Just get rid of the magnet program and put you all out of your misery. TJ was never really about education anyway; it was just a way to market the county to defense contractors back in the 1980s. And now you peasants argue nonstop about it like it’s Harvard when many kids end up at VT. LOL.
Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.
It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.
They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.
Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.
A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.
And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.
The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.
I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.
I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.
The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315
Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.
I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.
I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:
As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.
I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.
The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.
Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.
PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.
The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?
Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.
The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.
Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.
DP
And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?
It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.
The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?
“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.
Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.
The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.
DEI is a good thing.
I never said it was just about test prep.
Here is what I said:
1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.
2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.
It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.
3. QUANT-Q DOESN’T RELEASE MATERIALS
The company that offers Quant-Q intentionally does NOT release materials to the public - it’s very different than SAT, ACT, etc. They want to “measure your natural ability”. And test takers agreed to not share any parts of the test.
Based on the NDAs, any test prep books or companies that obtain and share example quant-q test questions may have been unethically, or even potentially illegally, produced.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ “Test Taker Interface User Agreement
In this agreement, each person who accesses this interface is called a “user,” and whatever a user accesses is called an “instrument.”
Copyright Protected: The user acknowledges that this online interface and everything in it are proprietary business property of the California Academic Press LLC and are protected by international copyrights. Except as permitted by purchased use licenses, the user agrees not to reproduce, distribute, hack, harm, limit, alter, or edit this interface or any part of any instrument or results report, table or analysis stored in, generated by, or delivered through this interface.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement: The user agrees not to copy, disclose, describe, imitate, replicate, or mirror this interface or this instrument(s) in whole or in part for any purpose. The user agrees not to create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive instrument or instruments for a period of up to four years from the date of the user’s most recent access.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s).
By clicking the “Agree” button, the user acknowledges reading, understanding, and agreeing to abide by the statements above and by all the policies and notices posted on Insight Assessment public website(s).”
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.
5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test. https://www.facebook.com/tjvents Thread started July 11, 2020
I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.
https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/ “ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”
6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).
The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):
The data also shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%
8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
This is such a good post. It really should be pinned to the top of this forum.
The 2nd paragraph on point 5 is factually incorrect and blatantly so, yet it keeps getting repeated. The TJ today article has nothing whatsoever to do with sharing quant-q questions, since the author took TJ prep well before the quant-q was used. Yet, your side fails to acknowledge this simple fact, and instead keeps lying.
TJ prep companies harvested test answers before quant-q and they harvested them after quant-q. It wasn’t some new behavior during those few years.
The SB has been concerned for years about test prep giving an unfair advantage to affluent kids. That was part of the rational behind selecting quant-q.
Sure. But this article shouldn't be under the following heading. "5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS", as it is not evidence of such and is not even germane to the use of the Quant Q. The author attended prep classes years before the Quant Q was used in admissions. The test banks in her prep company would have been for previous TJ tests, which were not secured tests and likely had tons of prep materials available on Amazon or elsewhere. It is a lie to keep posting that this TJ today article is proof that "TJ students admit sharing Quant-Q questions."
I know that this will be ignored by the person who keeps posting the list of points, because that person is either a troll or is functionally illiterate.
Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.
It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.
They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.
Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.
A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.
And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.
The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.
I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.
I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.
The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315
Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.
I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.
I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:
As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.
I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.
The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.
Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.
PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.
The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?
Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.
The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.
Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.
DP
And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?
It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.
The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?
“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.
Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.
The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.
DEI is a good thing.
I never said it was just about test prep.
Here is what I said:
1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.
2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.
It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.
3. QUANT-Q DOESN’T RELEASE MATERIALS
The company that offers Quant-Q intentionally does NOT release materials to the public - it’s very different than SAT, ACT, etc. They want to “measure your natural ability”. And test takers agreed to not share any parts of the test.
Based on the NDAs, any test prep books or companies that obtain and share example quant-q test questions may have been unethically, or even potentially illegally, produced.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ “Test Taker Interface User Agreement
In this agreement, each person who accesses this interface is called a “user,” and whatever a user accesses is called an “instrument.”
