The White Lotus season 2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albies butt is so gross and I knew that English wanker was a gay

You know that the correct way to phrase this is “I knew that English wanker was gay,” right? I think you know that. Unless you are in the in-group, you don’t refer to people as “a gay,” “a Black,” or “a Jew.” Unless you’re deliberately trying to be inflammatory.

DP. Please. We’re talking I’m the context of the show here. Tanya herself said “hey, these are some high-end gays!” to Portia.

Do you really want to emulate Tanya? She's not exactly known for her sensitivity and thoughtfulness. It made her sound crass, because it was. She is crass, despite, or perhaps because of, her money.

DP - I don't understand all the people that want to hang around with Tanya. I find her GRATING.

As far as the last episode, do you think she was drugged or just drunk? As she's walking through the villa the lights and decor seem kind of distorted as we see it through her point of view. And one other thing is still in the back of my mind - Essex rent boy makes a point to tell Portia to leave the door unlocked for him. I thought that was odd and also something that was put there for the audience to pay attention to. Couldn't he just knock? Couldn't he text and say, hey, open the door, I'm coming back.

I'm also wondering if Tanya is so self-absorbed, and drunk or possibly drugged, that she even processes that they guy she saw is Portia's little fling?

Last, I'm thinking Quentin is not so bad as a murderer but is more a Dirty Rotten Scoundrels type con artist. He mentioned the neverending upkeep of the villa and Essex rent boy previously mentioned that the only women that visit the villa are "old hags."

She definitely knew because in the scenes for next week she warns Portia about him. She doesn't come out and say she saw him banging one of the dudes, but she alludes to him not being who he says he is.[/quote]

Off-topic, but thank you for using allude correctly. I had an email yesterday where a senior management type used "eluded" instead of "alluded" and I just need people to enable the dictionary thing on their computer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albies butt is so gross and I knew that English wanker was a gay

You know that the correct way to phrase this is “I knew that English wanker was gay,” right? I think you know that. Unless you are in the in-group, you don’t refer to people as “a gay,” “a Black,” or “a Jew.” Unless you’re deliberately trying to be inflammatory.

DP. Please. We’re talking I’m the context of the show here. Tanya herself said “hey, these are some high-end gays!” to Portia.

Do you really want to emulate Tanya? She's not exactly known for her sensitivity and thoughtfulness. It made her sound crass, because it was. She is crass, despite, or perhaps because of, her money.

I’d drink with her in a Sicilian hotel. It’d be fun.

She would be a hoot to hang out with at a White Lotus, 100000%.

I actually was surprised - and even moved - at the change in her demeanor when she was out with Quentin and his friends. She seemed more grounded - even with that funny question about whether the woman was the queen of Sicily. There was just a different air about her. I guess it tied in with that line - which I also found surprisingly insightful and profound - about how she relaxes when she's with people with money because she knows they don't want anything from her. Though I think she spoke too soon in that case. It would be nice if it turns out this isn't a terrible scam but that seems unlikely. I just want Tanya to wind up all right in the end - with companionship and some peace, but fun. It's not like she deserves it! But I guess it's a tribute to her acting and Mike White's writing that I still am rooting for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albies butt is so gross and I knew that English wanker was a gay

You know that the correct way to phrase this is “I knew that English wanker was gay,” right? I think you know that. Unless you are in the in-group, you don’t refer to people as “a gay,” “a Black,” or “a Jew.” Unless you’re deliberately trying to be inflammatory.

DP. Please. We’re talking I’m the context of the show here. Tanya herself said “hey, these are some high-end gays!” to Portia.

Do you really want to emulate Tanya? She's not exactly known for her sensitivity and thoughtfulness. It made her sound crass, because it was. She is crass, despite, or perhaps because of, her money.

DP - I don't understand all the people that want to hang around with Tanya. I find her GRATING.

As far as the last episode, do you think she was drugged or just drunk? As she's walking through the villa the lights and decor seem kind of distorted as we see it through her point of view. And one other thing is still in the back of my mind - Essex rent boy makes a point to tell Portia to leave the door unlocked for him. I thought that was odd and also something that was put there for the audience to pay attention to. Couldn't he just knock? Couldn't he text and say, hey, open the door, I'm coming back.

