Looks like a new Gaza war has started

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

They are not "carpet bombing" Gaza. And, they are not committing "war crimes."

Once again, there is a rule in International Rules of War called "proportionality.:

"The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”.

Civilians will die during wars. That is a fact that is true with all wars.
Israel's purpose in waging this war was a direct response to the attack it suffered (in which war crimes were committed) and is an effort to allow their citizens to exist. The goal of Hamas is to wipe Jews off the map. They have the backing of Iran, that has stated the same goal.
So, the military advantage Israel is seeking is to allow their nation to exist.

I'm the PP you're responding to. You and I have a fundamental disagreement on what is happening as reported by mainstream media news sources (Washington Post, NYT, BBC, CNN, etc.), then. It's an undisputed fact that the IDF is bombing northern Gaza, including residential buildings, medical facilities, and schools. It's not "incidental loss", it's literally their declared strategy. The IDF is also bombing locations in southern Gaza, which is where they know civilians who evacuated the north have amassed.

Of course civilians die during war. But Israel is bombing a tiny, enclosed strip, which is populated by two million civilians who have no way out of the area. It is tragic and heartbreaking that 1,500 Israeli citizens were brutally murdered by Hamas terrorists. But indiscriminately bombing Gaza is not a proportional response. Also, in my view, this is not a war in which the basic existence of the Israeli state is at risk, such that under your "proportionality" argument the starvation and bombing of a large civilian population (who cannot leave) is justified. I agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization whose stated goal is eradicating Israel, but realistically they are not going to be able to do that. Hamas committed a brutal terrorist attack on innocent Israelis, which is horrific and unjustified, but it isn't about to collapse the Israeli state. Of course Israel (and any country) has the right to defend itself after an attack, proportionally and within the boundaries of the Geneva Conventions and laws of war. Those laws are quite literally what separate civilized societies from brutal terrorists.

You also did not address my comment that Israel is blocking water, food, power, and all humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza. There are aid convoys waiting at the Egyptian border that cannot get through because the IDF is bombing the border facility at Rafah. Collective punishment of civilians is a war crime - possibly the quintessential war crime (see the Geneva Conventions if you're unclear on that). And it will not help Israel or bring justice to the Israeli victims. It's just more violence and death and brutality.

[Anonymous]

Does proportionality mean mirroring the Hamas attacks and then stopping? That can’t possibly be true, as that would be war crime.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

To be evenhanded, Hamas will have to cease the war crime of placing its terrorists and equipment in, on, under, or around places like mosques and all that.

And if someone asks the question “what should Hamas do” that’s a reasonable answer, as well as releasing hostages and letting foreigners leave.

But the question was, what should Israel do. And the answer is: not commit war crimes.

[Anonymous]

Can’t people see that the US, by handling the humanitarian side, keeping the water flowing in the south, etc., etc., is helping Israel set the stage for its theoretical ground attack in the nortj? Part of the strategy is to make the tunneled up Hamas draw down its well stocked tunnels. I also noticed the US statement that Hamas must not hijack the aid trucks.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

To be evenhanded, Hamas will have to cease the war crime of placing its terrorists and equipment in, on, under, or around places like mosques and all that.

And if someone asks the question “what should Hamas do” that’s a reasonable answer, as well as releasing hostages and letting foreigners leave.

But the question was, what should Israel do. And the answer is: not commit war crimes.

Well, the matters cannot be addressed in isolation. To fight a war crime free fight, Israel needs its opponent to not engage in war crimes too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Evacuate and set up hospital camps for the wounded and babies.

Designate green zones for IDPs in Gaza.

Let foreign passport holders evacuate and humanitarian aid get in.

Stop the settlers in the West Bank from doing anything to make things worse.

Tell Gazans that they will have a right to return if they flee.

Beg Turkey, Malaysia or Bangladesh to send peacekeepers to Gaza.

Take out Hamas in the same manner that they took out Eichman etc. Quietly, seriously, relentlessly and targeted.