Copyright Protected: The user acknowledges that this online interface and everything in it are proprietary business property of the California Academic Press LLC and are protected by international copyrights. Except as permitted by purchased use licenses, the user agrees not to reproduce, distribute, hack, harm, limit, alter, or edit this interface or any part of any instrument or results report, table or analysis stored in, generated by, or delivered through this interface.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement: The user agrees not to copy, disclose, describe, imitate, replicate, or mirror this interface or this instrument(s) in whole or in part for any purpose. The user agrees not to create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive instrument or instruments for a period of up to four years from the date of the user’s most recent access.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s).
By clicking the “Agree” button, the user acknowledges reading, understanding, and agreeing to abide by the statements above and by all the policies and notices posted on Insight Assessment public website(s).”
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.
5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test. https://www.facebook.com/tjvents Thread started July 11, 2020
I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.
https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/ “ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”
6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).
The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):
The data also shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%
8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
This is such a good post. It really should be pinned to the top of this forum.
The 2nd paragraph on point 5 is factually incorrect and blatantly so, yet it keeps getting repeated. The TJ today article has nothing whatsoever to do with sharing quant-q questions, since the author took TJ prep well before the quant-q was used. Yet, your side fails to acknowledge this simple fact, and instead keeps lying.
This is how liars like Trump get away with their bullshit.
They just keep telling a pretty lie to a sympathetic crowd.
They point to a kernel of truth as evidence that their lies are true.
Everything posted is factual with links to support.
Your link doesn't say what you claim it does. But you're either a troll who knows that and is perfectly happy lying, or you're a functionally illiterate moron.
Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.
It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.
They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.
Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.
A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.
And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.
The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.
I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.
I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.
The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315
Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.
I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.
I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:
As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.
I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.
The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.
Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.
PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.
The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?
Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.
The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.
Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.
DP
And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?
It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.
The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?
“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.
Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.
The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.
DEI is a good thing.
I never said it was just about test prep.
Here is what I said:
1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.
2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.
It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.
3. QUANT-Q DOESN’T RELEASE MATERIALS
The company that offers Quant-Q intentionally does NOT release materials to the public - it’s very different than SAT, ACT, etc. They want to “measure your natural ability”. And test takers agreed to not share any parts of the test.
Based on the NDAs, any test prep books or companies that obtain and share example quant-q test questions may have been unethically, or even potentially illegally, produced.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ “Test Taker Interface User Agreement
In this agreement, each person who accesses this interface is called a “user,” and whatever a user accesses is called an “instrument.”
Copyright Protected: The user acknowledges that this online interface and everything in it are proprietary business property of the California Academic Press LLC and are protected by international copyrights. Except as permitted by purchased use licenses, the user agrees not to reproduce, distribute, hack, harm, limit, alter, or edit this interface or any part of any instrument or results report, table or analysis stored in, generated by, or delivered through this interface.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement: The user agrees not to copy, disclose, describe, imitate, replicate, or mirror this interface or this instrument(s) in whole or in part for any purpose. The user agrees not to create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive instrument or instruments for a period of up to four years from the date of the user’s most recent access.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s).
By clicking the “Agree” button, the user acknowledges reading, understanding, and agreeing to abide by the statements above and by all the policies and notices posted on Insight Assessment public website(s).”
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.
5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test. https://www.facebook.com/tjvents Thread started July 11, 2020
I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.
https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/ “ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”
6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).
The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):
The data also shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%
8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
This is such a good post. It really should be pinned to the top of this forum.
The 2nd paragraph on point 5 is factually incorrect and blatantly so, yet it keeps getting repeated. The TJ today article has nothing whatsoever to do with sharing quant-q questions, since the author took TJ prep well before the quant-q was used. Yet, your side fails to acknowledge this simple fact, and instead keeps lying.
It is factually correct. This has been discussed here by many with firsthand knowledge over and over. The cat is out of the bag...
Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.
It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.
They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.
Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.
A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.
And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.
The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.
I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.
I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.
The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315
Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.
I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.
I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:
As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.
I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.
The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.
Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.
PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.
The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?
Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.
The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.
Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.
DP
And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?
It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.
The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?