I'm also wondering if Tanya is so self-absorbed, and drunk or possibly drugged, that she even processes that they guy she saw is Portia's little fling?

Last, I'm thinking Quentin is not so bad as a murderer but is more a Dirty Rotten Scoundrels type con artist. He mentioned the neverending upkeep of the villa and Essex rent boy previously mentioned that the only women that visit the villa are "old hags."

She definitely knew because in the scenes for next week she warns Portia about him. She doesn't come out and say she saw him banging one of the dudes, but she alludes to him not being who he says he is.[/quote]

Off-topic, but thank you for using allude correctly. I had an email yesterday where a senior management type used "eluded" instead of "alluded" and I just need people to enable the dictionary thing on their computer.

Ha. I'm a STEM major, btw, and work in STEM so that is a great compliment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mike White famously loves the show Survivor and even appeared in a season of the show. I think there are a ton of Survivor parallels in White Lotus and since I have nothing better to do this morning (just kidding, I have a long to do list but zero desire to tackle it) here are some of the parallels I see. Obviously the show is not strictly a game and no one is getting "voted out", but White is clearly playing with some of the tropes of the game in my eyes:

Alliances

Alliances are central to Survivor game play and are the source of the vast majority of interpersonal drama. Some alliances can form early on in the game and last to the bitter end, essentially securing the final two or the winner's win. But most alliances shift throughout the game as people are eliminated and other players have to hop to new alliances with better numbers to protect themselves.

The most obvious alliances parallel involves Portia, who arrives with Tanya but is immediately banished by Greg (early alliances are often based purely on who you like and don't like, personality-wise). She then gloms onto Albie and his dad and grandad. Nursing a flirtation from an interested party to form an alliance is a Survivor classic, and one way that younger women on the show who might otherwise be considered liabilities early on for lacking physical strength, secure safety during the early part of the game.

There are other alliances going on as well. The foursome start out with to obvious alliances -- the Spillers and the Babcocks. But then Daphne clearly tries to recruit Harper to her alliance (is it her individual alliance or one she shares with Cameron? it's unclear) when they go to Noto. Noticeably, no one seems to be recruiting Ethan. If Harper turns against him, he has no protection.

Tanya has been recruited by the gays to their alliance but it feels nefarious. Mia and Lucia were allied with Dom but they crossed to many lines with Albie and the grandad, so he's told them he's through with them.

Blindsides

This is when a player flips on an alliance at the last minute, voting against someone they'd previously promised to help protect. Blindsides are a survivor classic. You can see blindside parallels in the way Portia ditches Albie for Jack, effectively switching her alliance from the Di Grassos to the gays. But Tanya's discovery at the end of the last episode indicate a blindside is in the works with the gays as well, though it's not clear exactly what it will be. I suspect, as others do, that the gays are secretly allied with Greg, putting both Tanya and Portia in danger.

Harper's discovery of the condom wrapper felt like a blindside, since Ethan had in fact been lying to her all day about what happened with Cameron. On the other hand, I think the ultimate alliances in the foursome are very much up in the air and Harper might be looking to convince both Cameron and Daphne that she's joining their alliance against Ethan, only to blindside them in the end in an act of loyalty to her husband.

Whoever dies is likely getting the ultimate blindside and I do think White is trying to make this as surprising for the audience as possible, so I think the biggest blindside is yet to come and likely to be a shock.

Swing Votes

A Survivor classic, this is what happens when you have two equally sized alliances and one or two people who are unaligned. The wooing of the swing votes is a Survivor mainstay. I think the most obvious swing votes are Mia and Lucia, who have a tight alliance with each other but very weak alliances with others (Dom, Albie, Cam, Valentina) often based on temporary goodwill or a financial transaction. They are playing games and swing votes often get caught up in their temporary power only to get quickly punished for this as soon as the number shift and they are no longer needed. I fear this is what will happen with Lucia for sure. Mia seems a little more cautious and thus maybe safer but we'll see.

Portia is also a potential swing vote and could help or hurt Tanya with the dangerous situation in Palermo.

