TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Some cultures value education more than others and they achieve better academic results."

is there a list of these cultures and how much they value education?

(source: AI internet search )

Culture - What They Value Most
=====================

Chinese – Education

South Korean – Education

Japanese – Discipline

Indian – Education

Jewish (Global) – Intellectual achievement

American (USA) – Individualism

Brazilian – Sports

German – Efficiency

Nigerian (Igbo) – Education

French – Culture

Arab (Middle East) – Family

Russian – Resilience

Australian – Sports

Swedish – Equality

Finnish – Education

Mexican – Family

Israeli – Innovation

Thai – Hospitality

Italian – Family

Vietnamese – Education

[Anonymous]

| **Culture** | **What They Value Most** | **Notes** |
| --------------------- | ----------------------- | ----------------------------------- |
| **Chinese** | Education | Deep Confucian roots; academic success = family honor. |
| **South Korean** | Education | Extremely competitive academic system; high expectations on students. |
| **Japanese** | Discipline & Education | Strong work ethic, respect, and group harmony also emphasized. |
| **Indian** | Education & Family | Education is tied to social status; family bonds are deeply rooted. |
| **Jewish (Global)** | Education & Intellectual Achievement | Lifelong learning is a core cultural and religious principle. |
| **American (USA)** | Individualism, Innovation, and Sports | High value on personal freedom, entrepreneurship, and athletic success. |
| **Brazilian** | Sports (especially football/soccer) & Family | Passion for sports; family and celebration are key cultural pillars. |
| **German** | Precision, Engineering, and Efficiency | Strong vocational and academic education system; order and structure. |
| **Nigerian (esp. Igbo)** | Education & Business | Education as a path to success; entrepreneurship is highly encouraged. |
| **French** | Culture, Intellectualism, and Culinary Arts | Pride in language, literature, fashion, and food. |
| **Arab (Middle East)** | Honor, Hospitality, and Family | Strong tribal and familial structures; respect and loyalty valued. |
| **Russian** | Resilience, Arts, and Science | Strong history in classical arts and scientific achievement. |
| **Australian** | Sports & Outdoor Lifestyle | Emphasis on balance, leisure, and physical activity. |
| **Scandinavian (e.g., Swedish, Finnish)** | Equality, Education, and Social Welfare | Focus on fairness, quality education, and work-life balance. |
| **Mexican** | Family, Celebration, and Faith | Tight family units; religion and traditions are central. |
| **Israeli** | Innovation, Security, and Education | Strong startup culture, military service, and emphasis on knowledge. |
| **Thai** | Hospitality, Respect, and Spirituality | Known for kindness, Buddhist values, and community respect. |
| **Italian** | Family, Food, and Style | La dolce vita mindset — enjoying life with style and passion. |

[Anonymous]

Wins:
Kids from all middle schools are now admitted.
Kids from low-income families are no longer shut out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

Right. I included the excerpt that was relevant. Curie pushed that multi-year program as the ultimate “test prep” option. They specifically mention the TJ admissions test.

You are the only person who is (weirdly) trying to narrowly define it.

Parents sign their kids up for all kinds of activities and enrichment just to get a leg up on TJ admissions.

Should we call these things “admissions boosters”?

Really where do they push it as the ultimate "test prep" option? I mean they seem to be going out of their way to say that this will not only prepare them for entrance exams but also for high school and college.

Right when they mentioned it was TJ test prep on steroids.

“ This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ “

Once again, you are clip quoting those words out of context. How does that sentence end?

Again, here is the full quote:

"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

Does this sound like they are advertising "TJ prep on steroids" or offering a program that will prepare students for academic success including passing admissions tests to places like TJ and AOS.

Yes, it sounds like TJ prep on steroids.

Parents are doing it to game admissions for TJ and potentially college.

Studying is not gamification.
And even if it were gamification, it's still better than racial discrimination.

DP. I have provided the most evidence by far of anyone on this board of the very problematic behavior of Curie and other test prep companies.

It is inappropriate to refer to what happened in this situation as "test buying", and it is equally inappropriate to refer to it as "studying".

What is appropriate is to call out the issues with making admissions decisions based on standardized tests when test-taking is a real skill, coached familiarity with the format confers massive advantages, and there is no real-world value to the skill of test-taking apart from academic admissions processes. There is no real-world problem that is solved by being a good test-taker.

