algebra 1 count went from 20+ in 2024 before admissions change to 160+ in the 2025 class, and the new class was declared as having more diversity.
"Compared to TJ Class of 2024, the proportion of students in Class of 2025 admitted with the minimal required math background of Algebra 1 in 8th grade increased sevenfold, from 4.5% to 31%"
https://www.fcag.org/documents/TJ_Class_of_2025_analysis.pdf
From Page 3: "Compared to previous years, there is a huge leap in the number of students taking Algebra 1 rather than higher level math. There were 161 students admitted who only had taken Algebra 1 In previous years, that number has been about 20 students ... "
does the increase in lower math students have anything to do with decline in ranking?
No, it doesn't. The decline was based on data from before the selection changes.
algebra 1 count went from 20+ in 2024 before admissions change to 160+ in the 2025 class, and the new class was declared as having more diversity.
"Compared to TJ Class of 2024, the proportion of students in Class of 2025 admitted with the minimal required math background of Algebra 1 in 8th grade increased sevenfold, from 4.5% to 31%"
https://www.fcag.org/documents/TJ_Class_of_2025_analysis.pdf
From Page 3: "Compared to previous years, there is a huge leap in the number of students taking Algebra 1 rather than higher level math. There were 161 students admitted who only had taken Algebra 1 In previous years, that number has been about 20 students ... "
does the increase in lower math students have anything to do with decline in ranking?
No, it doesn't. The decline was based on data from before the selection changes.
It was from 2022.
The class of 2025 freshman SOLs are included and the advance pass for algebra and geometry dropped dramatically relative to 2020-2021.
algebra 1 count went from 20+ in 2024 before admissions change to 160+ in the 2025 class, and the new class was declared as having more diversity.
"Compared to TJ Class of 2024, the proportion of students in Class of 2025 admitted with the minimal required math background of Algebra 1 in 8th grade increased sevenfold, from 4.5% to 31%"
https://www.fcag.org/documents/TJ_Class_of_2025_analysis.pdf
From Page 3: "Compared to previous years, there is a huge leap in the number of students taking Algebra 1 rather than higher level math. There were 161 students admitted who only had taken Algebra 1 In previous years, that number has been about 20 students ... "
does the increase in lower math students have anything to do with decline in ranking?
No, it doesn't. The decline was based on data from before the selection changes.
It was from 2022.
The class of 2025 freshman SOLs are included and the advance pass for algebra and geometry dropped dramatically relative to 2020-2021.
isn't it easier to do geometry at base school than to accept TJ and struggle in such a basic math course?
Anonymous wrote:0.6%, <1%, of the class of 2024 came from a low-income family.
They wanted to eliminate the inequitable admissions process.
And look who benefited the most - Asian students from low-income families.
They wanted to balance race. This is clear from the email and text traffic between the FCPS board members. And in the process...
Asian admissions dropped even as the class size grew larger.
White admissions rose the most.
Between the last year under the old system and the most recent class:
white admissions rose by 54 (more than all other racial groups combined)
black admissions rose by 12
hispanic admissiosns rose by 25
multiracial rose by 7
asian admissions dropped by 40
To be fair the county is mostly white so if are trying to be more representative of the county you are going to get more white kids.
But you are selecting for race not merit.
should it be more representative of the demographic makeup of the county or the applications? If 95% of the applications for varsity ice hockey team are white students, or if 95% of the applications to high school basketball team are black students, or if 95% of the applications to math counts team are asian students, should the selected make-up in each of those teams still be based on county racial composition?
If they did it based on applications, that would lower the current # of Asian students, as they are admitted at a higher rate than average.
are you sure?
from another thread... denied % as well as count appears to be drastically different based on student ethnicity
The admission rates for the various cohorts aren't all that different. The composition is mostly a reflection of who is applying.
It depends on how one views it. The largest number of declined applicants from single cohort is glaringly obvious.
1. These aren’t real numbers. We don’t have the racial breakdown for the class of 2028 applicants.
2. We do have the breakdown for class of 2025 and Asian students were accepted at a HIGHER rate than average. Not to mention significantly higher numbers than all other groups.
The point being made here is why are over 1000+ asian american students being denied, disproportionately higher in number than other cohorts.
The reason for this is that there are nearly a thousand more Asian applicants year-over-year than there are of any other demographic. If you would like fewer Asian American students to be denied admission to TJ, a starting point would be to have fewer of them apply in the first place.
