Are AP-type classes racist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher in a school system that does have significant racial inequities. My observation is that the problem isn't that "AP-type classes (are) raciest" as much as it is that the pathway to get to AP classes begins with TAG selection in elementary grades, and the TAG identification process is without a doubt racist and inequitable.

This.
We keep identifying problems yet refusing to address root causes. You can’t fix inequity in HS, college, or beyond by putting on band aids.
Dumbing down AP classes helps no one. Neither does taking them away. You want more kids to be ready for AP? Fix early education.

You need to start prior to that. Students from low-income homes (white and black) enter school below grade level. It is a constant race to catch up to expectations. Very bright kids can and do catch up with no extra intervention. Many others have the deck stacked against them. Poor attendance, lots of mobility, etc. These reasons and others prevent them from catching up. If you want these kids to reach their full potential, intervention needs to start in the home from the very beginning. I teach in a Title 1 school and we have a 3-year-old program. Students are assessed three times per year for receptive vocabulary. Native English speakers of all races typically enter the program with a receptive vocabulary of an 18-month-old. These students are typically developing.

So you're saying that the school's 3 year old program still doesn't help with getting these kids to grade level? (not being snarky, I'm really curious). I always thought that high quality daycare, like the kind white and Asian families choose, would be the answer.

Then if the answer isn't even daycare, it's parents and the family. It seems like there's two worlds- one where kids are fed healthy food and read to for 30 min a day and the other where they aren't. How can this be fixed? It's not a poverty thing either, I know plenty of poor families that care very much about their kids education. My best friend makes 35k at a non profit and her husband is a SAHD (both PhDs), they live in a 1 bedroom with their 3 kids and are happy as clams. Smartest kids you've ever seen.

The target is always moving. So a few mornings a week in school isn’t going to close that gap that already exists. There is a program in RI that teaches parents in their homes how to talk to their children. It is aimed at low income families. It starts when the children are babies. There is a lot of research on this word gap. Students hearing a story at school a few days per week isn’t enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher in a school system that does have significant racial inequities. My observation is that the problem isn't that "AP-type classes (are) raciest" as much as it is that the pathway to get to AP classes begins with TAG selection in elementary grades, and the TAG identification process is without a doubt racist and inequitable.

This.
We keep identifying problems yet refusing to address root causes. You can’t fix inequity in HS, college, or beyond by putting on band aids.
Dumbing down AP classes helps no one. Neither does taking them away. You want more kids to be ready for AP? Fix early education.

You need to start prior to that. Students from low-income homes (white and black) enter school below grade level. It is a constant race to catch up to expectations. Very bright kids can and do catch up with no extra intervention. Many others have the deck stacked against them. Poor attendance, lots of mobility, etc. These reasons and others prevent them from catching up. If you want these kids to reach their full potential, intervention needs to start in the home from the very beginning. I teach in a Title 1 school and we have a 3-year-old program. Students are assessed three times per year for receptive vocabulary. Native English speakers of all races typically enter the program with a receptive vocabulary of an 18-month-old. These students are typically developing.

So you're saying that the school's 3 year old program still doesn't help with getting these kids to grade level? (not being snarky, I'm really curious). I always thought that high quality daycare, like the kind white and Asian families choose, would be the answer.

Then if the answer isn't even daycare, it's parents and the family. It seems like there's two worlds- one where kids are fed healthy food and read to for 30 min a day and the other where they aren't. How can this be fixed? It's not a poverty thing either, I know plenty of poor families that care very much about their kids education. My best friend makes 35k at a non profit and her husband is a SAHD (both PhDs), they live in a 1 bedroom with their 3 kids and are happy as clams. Smartest kids you've ever seen.

The target is always moving. So a few mornings a week in school isn’t going to close that gap that already exists. There is a program in RI that teaches parents in their homes how to talk to their children. It is aimed at low income families. It starts when the children are babies. There is a lot of research on this word gap. Students hearing a story at school a few days per week isn’t enough.

I'd like to see how the come up with a control group of educated patents who don't speak to their children at home - of is this the kind on data that isn't replicable? The one constant seems to be that the children of parents who are involved and educated do well. Having parents read a script to babies, while hilarious in concept, probably won't make even a tiny bit of difference

[Anonymous]

There is a very interesting book on this topic called Unequal Childhoods. Check it out. It documents the home lives on children living in different homes and their outcomes. I’m the teacher who posted before and it is fascinating. Also great books on the topic are The Long Shadow and Our Kids.