There is a big difference between "studying math" and "paying thousands of dollars for boutique test prep to be ready for the Quant-Q exam". The latter is the reason why TJ has been inaccessible to low-income families for its entire recent history, and moreso as the years have gone on.

There was significant, demonstrable racial discrimination under the old admissions system and it was removed by virtue of the new admissions process. The fact that the process no longer discriminates in favor of resourced students and Asian students does not constitute an introduction of racial discrimination into the process. But you were probably okay with the racial and socioeconomic discrimination that took place under the old process because you felt like it was earned via the priorities of parents and communities.

The most important thing that happened in the introduction of the new admissions process was its devaluation of the efforts of parents. Parents should not be incentivized to build a childhood around admission to a high school (or a college, for that matter). They can certainly do it if they want to - I'm not here to tell parents what they should and shouldn't do - but they shouldn't be rewarded for that behavior. And the result of a narrow path to TJ admission for so many years was a staggering monoculture within the TJ building that had devastating effects on mental health and on college admissions outcomes.

It's pretty objectively a far better place now, though there's still more work to do to reintroduce the evaluation of actual merit (meaning the intersection of achievement AND circumstances) to the process. And there are ways to do that, but it's not going to happen if FCPS insists on funding only 2.5 positions in the TJ Admissions Office.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wins:
Kids from all middle schools are now admitted.
Kids from low-income families are no longer shut out.

Losers:

Tenfold increase in kids returning to their base school. Mostly low income families from quota schools.

120 pt drop in PSAT scores. 50% drop in NMSF.

Severe drop in SOL advance pass rates

Lower grades.

Less spectacular college admissions.

Reinforcement of racism against Asians particularly Indians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

Right. I included the excerpt that was relevant. Curie pushed that multi-year program as the ultimate “test prep” option. They specifically mention the TJ admissions test.

You are the only person who is (weirdly) trying to narrowly define it.

Parents sign their kids up for all kinds of activities and enrichment just to get a leg up on TJ admissions.

Should we call these things “admissions boosters”?

Really where do they push it as the ultimate "test prep" option? I mean they seem to be going out of their way to say that this will not only prepare them for entrance exams but also for high school and college.

Right when they mentioned it was TJ test prep on steroids.

“ This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ “

Once again, you are clip quoting those words out of context. How does that sentence end?

Again, here is the full quote:

"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

Does this sound like they are advertising "TJ prep on steroids" or offering a program that will prepare students for academic success including passing admissions tests to places like TJ and AOS.

Yes, it sounds like TJ prep on steroids.

Parents are doing it to game admissions for TJ and potentially college.

Studying is not gamification.
And even if it were gamification, it's still better than racial discrimination.

DP. I have provided the most evidence by far of anyone on this board of the very problematic behavior of Curie and other test prep companies.

It is inappropriate to refer to what happened in this situation as "test buying", and it is equally inappropriate to refer to it as "studying".

What is appropriate is to call out the issues with making admissions decisions based on standardized tests when test-taking is a real skill, coached familiarity with the format confers massive advantages, and there is no real-world value to the skill of test-taking apart from academic admissions processes. There is no real-world problem that is solved by being a good test-taker.

There is a big difference between "studying math" and "paying thousands of dollars for boutique test prep to be ready for the Quant-Q exam". The latter is the reason why TJ has been inaccessible to low-income families for its entire recent history, and moreso as the years have gone on.

There was significant, demonstrable racial discrimination under the old admissions system and it was removed by virtue of the new admissions process. The fact that the process no longer discriminates in favor of resourced students and Asian students does not constitute an introduction of racial discrimination into the process. But you were probably okay with the racial and socioeconomic discrimination that took place under the old process because you felt like it was earned via the priorities of parents and communities.

The most important thing that happened in the introduction of the new admissions process was its devaluation of the efforts of parents. Parents should not be incentivized to build a childhood around admission to a high school (or a college, for that matter). They can certainly do it if they want to - I'm not here to tell parents what they should and shouldn't do - but they shouldn't be rewarded for that behavior. And the result of a narrow path to TJ admission for so many years was a staggering monoculture within the TJ building that had devastating effects on mental health and on college admissions outcomes.

It's pretty objectively a far better place now, though there's still more work to do to reintroduce the evaluation of actual merit (meaning the intersection of achievement AND circumstances) to the process. And there are ways to do that, but it's not going to happen if FCPS insists on funding only 2.5 positions in the TJ Admissions Office.