Tribal Council

Tribal Council, where someone is voted out or, in the last episode, where the winner is selected, happens at the end of every episode of survivor. This last episode had MAJOR tribal council vibes at the end, with both the dinner hour at the hotel and the opera in Palermo. Right down to classic Survivor imagery of fire and close ups of statues, plus the White Lotus scores always gives Survivor with the wordless chanting -- if you are much of a Survivor watcher, it's hard to avoid the obvious references.

Anyway, tribal council is where a lot of $hit goes down but because it's very public, with everyone sitting in a circle, it's hard to scheme. There are a LOT of meaningful glances. Kind of like the dinner with the foursome. Sometimes players will even have hurried, whispered conversations before the vote to try and change a plan last minute based on what has been said at Council. When Mia went off with Cameron in full view of Albie, it had that feeling of Lucia trying to swing a vote last minute using Cameron as a tool. The Di Grassos have also had a lot of Tribal Council-esque glances through the show during dinner, as gramps and Dom track the location of Mia/Lucia, and gramps also tracks Dom's tracking of Mia/Lucia.

The foursome always feels Tribal Council-y to me at their dinners, with revelations and accusations thrown out, never more so than in this last episode. Cameron grabbing Harper's knee under the table reminded me of the way players sometimes slip other people immunity idols at council, though I don't think Cameron wants to give Harper immunity, if you know what I mean (lol).

Often, after tribal council, the show will follow the tribe back to camp where they will go to sleep. Only sometimes some people don't go to sleep and there is activity -- idol hiding, alliance conversations, etc. Kind of like how Jack went to hide his idol after leaving Portia, wink-wink (I know I'm being silly, I enjoy the innuendo!).

That's all I've got for now. I saw some Survivor references in the first season but they are out of control in this season and I think it's clear White was heavily inspired by his fandom and likely also his experience on the show. It's also clearly a passionate interest of his -- I think his interest in class and hierarchies dovetails nicely with his interest in Survivor. It's also what I like about that show too -- it has a way of exposing people in the most fascinating ways, both their worst impulses (betrayal, exploitation, lying and stealing) and their surprising vulnerabilities and resiliency.

One thing about Survivor is that nasty people never win. They can't, everyone hates them. The winners are always schemers and pretty much no one ever wins without telling at least a few little lies. But the winners usually have strong social skills and are genuinely likable, or have qualities that help others respect them. That's how they get the votes at the end even after participating in voting off a lot of the jury. This aspect of Survivor makes me think it's unlike Mia or Lucia wind up dead (schemers, sure, but too plucky and likable to be hated) and also that Tanya probably makes it out alive. Cameron though... he's the sort who would make it deep in the game and then be gloriously ousted by the exact people he's been cruelest to. My money is on Daphne, Harper, or Ethan, or potentially all three, killing Cameron in an extremely satisfying way. The slaying of the villains has long been my favorite Survivor feature -- nasty people never win.

Fellow survivor fan here. I do think Mike has been heavily influenced by his time on survivor and this is interesting but it feels like a reach in a lot of places. One thing I'd actively push back on though is the bolded. This is kind of true on survivor (not universally though, see the OG Richard Hatch even), but it is not true in The White Lotus. To the contrary at the end of season one everyone basically went back to their lives. Steve Zahn's family left basically unchanged (except maybe the son, who saw an opportunity for transformation and took it). The person most severely effected was the guy who tried to steal from them for his girlfriend. The friend who orchestrated that goes unpunished. The guy who dies is not the worst person on the show but he was hardly the villain. The murderer gets off. Tanya destroys that massage workers dreams after leading her on for a week and then disappears with a man and her money. The White Lotus says that you can be horrible and rarely face consequences, and it is strongest when it is showing the mundane cruelty of people. The little things that happen everyday that show who a person is, and slowly corrupt them further. How one bad choice leads to another. How you can't contain the damage of being awful, but how other people are awful too.

This is not a show about the good guy winning.

[Anonymous]

I eluded the police by alluding to another suspect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:So Daphne’s children are from personal trainer, correct?

That's my guess.

Why do you think so? I thought that whole exchange was so strange. Like there is no personal trainer?