[Anonymous]

So the takeaway for all of this is that some black kids are basically doomed because unless we can take them away at birth then there's no amount of intervention that's gonna be enough to close the gap caused by poor parenting?

That sounds like an awful problem. And it sounds like the solution to that awful problem is not to dumb down education for everyone to fit the lowest performing students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway for all of this is that some black kids are basically doomed because unless we can take them away at birth then there's no amount of intervention that's gonna be enough to close the gap caused by poor parenting?

That sounds like an awful problem. And it sounds like the solution to that awful problem is not to dumb down education for everyone to fit the lowest performing students.

Agree.

I never understood why our government doesn’t intervene in at-risk households. Each at-risk family should get a mentor. Free parenting classes. Voucher for preschools. Mommy & me classes. Specialists who can help parents & baby thrive at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway for all of this is that some black kids are basically doomed because unless we can take them away at birth then there's no amount of intervention that's gonna be enough to close the gap caused by poor parenting?

That sounds like an awful problem. And it sounds like the solution to that awful problem is not to dumb down education for everyone to fit the lowest performing students.

Agree.

I never understood why our government doesn’t intervene in at-risk households. Each at-risk family should get a mentor. Free parenting classes. Voucher for preschools. Mommy & me classes. Specialists who can help parents & baby thrive at home.

New poster. Ideally at risk families shouldn’t even have kids. But since kids come with benefits, it becomes a career of sorts for certain households.
The cure? Provide only in kind help to at risk kids. Including free daycare where they will hopefully encounter someone smarter than their teenage parents from multi generational poverty background.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher in a school system that does have significant racial inequities. My observation is that the problem isn't that "AP-type classes (are) raciest" as much as it is that the pathway to get to AP classes begins with TAG selection in elementary grades, and the TAG identification process is without a doubt racist and inequitable.

This.
We keep identifying problems yet refusing to address root causes. You can’t fix inequity in HS, college, or beyond by putting on band aids.
Dumbing down AP classes helps no one. Neither does taking them away. You want more kids to be ready for AP? Fix early education.

My (white) kids went to Title I schools that were majority-minority for elementary and middle school and I agree. Two of the problems we saw -- lower-income kids move around a lot. They may not go to the same school for more than a year or two in a row, so they spend a lot of time getting re-assessed, and the principals can't assign them to classes with teachers who will be a good fit, and they don't form relationships with counselors or others who look out for them....all the things that middle-class kids from stable households experience.

Also, the teachers in Title 1 schools don't last long either, if they have the chance to move to a different school many of them move on. Our elementary school went through four principals over the 10 years my kids attended. So again, even for the kids who do stay in the neighborhood long-term, they don't have the consistency that lets people really learn their strengths and weaknesses and provide the supports and programs they need to help them.

It's always stop-and-start, and all those breaks add up. Combined with less support at home for many of them, particularly the ones whose parents have limited education, and it means they are significantly behind middle class kids by the time they get to high school just because they haven't had a consistent, intensive focus on their development from all of the adults in their lives that wealthier kids in more affluent schools experience.

My kid was at a similar elementary and I pulled him out the soonest I could.
Can’t imagine staying past elementary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher in a school system that does have significant racial inequities. My observation is that the problem isn't that "AP-type classes (are) raciest" as much as it is that the pathway to get to AP classes begins with TAG selection in elementary grades, and the TAG identification process is without a doubt racist and inequitable.

This.
We keep identifying problems yet refusing to address root causes. You can’t fix inequity in HS, college, or beyond by putting on band aids.
Dumbing down AP classes helps no one. Neither does taking them away. You want more kids to be ready for AP? Fix early education.

My (white) kids went to Title I schools that were majority-minority for elementary and middle school and I agree. Two of the problems we saw -- lower-income kids move around a lot. They may not go to the same school for more than a year or two in a row, so they spend a lot of time getting re-assessed, and the principals can't assign them to classes with teachers who will be a good fit, and they don't form relationships with counselors or others who look out for them....all the things that middle-class kids from stable households experience.