Exactly.

And the first year of quant q had 1.5% farm. Pretty much in line with proir years. Nobody could "prep" for quant Q, so why didn't we see an increase in those low income students that year?

This is just an excuse. Economic diversity was NEVER the focus. It was at Best a side show. Racial diversity was the objective and the hearings leading up to this change made that clear. that meant fewer Asians and more of everyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

Right. I included the excerpt that was relevant. Curie pushed that multi-year program as the ultimate “test prep” option. They specifically mention the TJ admissions test.

You are the only person who is (weirdly) trying to narrowly define it.

Parents sign their kids up for all kinds of activities and enrichment just to get a leg up on TJ admissions.

Should we call these things “admissions boosters”?

Really where do they push it as the ultimate "test prep" option? I mean they seem to be going out of their way to say that this will not only prepare them for entrance exams but also for high school and college.

Right when they mentioned it was TJ test prep on steroids.

“ This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ “

Once again, you are clip quoting those words out of context. How does that sentence end?

Again, here is the full quote:

"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

Does this sound like they are advertising "TJ prep on steroids" or offering a program that will prepare students for academic success including passing admissions tests to places like TJ and AOS.

Yes, it sounds like TJ prep on steroids.

Parents are doing it to game admissions for TJ and potentially college.

Studying is not gamification.
And even if it were gamification, it's still better than racial discrimination.

DP. I have provided the most evidence by far of anyone on this board of the very problematic behavior of Curie and other test prep companies.

It is inappropriate to refer to what happened in this situation as "test buying", and it is equally inappropriate to refer to it as "studying".

What is appropriate is to call out the issues with making admissions decisions based on standardized tests when test-taking is a real skill, coached familiarity with the format confers massive advantages, and there is no real-world value to the skill of test-taking apart from academic admissions processes. There is no real-world problem that is solved by being a good test-taker.

There is a big difference between "studying math" and "paying thousands of dollars for boutique test prep to be ready for the Quant-Q exam". The latter is the reason why TJ has been inaccessible to low-income families for its entire recent history, and moreso as the years have gone on.

There was significant, demonstrable racial discrimination under the old admissions system and it was removed by virtue of the new admissions process. The fact that the process no longer discriminates in favor of resourced students and Asian students does not constitute an introduction of racial discrimination into the process. But you were probably okay with the racial and socioeconomic discrimination that took place under the old process because you felt like it was earned via the priorities of parents and communities.

The most important thing that happened in the introduction of the new admissions process was its devaluation of the efforts of parents. Parents should not be incentivized to build a childhood around admission to a high school (or a college, for that matter). They can certainly do it if they want to - I'm not here to tell parents what they should and shouldn't do - but they shouldn't be rewarded for that behavior. And the result of a narrow path to TJ admission for so many years was a staggering monoculture within the TJ building that had devastating effects on mental health and on college admissions outcomes.

It's pretty objectively a far better place now, though there's still more work to do to reintroduce the evaluation of actual merit (meaning the intersection of achievement AND circumstances) to the process. And there are ways to do that, but it's not going to happen if FCPS insists on funding only 2.5 positions in the TJ Admissions Office.

Exactly.

And the first year of quant q had 1.5% farm. Pretty much in line with proir years. Nobody could "prep" for quant Q, so why didn't we see an increase in those low income students that year?

This is just an excuse. Economic diversity was NEVER the focus. It was at Best a side show. Racial diversity was the objective and the hearings leading up to this change made that clear. that meant fewer Asians and more of everyone else.

Claiming a small percentage increase in FARM doesn’t yield much politically. However, waiving a racial diversity chart carries significant political weight.

All said, it's the type of students stepping up to put in the hardwork for four years VS. political manipulation of admissions.

Who is still winning? Political manipulation can never touch the top half of the class. at the same time political manipulation can merely present an offer, but cannot demand a student to study to the required rigor. Sure, now there is increased diversity in bottom half, but that is where all the problems have been introduced - return to base school in freshman, soliciting froshmores to backfill and coverup freshman departures, poor grades, lowest math proficiency, lowered SOL/PSAT, minimal AP enrollment, zero post-AP course enrollment, etc.