She made a comment about the trainer's blue eyes and then the kid in the pic had blue eyes.

I thought it meant she deals with the husband’s crap for her kids.

That's not how I took that at all. I took that exchange as communicating a few things - 1) Daphne is really hurt by Cameron's cheating but can't stop him and doesn't want a divorce; 2) she doesn't want to confront it or to discuss it with Harper; 3) a demonstration that she has her own secrets/own ways of getting even.

In the interview with the actors afterwards Theo and Megan both agreed that Cameron loves Daphne and is in fact protective of the relationship even is he is a cheating jerk.

I agree with this read on Daphne. I do think one of the kids could be the trainer's but it is purposefully ambiguous. The actress who played Daphne said in an interview that White and she both felt strongly that Daphne did not feel like she was a victim. That she saw her life clearly, and did not feel like she was a victim of that life.

[Anonymous]

Did the spa worker put a curse on Tanya in the first season? Tanya wonders about that in Season 2 and I can't remember.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did the spa worker put a curse on Tanya in the first season? Tanya wonders about that in Season 2 and I can't remember.

No, not that we saw - and even if she did, I don't think WL believes in magic like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albies butt is so gross and I knew that English wanker was a gay

You know that the correct way to phrase this is “I knew that English wanker was gay,” right? I think you know that. Unless you are in the in-group, you don’t refer to people as “a gay,” “a Black,” or “a Jew.” Unless you’re deliberately trying to be inflammatory.

DP. Please. We’re talking I’m the context of the show here. Tanya herself said “hey, these are some high-end gays!” to Portia.

Do you really want to emulate Tanya? She's not exactly known for her sensitivity and thoughtfulness. It made her sound crass, because it was. She is crass, despite, or perhaps because of, her money.

DP - I don't understand all the people that want to hang around with Tanya. I find her GRATING.

As far as the last episode, do you think she was drugged or just drunk? As she's walking through the villa the lights and decor seem kind of distorted as we see it through her point of view. And one other thing is still in the back of my mind - Essex rent boy makes a point to tell Portia to leave the door unlocked for him. I thought that was odd and also something that was put there for the audience to pay attention to. Couldn't he just knock? Couldn't he text and say, hey, open the door, I'm coming back.

I'm also wondering if Tanya is so self-absorbed, and drunk or possibly drugged, that she even processes that they guy she saw is Portia's little fling?

Last, I'm thinking Quentin is not so bad as a murderer but is more a Dirty Rotten Scoundrels type con artist. He mentioned the neverending upkeep of the villa and Essex rent boy previously mentioned that the only women that visit the villa are "old hags."

She definitely knew because in the scenes for next week she warns Portia about him. She doesn't come out and say she saw him banging one of the dudes, but she alludes to him not being who he says he is.

Exactly, she warns Portia so she definitely knew it was him, and he probably told Portia to unlock her door because he figured she'd fall asleep (and thus wouldn't answer knocking or texts as you suggest)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did the spa worker put a curse on Tanya in the first season? Tanya wonders about that in Season 2 and I can't remember.

Tanya wonders about this because she's racist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Didn’t Daphne run into Cameron’s arms after discovering the body in Ep1?

I need to rewatch but I don’t think Cam dies.

My money’s on Grandpa, Greg, and a gay guy to die.

No - if you re-watch that scene, there's a guy to the right of the two women Daphne talks to - he's dark haired, wearing sunglasses, and has a short beard, in swim trunks. When she starts running out of the water - look in the background. You see him get up from his chair. I am almost 100% sure it's him that catches her on the beach. Then the camera kind of moves through the crowd. I didn't see any of the known cast in the crowd.

Interesting in that, so far, that is the only time she is alone. She is always with her husband or Harper.

Yes. That whole scene is interesting. She's there with her huge bag and her aperol, vacant chair next to her as if she's expecting her husband and then she makes this weird little speech, which is out introduction into her character. It's all a little "off," IMO.

I think she's the mastermind and poisons him and/or lets him drown. Almost every scene she has, she references killing - even this one she says that they will have to drag you out of here. It would be quite the Survivor twist if seemingly the least intelligent member of the group ends up "winning it all".