“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.
Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.
The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.
DEI is a good thing.
I never said it was just about test prep.
Here is what I said:
1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.
2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.
It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.
3. QUANT-Q DOESN’T RELEASE MATERIALS
The company that offers Quant-Q intentionally does NOT release materials to the public - it’s very different than SAT, ACT, etc. They want to “measure your natural ability”. And test takers agreed to not share any parts of the test.
Based on the NDAs, any test prep books or companies that obtain and share example quant-q test questions may have been unethically, or even potentially illegally, produced.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ “Test Taker Interface User Agreement
In this agreement, each person who accesses this interface is called a “user,” and whatever a user accesses is called an “instrument.”
Copyright Protected: The user acknowledges that this online interface and everything in it are proprietary business property of the California Academic Press LLC and are protected by international copyrights. Except as permitted by purchased use licenses, the user agrees not to reproduce, distribute, hack, harm, limit, alter, or edit this interface or any part of any instrument or results report, table or analysis stored in, generated by, or delivered through this interface.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement: The user agrees not to copy, disclose, describe, imitate, replicate, or mirror this interface or this instrument(s) in whole or in part for any purpose. The user agrees not to create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive instrument or instruments for a period of up to four years from the date of the user’s most recent access.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s).
By clicking the “Agree” button, the user acknowledges reading, understanding, and agreeing to abide by the statements above and by all the policies and notices posted on Insight Assessment public website(s).”
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.
5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test. https://www.facebook.com/tjvents Thread started July 11, 2020
I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.
https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/ “ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”
6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).
The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):
The data also shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%
8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
This is such a good post. It really should be pinned to the top of this forum.
The 2nd paragraph on point 5 is factually incorrect and blatantly so, yet it keeps getting repeated. The TJ today article has nothing whatsoever to do with sharing quant-q questions, since the author took TJ prep well before the quant-q was used. Yet, your side fails to acknowledge this simple fact, and instead keeps lying.
TJ prep companies harvested test answers before quant-q and they harvested them after quant-q. It wasn’t some new behavior during those few years.
The SB has been concerned for years about test prep giving an unfair advantage to affluent kids. That was part of the rational behind selecting quant-q.
Sure. But this article shouldn't be under the following heading. "5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS", as it is not evidence of such and is not even germane to the use of the Quant Q. The author attended prep classes years before the Quant Q was used in admissions. The test banks in her prep company would have been for previous TJ tests, which were not secured tests and likely had tons of prep materials available on Amazon or elsewhere. It is a lie to keep posting that this TJ today article is proof that "TJ students admit sharing Quant-Q questions."
I know that this will be ignored by the person who keeps posting the list of points, because that person is either a troll or is functionally illiterate.
Ok. I’ll change to:
TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q AND OTHER TEST QUESTIONS
But the fact remains that TJ prep companies have been harvesting test answers for many years. It wasn’t some new behavior for Quant-Q.
The SB has been concerned for years about test prep giving an unfair advantage to affluent kids. That was part of the rational behind selecting quant-q.
Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.
It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.
They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.
Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.
A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.
And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.
The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.
I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.
I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.
The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315
Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.
I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.
I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:
As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.
I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.
The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.
Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.
PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.
The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?
Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.
The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.
Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.
DP
And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?
It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.
The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?
“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.
Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.
The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.
DEI is a good thing.
I never said it was just about test prep.
Here is what I said:
1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.
2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.
It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.
3. QUANT-Q DOESN’T RELEASE MATERIALS
The company that offers Quant-Q intentionally does NOT release materials to the public - it’s very different than SAT, ACT, etc. They want to “measure your natural ability”. And test takers agreed to not share any parts of the test.
Based on the NDAs, any test prep books or companies that obtain and share example quant-q test questions may have been unethically, or even potentially illegally, produced.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ “Test Taker Interface User Agreement
In this agreement, each person who accesses this interface is called a “user,” and whatever a user accesses is called an “instrument.”