Gotta be able to take out the tunnels and military infrastructure too and thoroughly disarm Hamas.

They're not going to be able to take out the tunnels without brutal door to door combat.

They're never going to be able to thoroughly disarm Hamas. The US spent a decade trying to thoroughly disarm al-Qaeda and then ISIS and couldn't. Best case scenario is to degrade and then counter what makes them popular.

Moreover, the tunnels etc are not as devastating a security flaw as people think. This Hamas attack was only as successful as it was because most of the Gaza focused defense forces were redeployed to the West Bank because of the dumb ass settlers. Obviously they are a problem but the immediacy of dealing with them is not the level it appears. Buy time and figure out something creative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

[Anonymous]

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A mother and daughter from the suburbs of Chicago were taken hostage by Hamas during their trip to Israel to celebrate a Jewish holiday season and a birthday party, according to their rabbi.

Judith Raanan and her 17-year-old daughter, Natalie Raanan, traveled to Nahal Oz in Israel, about a mile from the Gaza border, to celebrate a relative's 85th birthday and Simchat Torah.

"It has been confirmed to the family that both Judith and Natalie are alive and are hostages in Gaza," Rabbi Meir Hecht of Evanston, Illinois, told Fox News Digital. "The Israeli government and the State Department confirmed that information with the family."

I am glad they are alive. Is there a historical precedent for taking hostages in this part of the world? From Iran on, the hostage taking of civilians is constant. Or is it just part of the terrorist mindset-what you do when you don't want to fight actual armies? Pick on the defenseless?

Maybe if our foreign policy wasn’t so imbalanced they wouldn’t need to take hostages . People take hostages when they want leverage in a negotiation

Oh please. They take hostages because they are psychopaths.

Nope. Throughout history, people take live hostages as a desperate way to get powers that be to either pay them or listen to them .

It’s not psychopath behavior. It’s actually the most accepted form of warfare because it allows for negotiation and victims are alive throughout .

Keep acting shocked or surprised as to to why Hamas is doing it. It’s because they want leverage. What can one do? Bomb them to smithereens and kill the hostages as well. Nope.

That’s the point . They want to keep hostages alive and release them in exchange for something

Hams doesn't seem desperate. They have more money than God, and patiently stockpiled and planned this. They take hostages because they want to. Abbas isn't holding hostages. It speaks incredibly well of the West Bank to have condemned all of this. They are the light and the future for Palestinians. Not Hamas. I understand why they did it, but understanding their twisted motives doesn't justify them. Pretty much the entire world views this the same.

If they are the light and future of Palestinians, why did Israelis kill more Palestinians in the West Bank before 10/7? You didn’t reward the good guys at all.

Do you think the people there don’t see the victories Hamas has made , and aren’t thinking to themselves “Why are the Israelis afraid to go to the ground in Gaza but certainly aren’t afraid to come here and live among us and kill us”

They’re going to turn to Hamas soon so no more good guys there either.

You’ve worn on their patience

Israelis can't fight man to man, they will be slaughtered. This is why Bibi is itching to drop that tactical Nuclear bomb in Iran.

I mean, the number of IDF women who neutralized Hamas terrorists during the surprise attack undercuts your point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

To be evenhanded, Hamas will have to cease the war crime of placing its terrorists and equipment in, on, under, or around places like mosques and all that.

And if someone asks the question “what should Hamas do” that’s a reasonable answer, as well as releasing hostages and letting foreigners leave.

But the question was, what should Israel do. And the answer is: not commit war crimes.

Well, the matters cannot be addressed in isolation. To fight a war crime free fight, Israel needs its opponent to not engage in war crimes too.

That’s not true. Israel can— and should, and dare I say must— hold itself to a higher standard than Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pages ago I asked why people who distinguish between Hamas and Palestinians are attacked as siding with evil and anti Israel. No one answered. Is anyone else bothered by the lack of nuance so many people have about this? Most issues are not black and white and this cluster of history, war, terror, and suffering seems even more complex than most. I’m really concerned about how popular it seems to need to pick a side here and ignore the nuance of a complicated history.