Also, the teachers in Title 1 schools don't last long either, if they have the chance to move to a different school many of them move on. Our elementary school went through four principals over the 10 years my kids attended. So again, even for the kids who do stay in the neighborhood long-term, they don't have the consistency that lets people really learn their strengths and weaknesses and provide the supports and programs they need to help them.

It's always stop-and-start, and all those breaks add up. Combined with less support at home for many of them, particularly the ones whose parents have limited education, and it means they are significantly behind middle class kids by the time they get to high school just because they haven't had a consistent, intensive focus on their development from all of the adults in their lives that wealthier kids in more affluent schools experience.

My kid was at a similar elementary and I pulled him out the soonest I could.
Can’t imagine staying past elementary.

That is really just “white flight.” And it’s racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway for all of this is that some black kids are basically doomed because unless we can take them away at birth then there's no amount of intervention that's gonna be enough to close the gap caused by poor parenting?

That sounds like an awful problem. And it sounds like the solution to that awful problem is not to dumb down education for everyone to fit the lowest performing students.

I think the takeaway should be that school grades are the problem. Why should a kid be expected to master certain topics within a year? Especially if we know that doesn't work for lower income students.

Grades - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ect should be eliminated. Classes can be made using criteria that each individual school wants (esol, standardized test scores, random, ect) And the focus should be on mastering skills/concepts before moving on to the next level. So for example, Larla takes two years to master 1st grade math but 1 year to master language arts. By the time Larla gets to high school she will have a much better foundation and her educational outcome will improve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher in a school system that does have significant racial inequities. My observation is that the problem isn't that "AP-type classes (are) raciest" as much as it is that the pathway to get to AP classes begins with TAG selection in elementary grades, and the TAG identification process is without a doubt racist and inequitable.

This.
We keep identifying problems yet refusing to address root causes. You can’t fix inequity in HS, college, or beyond by putting on band aids.
Dumbing down AP classes helps no one. Neither does taking them away. You want more kids to be ready for AP? Fix early education.

My (white) kids went to Title I schools that were majority-minority for elementary and middle school and I agree. Two of the problems we saw -- lower-income kids move around a lot. They may not go to the same school for more than a year or two in a row, so they spend a lot of time getting re-assessed, and the principals can't assign them to classes with teachers who will be a good fit, and they don't form relationships with counselors or others who look out for them....all the things that middle-class kids from stable households experience.

Also, the teachers in Title 1 schools don't last long either, if they have the chance to move to a different school many of them move on. Our elementary school went through four principals over the 10 years my kids attended. So again, even for the kids who do stay in the neighborhood long-term, they don't have the consistency that lets people really learn their strengths and weaknesses and provide the supports and programs they need to help them.

It's always stop-and-start, and all those breaks add up. Combined with less support at home for many of them, particularly the ones whose parents have limited education, and it means they are significantly behind middle class kids by the time they get to high school just because they haven't had a consistent, intensive focus on their development from all of the adults in their lives that wealthier kids in more affluent schools experience.

My kid was at a similar elementary and I pulled him out the soonest I could.
Can’t imagine staying past elementary.

That is really just “white flight.” And it’s racist.

If White families leave, it’s white flight. If they move in/stay, it’s gentrification or you get a podcast called Nice White Parents about how you’re imposing white culture on non White kids. Can’t win.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway for all of this is that some black kids are basically doomed because unless we can take them away at birth then there's no amount of intervention that's gonna be enough to close the gap caused by poor parenting?

That sounds like an awful problem. And it sounds like the solution to that awful problem is not to dumb down education for everyone to fit the lowest performing students.

I think the takeaway should be that school grades are the problem. Why should a kid be expected to master certain topics within a year? Especially if we know that doesn't work for lower income students.

Grades - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ect should be eliminated. Classes can be made using criteria that each individual school wants (esol, standardized test scores, random, ect) And the focus should be on mastering skills/concepts before moving on to the next level. So for example, Larla takes two years to master 1st grade math but 1 year to master language arts. By the time Larla gets to high school she will have a much better foundation and her educational outcome will improve.

larla will be a 23 year old freshman, but she'll have the foundation mastered

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher in a school system that does have significant racial inequities. My observation is that the problem isn't that "AP-type classes (are) raciest" as much as it is that the pathway to get to AP classes begins with TAG selection in elementary grades, and the TAG identification process is without a doubt racist and inequitable.

