Are AP-type classes racist?

[Anonymous]

The mere existence of this thread shows why China will be our future overlords.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP. Phasing them out would seem to be the logical extension of a march toward equity and a reduced emphasis on tests.

Agree - these types of classes should be phased out entirely.

Where I live only 1% of students in the district are black (California). We have much higher percent of Asian and Indian students who make up a good portion of AP classes. These tend to be the most diverse classes.

I guess school districts can do whatever they want. But this is a global society and we do have some responsibility to produce highly educated citizens who can compete & advance our medical, health, technology, financial and infrastructure systems. We don’t do this by reducing expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The mere existence of this thread shows why China will be our future overlords.

This was my thought too.

[Anonymous]

The mere existence of this thread shows why China will be our future overlords.

+1000

Meanwhile on the Japanese parents send their kids to cram school. The answer is getting more people to qualify and take these courses, not to go the Boston route and ensure equal misery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have mixed ancestry, but identify as AA. I’m also a mid-career public school teacher and have taught in a diverse variety of schools. I taught AP for three years and two of my own children have taken AP courses. Here’s my thoughts:
1) who gets selected to take AP and who gets support during the course can be shaped by systemic racism. My district had a huge problem with excluding students of color from these courses when selection was based on teacher recommendation. Once students were allowed to chose, the enrollment increased a lot temporarily. When they dropped a bit, surveys found that students of color withdrew because they felt unwelcome by the teachers and white peers. Not because the work was difficult or boring. Because they were asked if they were in the wrong classroom or not called upon unless the question was about race. When my older DD took AP, she was not invited to the elective support course that most of the white students were enrolled in. When she asked about it, the teacher told her that it was for students who needed to get a 5 to apply for highly competitive colleges and she could get into a state school or HBCU just fine with a 3. Of course, we had a meeting about that and the teacher said she meant no harm, it was just based on her experience with students like my daughter. She failed to clarify what she meant other than DD’s skin color. DD transfered to the other AP teacher and ended up earning a 5.
2) The tests themselves do not seem racially biased or class-biased in the way that the SAT can be.

Not op but thank you for sharing that. I think it’s important people know about the subtle discouragement that can and does take place. Do you have thoughts about whether APs should phased out?

No, I think advanced classes like AP, IB, Project Lead the Way, or stand alone courses should be offered under outside review and with frequent feedback from students. With oversight, the barriers I noted can be dismantled. MCPS has come a long way in their attitudes toward students with special needs taking advanced courses. White friends have noted that their now adult children with IEPs or 504 were treated similarly despite excelling academically in regular courses. Today, it would be almost unthinkable for 2E students to be blocked from advanced studies or treated dismissively once enrolled.

It is thinkable.

In FCPS, there are no team taught honors or AP classes and not taught in contained classes either.

Kids that have a lot of trouble functioning in large classes or that need assistance from a resource or sp.ed. teacher, even if they are incredibly bright or gifted, are not given any other option except regular Ed small or team taught class or suck it up and flounder in a regular AP or Honors class.

Where do you want the funding for extra SPED teachers for team taught/self contained advanced courses to come from? As the sole teacher of advanced math classes in my middle school, I would have loved to have a team teacher in class with me to support the kids who needed it (everyone could have benefited!) but we already had class sizes of 30+, SPED teachers had caseloads approaching ridiculous numbers, and we struggled to fill the open sped positions we had. To add another position for the 2 kids with executive functioning issues who wanted honors algebra in 8th grade...? Never going to happen in public school. The strategy was to put them in a study skills class to support multiple kids across different classes in one room.

I would LOVE more support for SPED in advanced classes, but it is $$$ and not federally mandated. The schools don't even have to offer the courses for gen ed students, they just do because they have a critical mass. The years we had enough SPED kids (6+) sign up for a class to justify a team teacher, I got one, but the years that only 1 or 2 kids registered, there wasn't funding for it.

Not all kids with an IEP need a team taught class to thrive in an advanced course. I know because I have taught such kids in advanced courses without a coteacher or para. Sometimes they just need their accommodations and a teacher who knows how to teach bright kids more than just one way. One student needed an audio version of the AP textbook. Others have needed extended time for writing.

Of course, but that's not what the PP was upset about.

A kid who simply needs extended time would have a 504 as that is not a curriculum adjustment and does not require any IEP. It doesn't require staffing. PP wants there to be self contained or team taught AP and honors classes, and that's just not going to happen without MAJOR funding increases dedicated to that specific issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A recent study in Boston concluded they are. I have never seen statistics like this.