I’m bothered by it. It’s such a disingenuous pile-on that is elicited when you ask that question, too. The only silver lining is that the international protests continue, and there’s been some obvious pressure out on Israel to slow things down.

That's an Israeli propaganda technique.

“It doesn't matter if justice is on your side. You have to depict your position as just.” Relentlessly.
― Benjamin Netanyahu

They also find it moral to lie to support their own agenda. Hamas knows Israel and Netanyahu very very well which is they don’t trust a word they say regarding a deal. They know releasing hostages would only weaken their hand and that Israel is not going to stop bombing Gaza once they get the hostages back.

They sadly aren’t going to give up the hostages any time soon. American ground troops are probably going to have to pry them from the abyss .

Very Sad.

[Anonymous]

Powerful....

On Oct. 13, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) announced that they had entered the outskirts of the Gaza Strip. As a Palestinian refugee myself, Israel’s forthcoming liberation of the Gaza Strip is long overdue.

Hamas perpetrated a massacre when they violated Israel on Oct. 7, and in a spree of bloodcurdling violence, they tortured and raped children, women and the elderly, murdering over 1,300 and taking an estimated 150 hostages to Gaza for continuing abuse.

As a Palestinian, I find the actions of the terrorist group beyond abhorrent. During its brutal invasion, Hamas killed, injured and abducted scores of Muslim Israelis, including Bedouins.

Hamas, the regime that just committed shocking genocide and used rape as a weapon of war, seized military control of the Gaza Strip from the weak forces of the Palestinian Authority (PA) and local warlords in 2007. Under their regime, LGBTQ+ Palestinians are executed and public music is prohibited. Even as Hamas misgoverns the Strip as a terrorist haven, it is a much-maligned Israel that, until this week, has provided large portions of the energy, food and medical supplies that keep it functioning.

Israel never wanted control of Gaza, and between Israel’s independence and 1967, it was controlled by Egypt, which never attempted to create a Palestinian state on its territory. Israel gained control of this territory during the 1967 Six-Day War but unilaterally departed under Ariel Sharon in the disengagement of 2005, withdrawing over 5,000 settlers.

The beginning of the experiment in Gazan self-government was not auspicious; as soon as the Israelis departed, Palestinian looters stripped and destroyed the greenhouses and other productive enterprises left behind as a goodwill gesture. For the past 18 years, there has not been a single Israeli settler or soldier in Gaza.

Since that time, Hamas has engaged in a series of escalating provocations in short and sharp conflicts, largely featuring rocket attacks rained down on Israeli cities and, in a heartbreaking national trauma, the kidnapping of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in 2006, who remained a hostage to Hamas forces for five years.

In the days and weeks ahead, innocent Palestinian blood will be on the hands of Hamas as they pay a terrible price for their villainy, as Israel does everything in its power to bring its people home. Don’t fall for the tricks of antisemites perpetrating lies about who is responsible for this war; believe your own eyes and common sense: the raping, torture and murder that Hamas has committed is inexcusable, full stop.

Gaza’s liberation is long overdue; please, Israel, deliver our people from the wicked power of Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

To be evenhanded, Hamas will have to cease the war crime of placing its terrorists and equipment in, on, under, or around places like mosques and all that.

And if someone asks the question “what should Hamas do” that’s a reasonable answer, as well as releasing hostages and letting foreigners leave.

But the question was, what should Israel do. And the answer is: not commit war crimes.

Well, the matters cannot be addressed in isolation. To fight a war crime free fight, Israel needs its opponent to not engage in war crimes too.

That’s not true. Israel can— and should, and dare I say must— hold itself to a higher standard than Hamas.

+1. The moral imperative (and legal obligation) is "don't commit war crimes." That's it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?