Are AP-type classes racist?

[Anonymous]

Why not improve the regular courses in high school? APs are a money maker, pure and simple. Top private schools have/are doing away with AP courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have mixed ancestry, but identify as AA. I’m also a mid-career public school teacher and have taught in a diverse variety of schools. I taught AP for three years and two of my own children have taken AP courses. Here’s my thoughts:
1) who gets selected to take AP and who gets support during the course can be shaped by systemic racism. My district had a huge problem with excluding students of color from these courses when selection was based on teacher recommendation. Once students were allowed to chose, the enrollment increased a lot temporarily. When they dropped a bit, surveys found that students of color withdrew because they felt unwelcome by the teachers and white peers. Not because the work was difficult or boring. Because they were asked if they were in the wrong classroom or not called upon unless the question was about race. When my older DD took AP, she was not invited to the elective support course that most of the white students were enrolled in. When she asked about it, the teacher told her that it was for students who needed to get a 5 to apply for highly competitive colleges and she could get into a state school or HBCU just fine with a 3. Of course, we had a meeting about that and the teacher said she meant no harm, it was just based on her experience with students like my daughter. She failed to clarify what she meant other than DD’s skin color. DD transfered to the other AP teacher and ended up earning a 5.
2) The tests themselves do not seem racially biased or class-biased in the way that the SAT can be.

Wow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP. Phasing them out would seem to be the logical extension of a march toward equity and a reduced emphasis on tests.

Agree - these types of classes should be phased out entirely.

So does that mean no more advanced classes?

If you want equity, you cannot allow white and Asian kids academic challenges.

Apparently.

Lower the bar until everyone succeeds!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have mixed ancestry, but identify as AA. I’m also a mid-career public school teacher and have taught in a diverse variety of schools. I taught AP for three years and two of my own children have taken AP courses. Here’s my thoughts:
1) who gets selected to take AP and who gets support during the course can be shaped by systemic racism. My district had a huge problem with excluding students of color from these courses when selection was based on teacher recommendation. Once students were allowed to chose, the enrollment increased a lot temporarily. When they dropped a bit, surveys found that students of color withdrew because they felt unwelcome by the teachers and white peers. Not because the work was difficult or boring. Because they were asked if they were in the wrong classroom or not called upon unless the question was about race. When my older DD took AP, she was not invited to the elective support course that most of the white students were enrolled in. When she asked about it, the teacher told her that it was for students who needed to get a 5 to apply for highly competitive colleges and she could get into a state school or HBCU just fine with a 3. Of course, we had a meeting about that and the teacher said she meant no harm, it was just based on her experience with students like my daughter. She failed to clarify what she meant other than DD’s skin color. DD transfered to the other AP teacher and ended up earning a 5.
2) The tests themselves do not seem racially biased or class-biased in the way that the SAT can be.

Not op but thank you for sharing that. I think it’s important people know about the subtle discouragement that can and does take place. Do you have thoughts about whether APs should phased out?

No, I think advanced classes like AP, IB, Project Lead the Way, or stand alone courses should be offered under outside review and with frequent feedback from students. With oversight, the barriers I noted can be dismantled. MCPS has come a long way in their attitudes toward students with special needs taking advanced courses. White friends have noted that their now adult children with IEPs or 504 were treated similarly despite excelling academically in regular courses. Today, it would be almost unthinkable for 2E students to be blocked from advanced studies or treated dismissively once enrolled.

It is thinkable.

In FCPS, there are no team taught honors or AP classes and not taught in contained classes either.

Kids that have a lot of trouble functioning in large classes or that need assistance from a resource or sp.ed. teacher, even if they are incredibly bright or gifted, are not given any other option except regular Ed small or team taught class or suck it up and flounder in a regular AP or Honors class.

[Anonymous]

DP. We pulled my very bright kid with severe dyslexia out of the public schools because it was clear DC would not be welcome in advanced classes. DC is thriving in private where they view dyslexia as just a learning difference, not an intelligence signifier. In public 5th grade, he had a teacher refuse to read an essay because it had spelling errors, even though he has an IEP specifically calling spelling out.

I don't doubt that Black and Latino kids receive messages discouraging them from AP classes.

[Anonymous]

If all students can choose then we are going to hear the only the white and Asian kids get >3 or even stay in the course. There needs to be better supports in place in ES and MS for students who can excel academically. Otherwise we are moving the 'all kids get a trophy mentality' into academics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If all students can choose then we are going to hear the only the white and Asian kids get >3 or even stay in the course. There needs to be better supports in place in ES and MS for students who can excel academically. Otherwise we are moving the 'all kids get a trophy mentality' into academics.