Copyright Protected: The user acknowledges that this online interface and everything in it are proprietary business property of the California Academic Press LLC and are protected by international copyrights. Except as permitted by purchased use licenses, the user agrees not to reproduce, distribute, hack, harm, limit, alter, or edit this interface or any part of any instrument or results report, table or analysis stored in, generated by, or delivered through this interface.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement: The user agrees not to copy, disclose, describe, imitate, replicate, or mirror this interface or this instrument(s) in whole or in part for any purpose. The user agrees not to create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive instrument or instruments for a period of up to four years from the date of the user’s most recent access.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s).
By clicking the “Agree” button, the user acknowledges reading, understanding, and agreeing to abide by the statements above and by all the policies and notices posted on Insight Assessment public website(s).”
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.
5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test. https://www.facebook.com/tjvents Thread started July 11, 2020
I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.
https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/ “ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”
6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).
The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):
The data also shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%
8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
This is such a good post. It really should be pinned to the top of this forum.
The 2nd paragraph on point 5 is factually incorrect and blatantly so, yet it keeps getting repeated. The TJ today article has nothing whatsoever to do with sharing quant-q questions, since the author took TJ prep well before the quant-q was used. Yet, your side fails to acknowledge this simple fact, and instead keeps lying.
TJ prep companies harvested test answers before quant-q and they harvested them after quant-q. It wasn’t some new behavior during those few years.
The SB has been concerned for years about test prep giving an unfair advantage to affluent kids. That was part of the rational behind selecting quant-q.
Sure. But this article shouldn't be under the following heading. "5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS", as it is not evidence of such and is not even germane to the use of the Quant Q. The author attended prep classes years before the Quant Q was used in admissions. The test banks in her prep company would have been for previous TJ tests, which were not secured tests and likely had tons of prep materials available on Amazon or elsewhere. It is a lie to keep posting that this TJ today article is proof that "TJ students admit sharing Quant-Q questions."
I know that this will be ignored by the person who keeps posting the list of points, because that person is either a troll or is functionally illiterate.
Ok. I’ll change to:
TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q AND OTHER TEST QUESTIONS
But the fact remains that TJ prep companies have been harvesting test answers for many years. It wasn’t some new behavior for Quant-Q.
The SB has been concerned for years about test prep giving an unfair advantage to affluent kids. That was part of the rational behind selecting quant-q.
In other words, you're determined to misrepresent the TJ Today article as proof that Quant Q questions, specifically, were shared at testing centers, even though it shows nothing of the kind? This is an important distinction, because the Quant Q is the only test TJ used that was supposed to be a secure test. It's kind of obvious that any prep center will have a bank of practice questions for an unsecured test, and that it's not that big of an advantage since such materials are available elsewhere. If you want to include this TJ today article as evidence of item #4 in the list, that would be fine. It's flat out lying to include it as any type of proof of Quant Q question sharing.
I know that you're determined to misuse this article, since it's the closest thing you have to actual evidence of Quant Q question sharing. The only other links you or any other posters have provided are social media posts. Unfortunately for you, unless the author of the article had a time machine, this article really has nothing to do with sharing of Quant Q questions.
Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.
It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.
They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.
Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.
A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.
And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.
The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.
I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.
I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.
The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315
Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.
I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.
I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:
As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.
I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.
The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.
Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.
PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.
The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?
Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.
The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.
Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.
DP
And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?
It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.
The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?
“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.
Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.
The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.
DEI is a good thing.
I never said it was just about test prep.
Here is what I said:
1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.
2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.
It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.
3. QUANT-Q DOESN’T RELEASE MATERIALS
The company that offers Quant-Q intentionally does NOT release materials to the public - it’s very different than SAT, ACT, etc. They want to “measure your natural ability”. And test takers agreed to not share any parts of the test.
Based on the NDAs, any test prep books or companies that obtain and share example quant-q test questions may have been unethically, or even potentially illegally, produced.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ “Test Taker Interface User Agreement
In this agreement, each person who accesses this interface is called a “user,” and whatever a user accesses is called an “instrument.”