This.
We keep identifying problems yet refusing to address root causes. You can’t fix inequity in HS, college, or beyond by putting on band aids.
Dumbing down AP classes helps no one. Neither does taking them away. You want more kids to be ready for AP? Fix early education.

My (white) kids went to Title I schools that were majority-minority for elementary and middle school and I agree. Two of the problems we saw -- lower-income kids move around a lot. They may not go to the same school for more than a year or two in a row, so they spend a lot of time getting re-assessed, and the principals can't assign them to classes with teachers who will be a good fit, and they don't form relationships with counselors or others who look out for them....all the things that middle-class kids from stable households experience.

Also, the teachers in Title 1 schools don't last long either, if they have the chance to move to a different school many of them move on. Our elementary school went through four principals over the 10 years my kids attended. So again, even for the kids who do stay in the neighborhood long-term, they don't have the consistency that lets people really learn their strengths and weaknesses and provide the supports and programs they need to help them.

It's always stop-and-start, and all those breaks add up. Combined with less support at home for many of them, particularly the ones whose parents have limited education, and it means they are significantly behind middle class kids by the time they get to high school just because they haven't had a consistent, intensive focus on their development from all of the adults in their lives that wealthier kids in more affluent schools experience.

My kid was at a similar elementary and I pulled him out the soonest I could.
Can’t imagine staying past elementary.

That is really just “white flight.” And it’s racist.

If White families leave, it’s white flight. If they move in/stay, it’s gentrification or you get a podcast called Nice White Parents about how you’re imposing white culture on non White kids. Can’t win.

Oh please.

Whites are not the victims; of any kind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway for all of this is that some black kids are basically doomed because unless we can take them away at birth then there's no amount of intervention that's gonna be enough to close the gap caused by poor parenting?

That sounds like an awful problem. And it sounds like the solution to that awful problem is not to dumb down education for everyone to fit the lowest performing students.

I think the takeaway should be that school grades are the problem. Why should a kid be expected to master certain topics within a year? Especially if we know that doesn't work for lower income students.

Grades - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ect should be eliminated. Classes can be made using criteria that each individual school wants (esol, standardized test scores, random, ect) And the focus should be on mastering skills/concepts before moving on to the next level. So for example, Larla takes two years to master 1st grade math but 1 year to master language arts. By the time Larla gets to high school she will have a much better foundation and her educational outcome will improve.

larla will be a 23 year old freshman, but she'll have the foundation mastered

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway for all of this is that some black kids are basically doomed because unless we can take them away at birth then there's no amount of intervention that's gonna be enough to close the gap caused by poor parenting?

That sounds like an awful problem. And it sounds like the solution to that awful problem is not to dumb down education for everyone to fit the lowest performing students.

Agree.

I never understood why our government doesn’t intervene in at-risk households. Each at-risk family should get a mentor. Free parenting classes. Voucher for preschools. Mommy & me classes. Specialists who can help parents & baby thrive at home.

And tell them what? There are people who think teaching any standard of English is racist. You want to add in culture too? I also can’t wait for the government approved standard of how to raise your child. They do so well at everything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway for all of this is that some black kids are basically doomed because unless we can take them away at birth then there's no amount of intervention that's gonna be enough to close the gap caused by poor parenting?

That sounds like an awful problem. And it sounds like the solution to that awful problem is not to dumb down education for everyone to fit the lowest performing students.

I think the takeaway should be that school grades are the problem. Why should a kid be expected to master certain topics within a year? Especially if we know that doesn't work for lower income students.

Grades - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ect should be eliminated. Classes can be made using criteria that each individual school wants (esol, standardized test scores, random, ect) And the focus should be on mastering skills/concepts before moving on to the next level. So for example, Larla takes two years to master 1st grade math but 1 year to master language arts. By the time Larla gets to high school she will have a much better foundation and her educational outcome will improve.

larla will be a 23 year old freshman, but she'll have the foundation mastered

Either that or Larla will have dropped out when she was 18 in the ninth grade. Mastery based grading makes sense in theory but it’s akin to holding kids back a grade and that leads to higher rates of high school drop out. And also having taught a class with 15 year old girls and 22 year old boys, it is not a good mix.