From the article: district analysis of the program found that more than 70 percent of students enrolled in the program were white and Asian, even though nearly 80 percent of all Boston public school students are Hispanic and Black. There's been a lot of inequities that have been brought to the light in the pandemic that we have to address," Cassellius told GBH News. "There's a lot of work we have to do in the district to be antiracist and have policies where all of our students have a fair shot at an equitable and excellent education

https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-classes

This is the link: https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-

"Antiracist" is certainly quite a word. It sounds like a good thing to be. It was coined by Ibram X. Kendi, who is quoted in his book "How to be an Antiracist" as saying: "The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination." Woke anti-racists also demand that any difference in achievement, performance, or wealth between two groups be explained as a form of racial discrimination. The cherry of the cupcake is that anyone who argues with the antiracists is, by definition, a racist. It's been shocking to me that Liberal white America has fallen for this anti-liberal claptrap so quickly. I suppose it's some combination of well-meaning charity with a heaping amount of guilt-assuagement.

Back to AP classes; the same argument, by the way, can be made for elite college admissions and test-in high schools like TJ (until last year.) The argument goes like this; if a desirable thing does not perfectly represent the demographics of society, it must be racist. The solutions these days seem to be to either abolish the institutions, or remove the barriers to entry (tests, performance.) Or, in a more radical version, actually bar white / asian kids from attending. This has been happening a lot in the education sector. Where will this end up?

Perhaps the most powerful human drive is the parental nurturing drive. Parents want the best education for their children for one simple reason; so that they will have good lives. Parents will eventually wise up to what is happening, and dollars will start to flee organizations who lower standards. What we will be left with will be worse for everyone; for the high achievers who are suddenly being shamed for being smart and driven; for poor kids of all races who now can't even find a good public option; and for the country, which will be even further divided than it is now. By lowering standards and ripping out selective public educational institutions, we'll simply create even more of a "have" (private) and "have not" (public) system. And what about the kids who now enjoy "equal access" to test-free high schools? They will hit a dead-end when they hit the workforce. Companies don't care about AP tests or the name of a high school; they care about talent and skill. Lowering the bar to make something "antiracist" is perhaps the most racist thing that can be done; we'll have another generation of kids who can't find work.

You are forgetting that workplaces must employ affirmative action to make sure employees are representative of the population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not improve the regular courses in high school? APs are a money maker, pure and simple. Top private schools have/are doing away with AP courses.

Do you know why they are doing away with AP classes? I am unclear on that.

Their classes are AP level or above. That's what they claim.

+1

Private schools can offer those advanced courses without calling them APs. Public schools use APs as a way to offer rigorous courses because you have to follow College Board curriculum. Otherwise you would have an ‘honors for all’ situation which is really not honors at all in public school.

Also APs get a lot of kids out of pre-req or core courses in college. Some can enter school with enough credits to graduate in three years which is an amazing money saver.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A recent study in Boston concluded they are. I have never seen statistics like this.


From the article: district analysis of the program found that more than 70 percent of students enrolled in the program were white and Asian, even though nearly 80 percent of all Boston public school students are Hispanic and Black. There's been a lot of inequities that have been brought to the light in the pandemic that we have to address," Cassellius told GBH News. "There's a lot of work we have to do in the district to be antiracist and have policies where all of our students have a fair shot at an equitable and excellent education

https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-classes

This is the link: https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-

"Antiracist" is certainly quite a word. It sounds like a good thing to be. It was coined by Ibram X. Kendi, who is quoted in his book "How to be an Antiracist" as saying: "The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination." Woke anti-racists also demand that any difference in achievement, performance, or wealth between two groups be explained as a form of racial discrimination. The cherry of the cupcake is that anyone who argues with the antiracists is, by definition, a racist. It's been shocking to me that Liberal white America has fallen for this anti-liberal claptrap so quickly. I suppose it's some combination of well-meaning charity with a heaping amount of guilt-assuagement.

Back to AP classes; the same argument, by the way, can be made for elite college admissions and test-in high schools like TJ (until last year.) The argument goes like this; if a desirable thing does not perfectly represent the demographics of society, it must be racist. The solutions these days seem to be to either abolish the institutions, or remove the barriers to entry (tests, performance.) Or, in a more radical version, actually bar white / asian kids from attending. This has been happening a lot in the education sector. Where will this end up?

Perhaps the most powerful human drive is the parental nurturing drive. Parents want the best education for their children for one simple reason; so that they will have good lives. Parents will eventually wise up to what is happening, and dollars will start to flee organizations who lower standards. What we will be left with will be worse for everyone; for the high achievers who are suddenly being shamed for being smart and driven; for poor kids of all races who now can't even find a good public option; and for the country, which will be even further divided than it is now. By lowering standards and ripping out selective public educational institutions, we'll simply create even more of a "have" (private) and "have not" (public) system. And what about the kids who now enjoy "equal access" to test-free high schools? They will hit a dead-end when they hit the workforce. Companies don't care about AP tests or the name of a high school; they care about talent and skill. Lowering the bar to make something "antiracist" is perhaps the most racist thing that can be done; we'll have another generation of kids who can't find work.

You are forgetting that workplaces must employ affirmative action to make sure employees are representative of the population.

That ... is not how affirmative action works. It’s not a quota.