Copyright Protected: The user acknowledges that this online interface and everything in it are proprietary business property of the California Academic Press LLC and are protected by international copyrights. Except as permitted by purchased use licenses, the user agrees not to reproduce, distribute, hack, harm, limit, alter, or edit this interface or any part of any instrument or results report, table or analysis stored in, generated by, or delivered through this interface.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement: The user agrees not to copy, disclose, describe, imitate, replicate, or mirror this interface or this instrument(s) in whole or in part for any purpose. The user agrees not to create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive instrument or instruments for a period of up to four years from the date of the user’s most recent access.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s).
By clicking the “Agree” button, the user acknowledges reading, understanding, and agreeing to abide by the statements above and by all the policies and notices posted on Insight Assessment public website(s).”
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.
5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test. https://www.facebook.com/tjvents Thread started July 11, 2020
I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.
https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/ “ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”
6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).
The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):
The data also shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%
8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
This is such a good post. It really should be pinned to the top of this forum.
The 2nd paragraph on point 5 is factually incorrect and blatantly so, yet it keeps getting repeated. The TJ today article has nothing whatsoever to do with sharing quant-q questions, since the author took TJ prep well before the quant-q was used. Yet, your side fails to acknowledge this simple fact, and instead keeps lying.
TJ prep companies harvested test answers before quant-q and they harvested them after quant-q. It wasn’t some new behavior during those few years.
The SB has been concerned for years about test prep giving an unfair advantage to affluent kids. That was part of the rational behind selecting quant-q.
Sure. But this article shouldn't be under the following heading. "5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS", as it is not evidence of such and is not even germane to the use of the Quant Q. The author attended prep classes years before the Quant Q was used in admissions. The test banks in her prep company would have been for previous TJ tests, which were not secured tests and likely had tons of prep materials available on Amazon or elsewhere. It is a lie to keep posting that this TJ today article is proof that "TJ students admit sharing Quant-Q questions."
I know that this will be ignored by the person who keeps posting the list of points, because that person is either a troll or is functionally illiterate.
Ok. I’ll change to:
TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q AND OTHER TEST QUESTIONS
But the fact remains that TJ prep companies have been harvesting test answers for many years. It wasn’t some new behavior for Quant-Q.
The SB has been concerned for years about test prep giving an unfair advantage to affluent kids. That was part of the rational behind selecting quant-q.
In other words, you're determined to misrepresent the TJ Today article as proof that Quant Q questions, specifically, were shared at testing centers, even though it shows nothing of the kind? This is an important distinction, because the Quant Q is the only test TJ used that was supposed to be a secure test. It's kind of obvious that any prep center will have a bank of practice questions for an unsecured test, and that it's not that big of an advantage since such materials are available elsewhere. If you want to include this TJ today article as evidence of item #4 in the list, that would be fine. It's flat out lying to include it as any type of proof of Quant Q question sharing.
I know that you're determined to misuse this article, since it's the closest thing you have to actual evidence of Quant Q question sharing. The only other links you or any other posters have provided are social media posts. Unfortunately for you, unless the author of the article had a time machine, this article really has nothing to do with sharing of Quant Q questions.
Yes it's true that prep companies had been harvesting test questions long before the QuantQ to provide their customers an unfair advantage.
Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.
It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.
They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.
Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.
A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.
And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.
The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.
I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.
I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.
The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315
Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.
I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.
I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:
As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.
I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.
The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.
Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.
PP looks at TJ as a charity while simultaneously implying that NOVA base high schools are some place that can’t make a difference. We are not in some extreme poverty stricken inner city school district. Every FCPS HS is sending kids to Top 20s etc… the same poor kid will be fine just like the same rich kid will be fine. These kids were already getting 3.9s and taking Algebra in MS.
The current system is identifying kids that can’t even take some classes at TJ and PP knows any test will reveal these discrepancies. The reputation of TJ is going to continue to slide and then the difference it makes will be what exactly? A kid went somewhere and took one or two unique science class and Calc AB?
Nonsense. TJ today is stronger than a few years ago when people were buying their way in. Today at least they choose the top students from these schools not just those who can afford to buy the test answers.
The ranking, SOLs, recidivism rate, remedial math participation all say different.
Who bought test answers? Test prep is not buying test answers. If Quant Q used the same test or test questions year after year, then FCPS should get its money back.