Another interesting scene is who he chose from Survivor to guest. The women Daphne is talking to were on his season of Survivor. And Angelina in particular was a VERY controversial cast member. She was controversial because she played more like a man than a woman, she constantly hunted for idols, she lied, she was very aggressive, she did not take a backseat and let others play the game for her. And in the aftermath of the season, even at the reunion, she herself said that if she were a man she would have been celebrated (and cited another male player who played similarly and everyone loved him and thought he was quirky) where she got a labeled a pushy difficult woman. And she called Jeff Probst (host) out on his own sexism in how he questioned her game moves and he has said that her storyline really made him question his own biases about women because he agreed with her. Angelina was an interesting player; she was constantly fighting to retain her own power over herself and her game but that preconceived notions about how she 'should' behave and act got her into trouble with her castmates and eventually was her downfall. But she never gave up and she never acted like she felt chastised, she was always unapologetically herself.

So I think it is interesting that Mike had Angelina talking to Daphne in this opener. But hey, maybe they are just close from their season!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Didn’t Daphne run into Cameron’s arms after discovering the body in Ep1?

I need to rewatch but I don’t think Cam dies.

My money’s on Grandpa, Greg, and a gay guy to die.

No - if you re-watch that scene, there's a guy to the right of the two women Daphne talks to - he's dark haired, wearing sunglasses, and has a short beard, in swim trunks. When she starts running out of the water - look in the background. You see him get up from his chair. I am almost 100% sure it's him that catches her on the beach. Then the camera kind of moves through the crowd. I didn't see any of the known cast in the crowd.

Interesting in that, so far, that is the only time she is alone. She is always with her husband or Harper.

Yes. That whole scene is interesting. She's there with her huge bag and her aperol, vacant chair next to her as if she's expecting her husband and then she makes this weird little speech, which is out introduction into her character. It's all a little "off," IMO.

I think she's the mastermind and poisons him and/or lets him drown. Almost every scene she has, she references killing - even this one she says that they will have to drag you out of here. It would be quite the Survivor twist if seemingly the least intelligent member of the group ends up "winning it all".

I like this theory!

DP, but this also fits with what I said earlier about her earlier comments to him, that she would never emasculate him like they said Harper did to Ethan -- but that she totally could if she wanted to.

There would be symmetry with season 1 as well as season 1 opens with the 'killer' talking to tourists arriving at the airport for their vacation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did the spa worker put a curse on Tanya in the first season? Tanya wonders about that in Season 2 and I can't remember.

Tanya wonders about this because she's racist

Yep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did the spa worker put a curse on Tanya in the first season? Tanya wonders about that in Season 2 and I can't remember.

Tanya wonders about this because she's racist

No that’s not what’s going on.
She ditched the spa worker project for a love interest. Like some chicks do of any age or race.

She brings up a curse from the Italian fortune teller / card reader scene, not season one people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mike White famously loves the show Survivor and even appeared in a season of the show. I think there are a ton of Survivor parallels in White Lotus and since I have nothing better to do this morning (just kidding, I have a long to do list but zero desire to tackle it) here are some of the parallels I see. Obviously the show is not strictly a game and no one is getting "voted out", but White is clearly playing with some of the tropes of the game in my eyes:

Alliances

Alliances are central to Survivor game play and are the source of the vast majority of interpersonal drama. Some alliances can form early on in the game and last to the bitter end, essentially securing the final two or the winner's win. But most alliances shift throughout the game as people are eliminated and other players have to hop to new alliances with better numbers to protect themselves.

The most obvious alliances parallel involves Portia, who arrives with Tanya but is immediately banished by Greg (early alliances are often based purely on who you like and don't like, personality-wise). She then gloms onto Albie and his dad and grandad. Nursing a flirtation from an interested party to form an alliance is a Survivor classic, and one way that younger women on the show who might otherwise be considered liabilities early on for lacking physical strength, secure safety during the early part of the game.