It’s already there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have mixed ancestry, but identify as AA. I’m also a mid-career public school teacher and have taught in a diverse variety of schools. I taught AP for three years and two of my own children have taken AP courses. Here’s my thoughts:
1) who gets selected to take AP and who gets support during the course can be shaped by systemic racism. My district had a huge problem with excluding students of color from these courses when selection was based on teacher recommendation. Once students were allowed to chose, the enrollment increased a lot temporarily. When they dropped a bit, surveys found that students of color withdrew because they felt unwelcome by the teachers and white peers. Not because the work was difficult or boring. Because they were asked if they were in the wrong classroom or not called upon unless the question was about race. When my older DD took AP, she was not invited to the elective support course that most of the white students were enrolled in. When she asked about it, the teacher told her that it was for students who needed to get a 5 to apply for highly competitive colleges and she could get into a state school or HBCU just fine with a 3. Of course, we had a meeting about that and the teacher said she meant no harm, it was just based on her experience with students like my daughter. She failed to clarify what she meant other than DD’s skin color. DD transfered to the other AP teacher and ended up earning a 5.
2) The tests themselves do not seem racially biased or class-biased in the way that the SAT can be.

Not op but thank you for sharing that. I think it’s important people know about the subtle discouragement that can and does take place. Do you have thoughts about whether APs should phased out?

No, I think advanced classes like AP, IB, Project Lead the Way, or stand alone courses should be offered under outside review and with frequent feedback from students. With oversight, the barriers I noted can be dismantled. MCPS has come a long way in their attitudes toward students with special needs taking advanced courses. White friends have noted that their now adult children with IEPs or 504 were treated similarly despite excelling academically in regular courses. Today, it would be almost unthinkable for 2E students to be blocked from advanced studies or treated dismissively once enrolled.

It is thinkable.

In FCPS, there are no team taught honors or AP classes and not taught in contained classes either.

Kids that have a lot of trouble functioning in large classes or that need assistance from a resource or sp.ed. teacher, even if they are incredibly bright or gifted, are not given any other option except regular Ed small or team taught class or suck it up and flounder in a regular AP or Honors class.

Where do you want the funding for extra SPED teachers for team taught/self contained advanced courses to come from? As the sole teacher of advanced math classes in my middle school, I would have loved to have a team teacher in class with me to support the kids who needed it (everyone could have benefited!) but we already had class sizes of 30+, SPED teachers had caseloads approaching ridiculous numbers, and we struggled to fill the open sped positions we had. To add another position for the 2 kids with executive functioning issues who wanted honors algebra in 8th grade...? Never going to happen in public school. The strategy was to put them in a study skills class to support multiple kids across different classes in one room.

I would LOVE more support for SPED in advanced classes, but it is $$$ and not federally mandated. The schools don't even have to offer the courses for gen ed students, they just do because they have a critical mass. The years we had enough SPED kids (6+) sign up for a class to justify a team teacher, I got one, but the years that only 1 or 2 kids registered, there wasn't funding for it.

[Anonymous]

I agree that it’s an issue in terms of the education gap but I don’t really know what the best solution is. My spouse teaches advanced courses and doesn’t like it when they put kids in the class who aren’t ready for it. They slow things down for the whole class which is also not great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why not improve the regular courses in high school? APs are a money maker, pure and simple. Top private schools have/are doing away with AP courses.

Do you know why they are doing away with AP classes? I am unclear on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it’s an issue in terms of the education gap but I don’t really know what the best solution is. My spouse teaches advanced courses and doesn’t like it when they put kids in the class who aren’t ready for it. They slow things down for the whole class which is also not great.

Me again. One idea I maybe have is to have some kind of impartial equity officer at the school to review grades and flag kids who could move to an advanced class. I think as a general matter white / asian students might have more parental encouragement to take advanced classes. But if we had someone else who could flag and meet with the kids to discuss and help, maybe that would help? Idk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A recent study in Boston concluded they are. I have never seen statistics like this.


From the article: district analysis of the program found that more than 70 percent of students enrolled in the program were white and Asian, even though nearly 80 percent of all Boston public school students are Hispanic and Black. There's been a lot of inequities that have been brought to the light in the pandemic that we have to address," Cassellius told GBH News. "There's a lot of work we have to do in the district to be antiracist and have policies where all of our students have a fair shot at an equitable and excellent education

https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-classes

This is the link: https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-

"Antiracist" is certainly quite a word. It sounds like a good thing to be. It was coined by Ibram X. Kendi, who is quoted in his book "How to be an Antiracist" as saying: "The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination." Woke anti-racists also demand that any difference in achievement, performance, or wealth between two groups be explained as a form of racial discrimination. The cherry of the cupcake is that anyone who argues with the antiracists is, by definition, a racist. It's been shocking to me that Liberal white America has fallen for this anti-liberal claptrap so quickly. I suppose it's some combination of well-meaning charity with a heaping amount of guilt-assuagement.

Back to AP classes; the same argument, by the way, can be made for elite college admissions and test-in high schools like TJ (until last year.) The argument goes like this; if a desirable thing does not perfectly represent the demographics of society, it must be racist. The solutions these days seem to be to either abolish the institutions, or remove the barriers to entry (tests, performance.) Or, in a more radical version, actually bar white / asian kids from attending. This has been happening a lot in the education sector. Where will this end up?