Paying $$$$ to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for a public school program.
DP
And that advantage can be eliminated by doing what every other standardized test does and not use the exact same questions over again.
Why the f0ck was fcps paying someone to use the same test questions over and over again? Was he somebody's cousin?
It’s more than the specific questions - even similar questions skew the results.
The issue here wasn’t the test; it was the ability of some wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
The DEI been trying to malign objective measures of merit for a long time and for a brief shining moment in 2020 to 20223, they succeeded but then everyone realized that merit matters and now we are all going back to testing. if one of the arguments for getting rid of the TJ test was elimination of the test by top colleges, wouldn't the reintroduction of testing by these colleges indicate that TJ should do the same?
“The DEI”? It isn’t the boogeyman.
Public schools have different stakeholders and different objectives than top colleges.
The issue with the old admissions process for TJ, a public school magnet, was that it gave too much room for wealthy kids to unethically obtain an unfair advantage.
DEI is absolutely the problem here.
They didn't make the chabnges because of some testing advantage. They made the changes to achieve racial policy goals.
You already know this and keep pretending it was about test prep. You are convincing noone, not even yourself.
DEI is a good thing.
I never said it was just about test prep.
Here is what I said:
1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.
2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.
It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.
3. QUANT-Q DOESN’T RELEASE MATERIALS
The company that offers Quant-Q intentionally does NOT release materials to the public - it’s very different than SAT, ACT, etc. They want to “measure your natural ability”. And test takers agreed to not share any parts of the test.
Based on the NDAs, any test prep books or companies that obtain and share example quant-q test questions may have been unethically, or even potentially illegally, produced.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ “Test Taker Interface User Agreement
In this agreement, each person who accesses this interface is called a “user,” and whatever a user accesses is called an “instrument.”
Copyright Protected: The user acknowledges that this online interface and everything in it are proprietary business property of the California Academic Press LLC and are protected by international copyrights. Except as permitted by purchased use licenses, the user agrees not to reproduce, distribute, hack, harm, limit, alter, or edit this interface or any part of any instrument or results report, table or analysis stored in, generated by, or delivered through this interface.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement: The user agrees not to copy, disclose, describe, imitate, replicate, or mirror this interface or this instrument(s) in whole or in part for any purpose. The user agrees not to create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive instrument or instruments for a period of up to four years from the date of the user’s most recent access.
Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s).
By clicking the “Agree” button, the user acknowledges reading, understanding, and agreeing to abide by the statements above and by all the policies and notices posted on Insight Assessment public website(s).”
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.
5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test. https://www.facebook.com/tjvents Thread started July 11, 2020
I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.
https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/ “ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”
6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).
The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):
The data also shows that Asian students were accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students.
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
ALL 18%
8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
This is such a good post. It really should be pinned to the top of this forum.
The 2nd paragraph on point 5 is factually incorrect and blatantly so, yet it keeps getting repeated. The TJ today article has nothing whatsoever to do with sharing quant-q questions, since the author took TJ prep well before the quant-q was used. Yet, your side fails to acknowledge this simple fact, and instead keeps lying.
TJ prep companies harvested test answers before quant-q and they harvested them after quant-q. It wasn’t some new behavior during those few years.
The SB has been concerned for years about test prep giving an unfair advantage to affluent kids. That was part of the rational behind selecting quant-q.
Sure. But this article shouldn't be under the following heading. "5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS", as it is not evidence of such and is not even germane to the use of the Quant Q. The author attended prep classes years before the Quant Q was used in admissions. The test banks in her prep company would have been for previous TJ tests, which were not secured tests and likely had tons of prep materials available on Amazon or elsewhere. It is a lie to keep posting that this TJ today article is proof that "TJ students admit sharing Quant-Q questions."
I know that this will be ignored by the person who keeps posting the list of points, because that person is either a troll or is functionally illiterate.
Ok. I’ll change to:
TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q AND OTHER TEST QUESTIONS
But the fact remains that TJ prep companies have been harvesting test answers for many years. It wasn’t some new behavior for Quant-Q.
The SB has been concerned for years about test prep giving an unfair advantage to affluent kids. That was part of the rational behind selecting quant-q.