It's funny you don't make that point whe the idiots on your side claim no discrimination exists because most of the kids getting acccepted are asian.
Did you just suddebly realize how fractions worked?
Asian american student grew organically at TJ similar to how the black player strength grew organically at NBA. But suppression and discrimination took place at only TJ, though.
I'm fine with TJ being 60% or any% Asian, but I find claims of Asian discrimination hard to buy given the facts:
1) TJ is predominately Asian. Asians currently make up a larger percentage of TJ than all other groups combined.
2) TJ selection is race-blind. It is illegal to use race for selection.
3) The largest beneficiary of the selection changes were low-income Asians.
I'm fine with TJ being 5% asian as long as the selectiuon is merit based.
(1) Right now it is close to a random selection so the selected students merely reflects the applicant pool and the majority of the applicant pool is asian. More than all other groups combined. The fact that you can't understand this depite frequent reminders means you are either a troll or really stupid.
(2) Noone is saying that the current random process is using race. They are saying that the reason they went from a merit based system to a random system is because they wanted to change the racial profile of the school. Our history is replete with facially neutral rules with racist origins like literacy tests, poll taxes and votwer ID laws.
(3) No the largest beneficiary of the change was kids that could not have gotten into TJ in a merit based system. We know how to select for poverty without sacrificing merit and I would bet my next bonus that a merit based system that selected for poverty would mostly be selecting poor asians. The impact of culture is even more pronounced at lower SES than at higher SES. Asians don't outperform their JV peers in wealthy areas by nearly as much as they outperform their peer in poor areas. The difference is stark.
Apparently not. Students from low-income families were almost nonexistent at TJ before the change.
TJ is a resource for the whole community, not just kids from a handful of wealthy feeders.
So much class resentment!
Affluent people are not entitled to 100% of the seats.
US population has White 59.3%, Hispanic and Latino 18.9%, Black 12.6%, Asian 5.9%. Thankfully they are not trying to pull a TJ admissions like stunt with sports, which is still merit based.
"Professional sports leagues in North America have traditionally been home to athletes from many backgrounds and ethnicities. In the 2023 season, over 70 percent of the players in the National Basketball Association (NBA) were African American. In comparison, 17.5 percent of NBA athletes were white and 2.2 percent were Hispanic. "
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1168461/african-american-sport-leagues/
Anonymous wrote:Admissions probably didn’t help. Worth noting though that there’s been a lot of teacher turnover which I think is a bigger deal than the admissions process since it affects the quality of the education itself.
TJ fell to 14th based on data from 2022 so the new process would have little impact. This decline had more to do with how so many people had gamed admissions before they addressed the test buying fiasco.
Anonymous wrote:Admissions probably didn’t help. Worth noting though that there’s been a lot of teacher turnover which I think is a bigger deal than the admissions process since it affects the quality of the education itself.
TJ fell to 14th based on data from 2022 so the new process would have little impact. This decline had more to do with how so many people had gamed admissions before they addressed the test buying fiasco.
No. The drop in rankings occurred because at least six students failed a reading, math, or science SOL in 2021-22; prior to that, no TJ student had failed those SOLs.
Anonymous wrote:Admissions probably didn’t help. Worth noting though that there’s been a lot of teacher turnover which I think is a bigger deal than the admissions process since it affects the quality of the education itself.
TJ fell to 14th based on data from 2022 so the new process would have little impact. This decline had more to do with how so many people had gamed admissions before they addressed the test buying fiasco.
No. The drop in rankings occurred because at least six students failed a reading, math, or science SOL in 2021-22; prior to that, no TJ student had failed those SOLs.
I guess they couldn't buy the answers for that test.
Anonymous wrote:Admissions probably didn’t help. Worth noting though that there’s been a lot of teacher turnover which I think is a bigger deal than the admissions process since it affects the quality of the education itself.
TJ fell to 14th based on data from 2022 so the new process would have little impact. This decline had more to do with how so many people sohad gamed admissions before they addressed the test buying fiasco.
No. The drop in rankings occurred because at least six students failed a reading, math, or science SOL in 2021-22; prior to that, no TJ student had failed those SOLs.
I guess they couldn't buy the answers for that test.