Perhaps the most powerful human drive is the parental nurturing drive. Parents want the best education for their children for one simple reason; so that they will have good lives. Parents will eventually wise up to what is happening, and dollars will start to flee organizations who lower standards. What we will be left with will be worse for everyone; for the high achievers who are suddenly being shamed for being smart and driven; for poor kids of all races who now can't even find a good public option; and for the country, which will be even further divided than it is now. By lowering standards and ripping out selective public educational institutions, we'll simply create even more of a "have" (private) and "have not" (public) system. And what about the kids who now enjoy "equal access" to test-free high schools? They will hit a dead-end when they hit the workforce. Companies don't care about AP tests or the name of a high school; they care about talent and skill. Lowering the bar to make something "antiracist" is perhaps the most racist thing that can be done; we'll have another generation of kids who can't find work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have mixed ancestry, but identify as AA. I’m also a mid-career public school teacher and have taught in a diverse variety of schools. I taught AP for three years and two of my own children have taken AP courses. Here’s my thoughts:
1) who gets selected to take AP and who gets support during the course can be shaped by systemic racism. My district had a huge problem with excluding students of color from these courses when selection was based on teacher recommendation. Once students were allowed to chose, the enrollment increased a lot temporarily. When they dropped a bit, surveys found that students of color withdrew because they felt unwelcome by the teachers and white peers. Not because the work was difficult or boring. Because they were asked if they were in the wrong classroom or not called upon unless the question was about race. When my older DD took AP, she was not invited to the elective support course that most of the white students were enrolled in. When she asked about it, the teacher told her that it was for students who needed to get a 5 to apply for highly competitive colleges and she could get into a state school or HBCU just fine with a 3. Of course, we had a meeting about that and the teacher said she meant no harm, it was just based on her experience with students like my daughter. She failed to clarify what she meant other than DD’s skin color. DD transfered to the other AP teacher and ended up earning a 5.
2) The tests themselves do not seem racially biased or class-biased in the way that the SAT can be.

Not op but thank you for sharing that. I think it’s important people know about the subtle discouragement that can and does take place. Do you have thoughts about whether APs should phased out?

No, I think advanced classes like AP, IB, Project Lead the Way, or stand alone courses should be offered under outside review and with frequent feedback from students. With oversight, the barriers I noted can be dismantled. MCPS has come a long way in their attitudes toward students with special needs taking advanced courses. White friends have noted that their now adult children with IEPs or 504 were treated similarly despite excelling academically in regular courses. Today, it would be almost unthinkable for 2E students to be blocked from advanced studies or treated dismissively once enrolled.

It is thinkable.

In FCPS, there are no team taught honors or AP classes and not taught in contained classes either.

Kids that have a lot of trouble functioning in large classes or that need assistance from a resource or sp.ed. teacher, even if they are incredibly bright or gifted, are not given any other option except regular Ed small or team taught class or suck it up and flounder in a regular AP or Honors class.

Where do you want the funding for extra SPED teachers for team taught/self contained advanced courses to come from? As the sole teacher of advanced math classes in my middle school, I would have loved to have a team teacher in class with me to support the kids who needed it (everyone could have benefited!) but we already had class sizes of 30+, SPED teachers had caseloads approaching ridiculous numbers, and we struggled to fill the open sped positions we had. To add another position for the 2 kids with executive functioning issues who wanted honors algebra in 8th grade...? Never going to happen in public school. The strategy was to put them in a study skills class to support multiple kids across different classes in one room.

I would LOVE more support for SPED in advanced classes, but it is $$$ and not federally mandated. The schools don't even have to offer the courses for gen ed students, they just do because they have a critical mass. The years we had enough SPED kids (6+) sign up for a class to justify a team teacher, I got one, but the years that only 1 or 2 kids registered, there wasn't funding for it.

Not all kids with an IEP need a team taught class to thrive in an advanced course. I know because I have taught such kids in advanced courses without a coteacher or para. Sometimes they just need their accommodations and a teacher who knows how to teach bright kids more than just one way. One student needed an audio version of the AP textbook. Others have needed extended time for writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it’s an issue in terms of the education gap but I don’t really know what the best solution is. My spouse teaches advanced courses and doesn’t like it when they put kids in the class who aren’t ready for it. They slow things down for the whole class which is also not great.

Me again. One idea I maybe have is to have some kind of impartial equity officer at the school to review grades and flag kids who could move to an advanced class. I think as a general matter white / asian students might have more parental encouragement to take advanced classes. But if we had someone else who could flag and meet with the kids to discuss and help, maybe that would help? Idk.

Don’t assume this is true for middle class Black and Brown kids. We have a few high schools were the Black kids are the children of very well-educated African immigrants and they are reporting the exact same discouraging actions and messages by teachers and counselors that our lower income ADOS Black kids experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not improve the regular courses in high school? APs are a money maker, pure and simple. Top private schools have/are doing away with AP courses.

Do you know why they are doing away with AP classes? I am unclear on that.

Their classes are AP level or above. That's what they claim.