In other words, you're determined to misrepresent the TJ Today article as proof that Quant Q questions, specifically, were shared at testing centers, even though it shows nothing of the kind? This is an important distinction, because the Quant Q is the only test TJ used that was supposed to be a secure test. It's kind of obvious that any prep center will have a bank of practice questions for an unsecured test, and that it's not that big of an advantage since such materials are available elsewhere. If you want to include this TJ today article as evidence of item #4 in the list, that would be fine. It's flat out lying to include it as any type of proof of Quant Q question sharing.
I know that you're determined to misuse this article, since it's the closest thing you have to actual evidence of Quant Q question sharing. The only other links you or any other posters have provided are social media posts. Unfortunately for you, unless the author of the article had a time machine, this article really has nothing to do with sharing of Quant Q questions.
The test prep goes way beyond Quant-Q. Not sure why you’re so fixated on just that one test. FCPS/SB have been trying to minimize the unfair advantage of test prep for many years.
1. CHANGES TO TJ ADMISSIONS PROCESS
FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
Before the most recent change, the class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students came from economically-disadvantaged families. There was also very little representation from the less affluent schools.
2. CONCERN ABOUT TJ PREP INDUSTRY
There was also public concern about the TJ test prep industry that led, in part, to changes in the admissions process. By reverse engineering the admissions criteria/process, prep companies offered kids an unfair advantage in admissions. In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
This has all been discussed countless times on DCUM. Feel free to go read old threads for more details.
It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.
Anonymous wrote:
from another thread... denied % as well as count appears to be drastically different based on student ethnicity
The admission rates for the various cohorts aren't all that different. The composition is mostly a reflection of who is applying.
It depends on how one views it. The largest number of declined applicants from single cohort is glaringly obvious.
Hasnt this been the case for decades? what new with the recent year?
Anonymous wrote:Did the philosophy behind the 2021-22 9th grade admissions changes also carry over to 10th and 11th grade admissions?
No, those admissions don't make headlines so those admissions are still merit based.
In 2021-22, there were a number of 10th and 11th graders that failed an SOL. In 2022-23, there were a number of 11th graders that failed an SOL. That's a new phenomenon. That's why I wondered if admissions policies changed in the upper grades beginning in 2021-22 as well.
Anonymous wrote:Did the philosophy behind the 2021-22 9th grade admissions changes also carry over to 10th and 11th grade admissions?
No, those admissions don't make headlines so those admissions are still merit based.
In 2021-22, there were a number of 10th and 11th graders that failed an SOL. In 2022-23, there were a number of 11th graders that failed an SOL. That's a new phenomenon. That's why I wondered if admissions policies changed in the upper grades beginning in 2021-22 as well.
No they didn't. So much for that conspiracy theory.
Anonymous wrote:Did the philosophy behind the 2021-22 9th grade admissions changes also carry over to 10th and 11th grade admissions?
No, those admissions don't make headlines so those admissions are still merit based.
In 2021-22, there were a number of 10th and 11th graders that failed an SOL. In 2022-23, there were a number of 11th graders that failed an SOL. That's a new phenomenon. That's why I wondered if admissions policies changed in the upper grades beginning in 2021-22 as well.
No they didn't. So much for that conspiracy theory.
In 2021-22, six 10th graders failed the science SOL and one 11th grader failed the reading SOL.
In 2022-23, seven 11th graders failed the reading SOL.
Prior to 2021-22, there had never been a TJ student that failed a reading or science SOL. Something changed in the upper grades as of 2021-22.
Anonymous wrote:Did the philosophy behind the 2021-22 9th grade admissions changes also carry over to 10th and 11th grade admissions?
No, those admissions don't make headlines so those admissions are still merit based.
In 2021-22, there were a number of 10th and 11th graders that failed an SOL. In 2022-23, there were a number of 11th graders that failed an SOL. That's a new phenomenon. That's why I wondered if admissions policies changed in the upper grades beginning in 2021-22 as well.
It has more to do with impact of the pandemic on education than these wacky conspiracy theories pushed by the C4TJ crowd.
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