iran on, the hostage taking of civilians is constant. Or is it just part of the terrorist mindset-what you do when you don't want to fight actual armies? Pick on the defenseless?

Maybe if our foreign policy wasn’t so imbalanced they wouldn’t need to take hostages . People take hostages when they want leverage in a negotiation

Oh please. They take hostages because they are psychopaths.

Nope. Throughout history, people take live hostages as a desperate way to get powers that be to either pay them or listen to them .

It’s not psychopath behavior. It’s actually the most accepted form of warfare because it allows for negotiation and victims are alive throughout .

Keep acting shocked or surprised as to to why Hamas is doing it. It’s because they want leverage. What can one do? Bomb them to smithereens and kill the hostages as well. Nope.

That’s the point . They want to keep hostages alive and release them in exchange for something

Hams doesn't seem desperate. They have more money than God, and patiently stockpiled and planned this. They take hostages because they want to. Abbas isn't holding hostages. It speaks incredibly well of the West Bank to have condemned all of this. They are the light and the future for Palestinians. Not Hamas. I understand why they did it, but understanding their twisted motives doesn't justify them. Pretty much the entire world views this the same.

If they are the light and future of Palestinians, why did Israelis kill more Palestinians in the West Bank before 10/7? You didn’t reward the good guys at all.

Do you think the people there don’t see the victories Hamas has made , and aren’t thinking to themselves “Why are the Israelis afraid to go to the ground in Gaza but certainly aren’t afraid to come here and live among us and kill us”

They’re going to turn to Hamas soon so no more good guys there either.

You’ve worn on their patience

Israelis can't fight man to man, they will be slaughtered. This is why Bibi is itching to drop that tactical Nuclear bomb in Iran.

I mean, the number of IDF women who neutralized Hamas terrorists during the surprise attack undercuts your point.

That's inane IDF propaganda. The test was in northern Lebanon, Israel lost against Hezbollah militias. Israel's army of tech bros and festival goers will be slaughtered in guerilla style close combat.

wait, you don’t unequivocally condemn Hamas’ attack?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Anyone else having trouble feeling sorry for Americans stuck in Gaza? They assumed the risk when deciding to travel there. Even before the most recent violence, it was still under a level 3 travel advisory.

Let them die! Yes. I think that’s very reasonable. I too am a Cobra Kai ‘84 philosopher.

I hope they don’t die, but they made their own choice. Crying foul to the press just makes them look unintelligent.

And all of the Americans currently held hostage “made their own choice”. That doesn’t mean it is not the obligation of the U.S government to do everything it possibly can to safeguard its citizens. All Citizens. Even the ones you can’t empathize with.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Hahahahaha

Do you hear anyone opposing two carrier battle groups being stationed off the coast of Israel? Who has spoken out over an MEU moving to the Eastern Med? We're deploying 2k troops to Israel, have you heard anyone objecting? If Iran decides to attack or if Syria tries to do something, do you think they're there to observe?

It's called posturing dummy! The US has immense interest in the region, it cannot afford a war in a region where the world's oil supply lies, a war it is most definitely not prepared for. It's the surrounding countries, beginning with the Saudis, that hold all the cards, not Israel.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Hahahahaha

In theory. There's no way that, facing down an another, real-life ground war (especially in the Middle East), the American public is going to support it. Look at what's going on in Ukraine.

Why do you assume that it would be a real-life ground war?

Wars are won on the ground. Ask the US how it did in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. The only way for Israel, a country with a very small population, is either compromise or go Nuclear.

[Anonymous]

Another Palestinian perspective that people here need to understand:

Many people on the left, for example, conflate Hamas with all Palestinians and then deem them all the oppressed — the minority group, the victims, the besieged. Hamas is happy with this misguided and confused perspective because it allows the group to hide under the umbrella of “oppression” to justify its violence. It would rather, of course, be seen as freedom fighters than terrorists.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-oppose-terror-mohammed/index.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Hahahahaha

Do you hear anyone opposing two carrier battle groups being stationed off the coast of Israel? Who has spoken out over an MEU moving to the Eastern Med? We're deploying 2k troops to Israel, have you heard anyone objecting? If Iran decides to attack or if Syria tries to do something, do you think they're there to observe?

It's called posturing dummy! The US has immense interest in the region, it cannot afford a war in a region where the world's oil supply lies, a war it is most definitely not prepared for. It's the surrounding countries, beginning with the Saudis, that hold all the cards, not Israel.

Exactly. Also, polls are one thing but when our own sons/daughters start dying on the ground, Americans will want Biden’s hide as they should. I hope this stays to posturing only, this is not our circus, not our monkeys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Not if Biden wants to win. No chance in hell would I vote for him if there's American boots on the ground in Israel or Gaza.

[Anonymous]

Hate Hamas. Feel for Palestinians
Hate isreali govt. Feel for the Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Not if Biden wants to win. No chance in hell would I vote for him if there's American boots on the ground in Israel or Gaza.

Then you’re an idiot because the GOP wants to go into Gaza even harder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Hahahahaha

In theory. There's no way that, facing down an another, real-life ground war (especially in the Middle East), the American public is going to support it. Look at what's going on in Ukraine.

Why do you assume that it would be a real-life ground war?

Wars are won on the ground. Ask the US how it did in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. The only way for Israel, a country with a very small population, is either compromise or go Nuclear.

Nah. If the objective is to keep Syria out of the war, the US can eliminate their leadership from a distance. One of those carriers could get rid of what is left of the Syrian army relatively quickly. We could recognize one of the militias as the legitimate government and never have a soldier on the ground. You need boots on the ground if you care about rebuilding a country, if the goal is to just prevent them from intervening in a war then you can decapitate the government and leave what is left to deal with the chaos left behind.