The big assumption fcps continues to operate TJ under is for as long as the top half of TJ is filled with students from Longfellow, Carson, Cooper, Rocky Run, and best of LCPS, etc.., the bottom half Cs and Ds may not damage TJ’s reputation or national standing all that much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

Right. I included the excerpt that was relevant. Curie pushed that multi-year program as the ultimate “test prep” option. They specifically mention the TJ admissions test.

You are the only person who is (weirdly) trying to narrowly define it.

Parents sign their kids up for all kinds of activities and enrichment just to get a leg up on TJ admissions.

Should we call these things “admissions boosters”?

Really where do they push it as the ultimate "test prep" option? I mean they seem to be going out of their way to say that this will not only prepare them for entrance exams but also for high school and college.

Right when they mentioned it was TJ test prep on steroids.

“ This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ “

Once again, you are clip quoting those words out of context. How does that sentence end?

Again, here is the full quote:

"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

Does this sound like they are advertising "TJ prep on steroids" or offering a program that will prepare students for academic success including passing admissions tests to places like TJ and AOS.

Yes, it sounds like TJ prep on steroids.

Parents are doing it to game admissions for TJ and potentially college.

Studying is not gamification.
And even if it were gamification, it's still better than racial discrimination.

DP. I have provided the most evidence by far of anyone on this board of the very problematic behavior of Curie and other test prep companies.

It is inappropriate to refer to what happened in this situation as "test buying", and it is equally inappropriate to refer to it as "studying".

What is appropriate is to call out the issues with making admissions decisions based on standardized tests when test-taking is a real skill, coached familiarity with the format confers massive advantages, and there is no real-world value to the skill of test-taking apart from academic admissions processes. There is no real-world problem that is solved by being a good test-taker.

There is a big difference between "studying math" and "paying thousands of dollars for boutique test prep to be ready for the Quant-Q exam". The latter is the reason why TJ has been inaccessible to low-income families for its entire recent history, and moreso as the years have gone on.

There was significant, demonstrable racial discrimination under the old admissions system and it was removed by virtue of the new admissions process. The fact that the process no longer discriminates in favor of resourced students and Asian students does not constitute an introduction of racial discrimination into the process. But you were probably okay with the racial and socioeconomic discrimination that took place under the old process because you felt like it was earned via the priorities of parents and communities.

The most important thing that happened in the introduction of the new admissions process was its devaluation of the efforts of parents. Parents should not be incentivized to build a childhood around admission to a high school (or a college, for that matter). They can certainly do it if they want to - I'm not here to tell parents what they should and shouldn't do - but they shouldn't be rewarded for that behavior. And the result of a narrow path to TJ admission for so many years was a staggering monoculture within the TJ building that had devastating effects on mental health and on college admissions outcomes.

It's pretty objectively a far better place now, though there's still more work to do to reintroduce the evaluation of actual merit (meaning the intersection of achievement AND circumstances) to the process. And there are ways to do that, but it's not going to happen if FCPS insists on funding only 2.5 positions in the TJ Admissions Office.

Exactly.

And the first year of quant q had 1.5% farm. Pretty much in line with proir years. Nobody could "prep" for quant Q, so why didn't we see an increase in those low income students that year?

This is just an excuse. Economic diversity was NEVER the focus. It was at Best a side show. Racial diversity was the objective and the hearings leading up to this change made that clear. that meant fewer Asians and more of everyone else.

Claiming a small percentage increase in FARM doesn’t yield much politically. However, waiving a racial diversity chart carries significant political weight.

All said, it's the type of students stepping up to put in the hardwork for four years VS. political manipulation of admissions.

Who is still winning? Political manipulation can never touch the top half of the class. at the same time political manipulation can merely present an offer, but cannot demand a student to study to the required rigor. Sure, now there is increased diversity in bottom half, but that is where all the problems have been introduced - return to base school in freshman, soliciting froshmores to backfill and coverup freshman departures, poor grades, lowest math proficiency, lowered SOL/PSAT, minimal AP enrollment, zero post-AP course enrollment, etc.

The big assumption fcps continues to operate TJ under is for as long as the top half of TJ is filled with students from Longfellow, Carson, Cooper, Rocky Run, and best of LCPS, etc.., the bottom half Cs and Ds may not damage TJ’s reputation or national standing all that much.

+1000

Never thought of it this way, but makes sense. I would add that the old process resulted in fewer mistakes in the top 50% of the class. An exceptional student might not be offered admission in the new process because there is little to go by - teacher recommendations being a very important data point that is being missed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

Right. I included the excerpt that was relevant. Curie pushed that multi-year program as the ultimate “test prep” option. They specifically mention the TJ admissions test.