There are other alliances going on as well. The foursome start out with to obvious alliances -- the Spillers and the Babcocks. But then Daphne clearly tries to recruit Harper to her alliance (is it her individual alliance or one she shares with Cameron? it's unclear) when they go to Noto. Noticeably, no one seems to be recruiting Ethan. If Harper turns against him, he has no protection.

Tanya has been recruited by the gays to their alliance but it feels nefarious. Mia and Lucia were allied with Dom but they crossed to many lines with Albie and the grandad, so he's told them he's through with them.

Blindsides

This is when a player flips on an alliance at the last minute, voting against someone they'd previously promised to help protect. Blindsides are a survivor classic. You can see blindside parallels in the way Portia ditches Albie for Jack, effectively switching her alliance from the Di Grassos to the gays. But Tanya's discovery at the end of the last episode indicate a blindside is in the works with the gays as well, though it's not clear exactly what it will be. I suspect, as others do, that the gays are secretly allied with Greg, putting both Tanya and Portia in danger.

Harper's discovery of the condom wrapper felt like a blindside, since Ethan had in fact been lying to her all day about what happened with Cameron. On the other hand, I think the ultimate alliances in the foursome are very much up in the air and Harper might be looking to convince both Cameron and Daphne that she's joining their alliance against Ethan, only to blindside them in the end in an act of loyalty to her husband.

Whoever dies is likely getting the ultimate blindside and I do think White is trying to make this as surprising for the audience as possible, so I think the biggest blindside is yet to come and likely to be a shock.

Swing Votes

A Survivor classic, this is what happens when you have two equally sized alliances and one or two people who are unaligned. The wooing of the swing votes is a Survivor mainstay. I think the most obvious swing votes are Mia and Lucia, who have a tight alliance with each other but very weak alliances with others (Dom, Albie, Cam, Valentina) often based on temporary goodwill or a financial transaction. They are playing games and swing votes often get caught up in their temporary power only to get quickly punished for this as soon as the number shift and they are no longer needed. I fear this is what will happen with Lucia for sure. Mia seems a little more cautious and thus maybe safer but we'll see.

Portia is also a potential swing vote and could help or hurt Tanya with the dangerous situation in Palermo.

Tribal Council

Tribal Council, where someone is voted out or, in the last episode, where the winner is selected, happens at the end of every episode of survivor. This last episode had MAJOR tribal council vibes at the end, with both the dinner hour at the hotel and the opera in Palermo. Right down to classic Survivor imagery of fire and close ups of statues, plus the White Lotus scores always gives Survivor with the wordless chanting -- if you are much of a Survivor watcher, it's hard to avoid the obvious references.

Anyway, tribal council is where a lot of $hit goes down but because it's very public, with everyone sitting in a circle, it's hard to scheme. There are a LOT of meaningful glances. Kind of like the dinner with the foursome. Sometimes players will even have hurried, whispered conversations before the vote to try and change a plan last minute based on what has been said at Council. When Mia went off with Cameron in full view of Albie, it had that feeling of Lucia trying to swing a vote last minute using Cameron as a tool. The Di Grassos have also had a lot of Tribal Council-esque glances through the show during dinner, as gramps and Dom track the location of Mia/Lucia, and gramps also tracks Dom's tracking of Mia/Lucia.

The foursome always feels Tribal Council-y to me at their dinners, with revelations and accusations thrown out, never more so than in this last episode. Cameron grabbing Harper's knee under the table reminded me of the way players sometimes slip other people immunity idols at council, though I don't think Cameron wants to give Harper immunity, if you know what I mean (lol).

Often, after tribal council, the show will follow the tribe back to camp where they will go to sleep. Only sometimes some people don't go to sleep and there is activity -- idol hiding, alliance conversations, etc. Kind of like how Jack went to hide his idol after leaving Portia, wink-wink (I know I'm being silly, I enjoy the innuendo!).

That's all I've got for now. I saw some Survivor references in the first season but they are out of control in this season and I think it's clear White was heavily inspired by his fandom and likely also his experience on the show. It's also clearly a passionate interest of his -- I think his interest in class and hierarchies dovetails nicely with his interest in Survivor. It's also what I like about that show too -- it has a way of exposing people in the most fascinating ways, both their worst impulses (betrayal, exploitation, lying and stealing) and their surprising vulnerabilities and resiliency.