It is a sad outcome for these students. If they are failing the SOL, they are almost certainly struggling at TJ. The Admissions process needs to include standardized achievement metrics to ensure that students are able to thrive at TJ once they get there. There were no reading/math/science SOL failures prior to the recent admissions change.
Anonymous wrote:Admissions probably didn’t help. Worth noting though that there’s been a lot of teacher turnover which I think is a bigger deal than the admissions process since it affects the quality of the education itself.
TJ fell to 14th based on data from 2022 so the new process would have little impact. This decline had more to do with how so many people sohad gamed admissions before they addressed the test buying fiasco.
No. The drop in rankings occurred because at least six students failed a reading, math, or science SOL in 2021-22; prior to that, no TJ student had failed those SOLs.
I guess they couldn't buy the answers for that test.
It is a sad outcome for these students. If they are failing the SOL, they are almost certainly struggling at TJ. The Admissions process needs to include standardized achievement metrics to ensure that students are able to thrive at TJ once they get there. There were no reading/math/science SOL failures prior to the recent admissions change.
The select the best and brightest these days. I think the problems were with the kids getting in who simply memorized the test.
Anonymous wrote:Admissions probably didn’t help. Worth noting though that there’s been a lot of teacher turnover which I think is a bigger deal than the admissions process since it affects the quality of the education itself.
TJ fell to 14th based on data from 2022 so the new process would have little impact. This decline had more to do with how so many people had gamed admissions before they addressed the test buying fiasco.
The freshman class was significantly less qualified than the classes before it.
The percentage of algebra 1 students that achieved advances pass on the SOLs drops in half with the class of 2025
Anonymous wrote:Admissions probably didn’t help. Worth noting though that there’s been a lot of teacher turnover which I think is a bigger deal than the admissions process since it affects the quality of the education itself.
TJ fell to 14th based on data from 2022 so the new process would have little impact. This decline had more to do with how so many people sohad gamed admissions before they addressed the test buying fiasco.
No. The drop in rankings occurred because at least six students failed a reading, math, or science SOL in 2021-22; prior to that, no TJ student had failed those SOLs.
I guess they couldn't buy the answers for that test.
It is a sad outcome for these students. If they are failing the SOL, they are almost certainly struggling at TJ. The Admissions process needs to include standardized achievement metrics to ensure that students are able to thrive at TJ once they get there. There were no reading/math/science SOL failures prior to the recent admissions change.
The problem is that if they used objective measures of merit, most of the diversity would be at the expense of middle class white students instead of middle class asian students.
Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.
It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.
They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.
Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.
A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.
And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.
The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.
I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.
I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.
The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315
Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.
I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.
I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:
As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.
I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.
The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.
Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.
PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.
The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?
Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.
The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.
Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.
DP
And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?
It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.
The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?
“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.
Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.
The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.
DEI is a good thing.
I never said it was just about test prep.
Here is what I said:
1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.
2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.
It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.
3. QUANT-Q DOESN’T RELEASE MATERIALS
The company that offers Quant-Q intentionally does NOT release materials to the public - it’s very different than SAT, ACT, etc. They want to “measure your natural ability”. And test takers agreed to not share any parts of the test.
Based on the NDAs, any test prep books or companies that obtain and share example quant-q test questions may have been unethically, or even potentially illegally, produced.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ “Test Taker Interface User Agreement
In this agreement, each person who accesses this interface is called a “user,” and whatever a user accesses is called an “instrument.”
Copyright Protected: The user acknowledges that this online interface and everything in it are proprietary business property of the California Academic Press LLC and are protected by international copyrights. Except as permitted by purchased use licenses, the user agrees not to reproduce, distribute, hack, harm, limit, alter, or edit this interface or any part of any instrument or results report, table or analysis stored in, generated by, or delivered through this interface.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement: The user agrees not to copy, disclose, describe, imitate, replicate, or mirror this interface or this instrument(s) in whole or in part for any purpose. The user agrees not to create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive instrument or instruments for a period of up to four years from the date of the user’s most recent access.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s).
By clicking the “Agree” button, the user acknowledges reading, understanding, and agreeing to abide by the statements above and by all the policies and notices posted on Insight Assessment public website(s).”
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.
5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test. https://www.facebook.com/tjvents Thread started July 11, 2020
I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.
https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/ “ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”
6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).
The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):
The data also shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%
8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
This is such a good post. It really should be pinned to the top of this forum.