You are the only person who is (weirdly) trying to narrowly define it.

Parents sign their kids up for all kinds of activities and enrichment just to get a leg up on TJ admissions.

Should we call these things “admissions boosters”?

Really where do they push it as the ultimate "test prep" option? I mean they seem to be going out of their way to say that this will not only prepare them for entrance exams but also for high school and college.

Right when they mentioned it was TJ test prep on steroids.

“ This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ “

Once again, you are clip quoting those words out of context. How does that sentence end?

Again, here is the full quote:

"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

Does this sound like they are advertising "TJ prep on steroids" or offering a program that will prepare students for academic success including passing admissions tests to places like TJ and AOS.

Yes, it sounds like TJ prep on steroids.

Parents are doing it to game admissions for TJ and potentially college.

Studying is not gamification.
And even if it were gamification, it's still better than racial discrimination.

DP. I have provided the most evidence by far of anyone on this board of the very problematic behavior of Curie and other test prep companies.

It is inappropriate to refer to what happened in this situation as "test buying", and it is equally inappropriate to refer to it as "studying".

What is appropriate is to call out the issues with making admissions decisions based on standardized tests when test-taking is a real skill, coached familiarity with the format confers massive advantages, and there is no real-world value to the skill of test-taking apart from academic admissions processes. There is no real-world problem that is solved by being a good test-taker.

There is a big difference between "studying math" and "paying thousands of dollars for boutique test prep to be ready for the Quant-Q exam". The latter is the reason why TJ has been inaccessible to low-income families for its entire recent history, and moreso as the years have gone on.

There was significant, demonstrable racial discrimination under the old admissions system and it was removed by virtue of the new admissions process. The fact that the process no longer discriminates in favor of resourced students and Asian students does not constitute an introduction of racial discrimination into the process. But you were probably okay with the racial and socioeconomic discrimination that took place under the old process because you felt like it was earned via the priorities of parents and communities.

The most important thing that happened in the introduction of the new admissions process was its devaluation of the efforts of parents. Parents should not be incentivized to build a childhood around admission to a high school (or a college, for that matter). They can certainly do it if they want to - I'm not here to tell parents what they should and shouldn't do - but they shouldn't be rewarded for that behavior. And the result of a narrow path to TJ admission for so many years was a staggering monoculture within the TJ building that had devastating effects on mental health and on college admissions outcomes.

It's pretty objectively a far better place now, though there's still more work to do to reintroduce the evaluation of actual merit (meaning the intersection of achievement AND circumstances) to the process. And there are ways to do that, but it's not going to happen if FCPS insists on funding only 2.5 positions in the TJ Admissions Office.

Exactly.

And the first year of quant q had 1.5% farm. Pretty much in line with proir years. Nobody could "prep" for quant Q, so why didn't we see an increase in those low income students that year?

This is just an excuse. Economic diversity was NEVER the focus. It was at Best a side show. Racial diversity was the objective and the hearings leading up to this change made that clear. that meant fewer Asians and more of everyone else.

Claiming a small percentage increase in FARM doesn’t yield much politically. However, waiving a racial diversity chart carries significant political weight.

All said, it's the type of students stepping up to put in the hardwork for four years VS. political manipulation of admissions.

Who is still winning? Political manipulation can never touch the top half of the class. at the same time political manipulation can merely present an offer, but cannot demand a student to study to the required rigor. Sure, now there is increased diversity in bottom half, but that is where all the problems have been introduced - return to base school in freshman, soliciting froshmores to backfill and coverup freshman departures, poor grades, lowest math proficiency, lowered SOL/PSAT, minimal AP enrollment, zero post-AP course enrollment, etc.

The big assumption fcps continues to operate TJ under is for as long as the top half of TJ is filled with students from Longfellow, Carson, Cooper, Rocky Run, and best of LCPS, etc.., the bottom half Cs and Ds may not damage TJ’s reputation or national standing all that much.

The top half isnt even the best 275 students. It's not even getting the best students from those schools you mention. The self selection of the applicant pool is what is keeping up the standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

Right. I included the excerpt that was relevant. Curie pushed that multi-year program as the ultimate “test prep” option. They specifically mention the TJ admissions test.