One thing about Survivor is that nasty people never win. They can't, everyone hates them. The winners are always schemers and pretty much no one ever wins without telling at least a few little lies. But the winners usually have strong social skills and are genuinely likable, or have qualities that help others respect them. That's how they get the votes at the end even after participating in voting off a lot of the jury. This aspect of Survivor makes me think it's unlike Mia or Lucia wind up dead (schemers, sure, but too plucky and likable to be hated) and also that Tanya probably makes it out alive. Cameron though... he's the sort who would make it deep in the game and then be gloriously ousted by the exact people he's been cruelest to. My money is on Daphne, Harper, or Ethan, or potentially all three, killing Cameron in an extremely satisfying way. The slaying of the villains has long been my favorite Survivor feature -- nasty people never win.

Fellow survivor fan here. I do think Mike has been heavily influenced by his time on survivor and this is interesting but it feels like a reach in a lot of places. One thing I'd actively push back on though is the bolded. This is kind of true on survivor (not universally though, see the OG Richard Hatch even), but it is not true in The White Lotus. To the contrary at the end of season one everyone basically went back to their lives. Steve Zahn's family left basically unchanged (except maybe the son, who saw an opportunity for transformation and took it). The person most severely effected was the guy who tried to steal from them for his girlfriend. The friend who orchestrated that goes unpunished. The guy who dies is not the worst person on the show but he was hardly the villain. The murderer gets off. Tanya destroys that massage workers dreams after leading her on for a week and then disappears with a man and her money. The White Lotus says that you can be horrible and rarely face consequences, and it is strongest when it is showing the mundane cruelty of people. The little things that happen everyday that show who a person is, and slowly corrupt them further. How one bad choice leads to another. How you can't contain the damage of being awful, but how other people are awful too.

This is not a show about the good guy winning.

PP here. I agree that in Season 1, this wasn't White's m.o. at all -- it was very clear that he was making a point about how wealth helps people escape accountability. I also don't think Season One had as many Survivor vibes generally, other than the tropical locale and some of the music.

However, I think this season, which has a lot more intrigue and aligning and re-aligning of characters, is much more heavily influenced by White's Survivor fandom. It really hit me during this week's episode because there was a musical interlude that was literally just close ups of fire of Survivor-esque chanting music in the background. That's straight out of the Survivor playbook.

Regarding the whole "nasty people never win", it really is true. Hatch was grating at times, but never nasty. People were bothered by the fact that he walked around naked, but he genuinely just liked doing it -- he wasn't mean to people. And he was the first person to create the whole concept of an alliance on Survivor. There was talk in the first season about whether this was even allowable. So he gets this reputation for being devious, but only because he essentially invented a core feature of Survivor gameplay that has been present in every season of Survivor since. That's not nasty, it's smart. Smart people with strong strategy are often rewarded on Survivor.

No, when I say nasty, I'm talking about players like Russel Hantz. Nasty, mean-spirited players who are frequently put down other players and constantly betray alliance-mates for a short term advantage. These people never, ever win survivor because it pisses people off, and then no one will vote for them to win in the end. If you are going to screw people over on Survivor, you have to do it in a way that makes people still like, or at least respect you. You can't just openly be a jerk.

Applying this to this season, I think it's likely that Cameron gets a comeuppance in the way that Shane from last season didn't. Unlike in last season, Cameron's nemesis is not someone from a "lower" social class. The people who pose a threat to Cameron are all also wealthy, all seem to have some dirt on him, and all feel betrayed or harmed by him. I do think Cameron is one of the bodies in the water at the end, and I expect that Harper, Daphne, and/or Ethan will play a role in putting him there.

I also think Greg is plotting against Tanya, likely working with the gays in doing so, and that he's going to be unsuccessful because, again, he's too nasty and unlikeable to come out on top. And again, this won't be some plucky hotel worker succeeding against him. It will be Tanya, who is rich af.

This season isn't about how the rich and privileged escape accountability when they harm people with less privilege. This season is about the Catholic concepts of sin and punishment, which lend themselves well to themes and plots form Survivor.