[Anonymous]

I guess it can all be solved my importing scientists and other professionals from all over the world, and putting everyone who isn’t in demand professionally on UBI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, in your experience what do you think is the solution for the first problem? Sounds like it helps to let students choose whether they want to join advanced classes?

Yes, all students should be able to choose.

I think it is really important though to avoid creating support classes just for students of color. I think support classes should either be mandatory for all students in a particular advanced course or they should be an elective open to all students. I’ve seen some schools really misuse AVID and other programs. Some mean well, but they end up giving the impression that AVID students aren’t as capable and meanwhile, there’s a similar support class that only has white and Asian students enrolled.

I'm white but came from a low income family with no education. When I went to high school, I could choose to enroll in AP classes. I didn't have to get permission or have a certain GPA. And I chose a few here and there. Not an overloaded schedule like many kids do today.

They were by far the most enriching, thought-provoking classes I took in school. I remain deeply grateful for being able to take those classes.

Among my fellow AP classmates, I got the lowest grades. I did not take any of the exams because I didn't feel I had mastered the material. By the end of high school, however, my grades were better. I went from Bs and Cs to As and Bs. I finally "got" how to study and how to write. If I hadn't taken those courses, I don't think I would have been as confident entering college.

I can't speak to what it's like as a child of color. They may or may not have my income challenges. But they also stick out. I did not. I could hide in my whiteness (same as everyone else) and my quietness. But damn, please give them the opportunity. Let them choose. They know themselves better than any of us do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, they aren’t racist. Underrepresentation doesn’t make them racist, rather it is a symptom of deeper problems with equity in education.

This. The district's policy on access to the AP classes may be racist. That does not mean the classes themselves are, obviously. This is why DCPS has no barrier to taking any AP class you want or to taking the prereqs, plus a bunch of different way to get yourself on the path for math if you were behind (as those courses are obviously and importantly sequential).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The mere existence of this thread shows why China will be our future overlords.

+1000

Meanwhile on the Japanese parents send their kids to cram school. The answer is getting more people to qualify and take these courses, not to go the Boston route and ensure equal misery.

This. The US is already falling behind other countries.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/world-most-innovative-economies/

[Anonymous]

By all means, let’s keep excluding capable children of color from rigorous courses as long as we don’t fall behind China.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A recent study in Boston concluded they are. I have never seen statistics like this.


From the article: district analysis of the program found that more than 70 percent of students enrolled in the program were white and Asian, even though nearly 80 percent of all Boston public school students are Hispanic and Black. There's been a lot of inequities that have been brought to the light in the pandemic that we have to address," Cassellius told GBH News. "There's a lot of work we have to do in the district to be antiracist and have policies where all of our students have a fair shot at an equitable and excellent education

https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-classes

This is the link: https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-

"Antiracist" is certainly quite a word. It sounds like a good thing to be. It was coined by Ibram X. Kendi, who is quoted in his book "How to be an Antiracist" as saying: "The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination." Woke anti-racists also demand that any difference in achievement, performance, or wealth between two groups be explained as a form of racial discrimination. The cherry of the cupcake is that anyone who argues with the antiracists is, by definition, a racist. It's been shocking to me that Liberal white America has fallen for this anti-liberal claptrap so quickly. I suppose it's some combination of well-meaning charity with a heaping amount of guilt-assuagement.

Back to AP classes; the same argument, by the way, can be made for elite college admissions and test-in high schools like TJ (until last year.) The argument goes like this; if a desirable thing does not perfectly represent the demographics of society, it must be racist. The solutions these days seem to be to either abolish the institutions, or remove the barriers to entry (tests, performance.) Or, in a more radical version, actually bar white / asian kids from attending. This has been happening a lot in the education sector. Where will this end up?

Perhaps the most powerful human drive is the parental nurturing drive. Parents want the best education for their children for one simple reason; so that they will have good lives. Parents will eventually wise up to what is happening, and dollars will start to flee organizations who lower standards. What we will be left with will be worse for everyone; for the high achievers who are suddenly being shamed for being smart and driven; for poor kids of all races who now can't even find a good public option; and for the country, which will be even further divided than it is now. By lowering standards and ripping out selective public educational institutions, we'll simply create even more of a "have" (private) and "have not" (public) system. And what about the kids who now enjoy "equal access" to test-free high schools? They will hit a dead-end when they hit the workforce. Companies don't care about AP tests or the name of a high school; they care about talent and skill. Lowering the bar to make something "antiracist" is perhaps the most racist thing that can be done; we'll have another generation of kids who can't find work.

You are forgetting that workplaces must employ affirmative action to make sure employees are representative of the population.

No they mustn't. High-performing companies are meritocracies. You can bet that Tesla and SpaceX don't use affirmative action approaches when hiring engineers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why not improve the regular courses in high school? APs are a money maker, pure and simple. Top private schools have/are doing away with AP courses.

and yet many of the students there still take the AP tests.