You are the only person who is (weirdly) trying to narrowly define it.

Parents sign their kids up for all kinds of activities and enrichment just to get a leg up on TJ admissions.

Should we call these things “admissions boosters”?

Really where do they push it as the ultimate "test prep" option? I mean they seem to be going out of their way to say that this will not only prepare them for entrance exams but also for high school and college.

Right when they mentioned it was TJ test prep on steroids.

“ This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ “

Once again, you are clip quoting those words out of context. How does that sentence end?

Again, here is the full quote:

"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

Does this sound like they are advertising "TJ prep on steroids" or offering a program that will prepare students for academic success including passing admissions tests to places like TJ and AOS.

Yes, it sounds like TJ prep on steroids.

Parents are doing it to game admissions for TJ and potentially college.

Studying is not gamification.
And even if it were gamification, it's still better than racial discrimination.

DP. I have provided the most evidence by far of anyone on this board of the very problematic behavior of Curie and other test prep companies.

It is inappropriate to refer to what happened in this situation as "test buying", and it is equally inappropriate to refer to it as "studying".

What is appropriate is to call out the issues with making admissions decisions based on standardized tests when test-taking is a real skill, coached familiarity with the format confers massive advantages, and there is no real-world value to the skill of test-taking apart from academic admissions processes. There is no real-world problem that is solved by being a good test-taker.

There is a big difference between "studying math" and "paying thousands of dollars for boutique test prep to be ready for the Quant-Q exam". The latter is the reason why TJ has been inaccessible to low-income families for its entire recent history, and moreso as the years have gone on.

There was significant, demonstrable racial discrimination under the old admissions system and it was removed by virtue of the new admissions process. The fact that the process no longer discriminates in favor of resourced students and Asian students does not constitute an introduction of racial discrimination into the process. But you were probably okay with the racial and socioeconomic discrimination that took place under the old process because you felt like it was earned via the priorities of parents and communities.

The most important thing that happened in the introduction of the new admissions process was its devaluation of the efforts of parents. Parents should not be incentivized to build a childhood around admission to a high school (or a college, for that matter). They can certainly do it if they want to - I'm not here to tell parents what they should and shouldn't do - but they shouldn't be rewarded for that behavior. And the result of a narrow path to TJ admission for so many years was a staggering monoculture within the TJ building that had devastating effects on mental health and on college admissions outcomes.

It's pretty objectively a far better place now, though there's still more work to do to reintroduce the evaluation of actual merit (meaning the intersection of achievement AND circumstances) to the process. And there are ways to do that, but it's not going to happen if FCPS insists on funding only 2.5 positions in the TJ Admissions Office.

Exactly.

And the first year of quant q had 1.5% farm. Pretty much in line with proir years. Nobody could "prep" for quant Q, so why didn't we see an increase in those low income students that year?

This is just an excuse. Economic diversity was NEVER the focus. It was at Best a side show. Racial diversity was the objective and the hearings leading up to this change made that clear. that meant fewer Asians and more of everyone else.

Claiming a small percentage increase in FARM doesn’t yield much politically. However, waiving a racial diversity chart carries significant political weight.

All said, it's the type of students stepping up to put in the hardwork for four years VS. political manipulation of admissions.

Who is still winning? Political manipulation can never touch the top half of the class. at the same time political manipulation can merely present an offer, but cannot demand a student to study to the required rigor. Sure, now there is increased diversity in bottom half, but that is where all the problems have been introduced - return to base school in freshman, soliciting froshmores to backfill and coverup freshman departures, poor grades, lowest math proficiency, lowered SOL/PSAT, minimal AP enrollment, zero post-AP course enrollment, etc.

The big assumption fcps continues to operate TJ under is for as long as the top half of TJ is filled with students from Longfellow, Carson, Cooper, Rocky Run, and best of LCPS, etc.., the bottom half Cs and Ds may not damage TJ’s reputation or national standing all that much.

+1000

Never thought of it this way, but makes sense. I would add that the old process resulted in fewer mistakes in the top 50% of the class. An exceptional student might not be offered admission in the new process because there is little to go by - teacher recommendations being a very important data point that is being missed.

Froshmore admissions seems to be the pressure valve for that. A lot of the best students that didn't get in as freshmen are getting in as froshmores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

Right. I included the excerpt that was relevant. Curie pushed that multi-year program as the ultimate “test prep” option. They specifically mention the TJ admissions test.

You are the only person who is (weirdly) trying to narrowly define it.

Parents sign their kids up for all kinds of activities and enrichment just to get a leg up on TJ admissions.

Should we call these things “admissions boosters”?

Really where do they push it as the ultimate "test prep" option? I mean they seem to be going out of their way to say that this will not only prepare them for entrance exams but also for high school and college.

Right when they mentioned it was TJ test prep on steroids.

“ This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ “

Once again, you are clip quoting those words out of context. How does that sentence end?

Again, here is the full quote:

"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

Does this sound like they are advertising "TJ prep on steroids" or offering a program that will prepare students for academic success including passing admissions tests to places like TJ and AOS.

Yes, it sounds like TJ prep on steroids.

Parents are doing it to game admissions for TJ and potentially college.

Studying is not gamification.
And even if it were gamification, it's still better than racial discrimination.

DP. I have provided the most evidence by far of anyone on this board of the very problematic behavior of Curie and other test prep companies.

It is inappropriate to refer to what happened in this situation as "test buying", and it is equally inappropriate to refer to it as "studying".

What is appropriate is to call out the issues with making admissions decisions based on standardized tests when test-taking is a real skill, coached familiarity with the format confers massive advantages, and there is no real-world value to the skill of test-taking apart from academic admissions processes. There is no real-world problem that is solved by being a good test-taker.

There is a big difference between "studying math" and "paying thousands of dollars for boutique test prep to be ready for the Quant-Q exam". The latter is the reason why TJ has been inaccessible to low-income families for its entire recent history, and moreso as the years have gone on.

There was significant, demonstrable racial discrimination under the old admissions system and it was removed by virtue of the new admissions process. The fact that the process no longer discriminates in favor of resourced students and Asian students does not constitute an introduction of racial discrimination into the process. But you were probably okay with the racial and socioeconomic discrimination that took place under the old process because you felt like it was earned via the priorities of parents and communities.

The most important thing that happened in the introduction of the new admissions process was its devaluation of the efforts of parents. Parents should not be incentivized to build a childhood around admission to a high school (or a college, for that matter). They can certainly do it if they want to - I'm not here to tell parents what they should and shouldn't do - but they shouldn't be rewarded for that behavior. And the result of a narrow path to TJ admission for so many years was a staggering monoculture within the TJ building that had devastating effects on mental health and on college admissions outcomes.

It's pretty objectively a far better place now, though there's still more work to do to reintroduce the evaluation of actual merit (meaning the intersection of achievement AND circumstances) to the process. And there are ways to do that, but it's not going to happen if FCPS insists on funding only 2.5 positions in the TJ Admissions Office.

Exactly.

And the first year of quant q had 1.5% farm. Pretty much in line with proir years. Nobody could "prep" for quant Q, so why didn't we see an increase in those low income students that year?

This is just an excuse. Economic diversity was NEVER the focus. It was at Best a side show. Racial diversity was the objective and the hearings leading up to this change made that clear. that meant fewer Asians and more of everyone else.

Claiming a small percentage increase in FARM doesn’t yield much politically. However, waiving a racial diversity chart carries significant political weight.

All said, it's the type of students stepping up to put in the hardwork for four years VS. political manipulation of admissions.

Who is still winning? Political manipulation can never touch the top half of the class. at the same time political manipulation can merely present an offer, but cannot demand a student to study to the required rigor. Sure, now there is increased diversity in bottom half, but that is where all the problems have been introduced - return to base school in freshman, soliciting froshmores to backfill and coverup freshman departures, poor grades, lowest math proficiency, lowered SOL/PSAT, minimal AP enrollment, zero post-AP course enrollment, etc.

The big assumption fcps continues to operate TJ under is for as long as the top half of TJ is filled with students from Longfellow, Carson, Cooper, Rocky Run, and best of LCPS, etc.., the bottom half Cs and Ds may not damage TJ’s reputation or national standing all that much.

+1000

Never thought of it this way, but makes sense. I would add that the old process resulted in fewer mistakes in the top 50% of the class. An exceptional student might not be offered admission in the new process because there is little to go by - teacher recommendations being a very important data point that is being missed.

Froshmore admissions seems to be the pressure valve for that. A lot of the best students that didn't get in as freshmen are getting in as froshmores.

Are you an admin/teacher at TJ? How could you possibly know this?