Admissions to change at Thomas Jefferson High, and others

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great. I pray that they actually do SOMETHING about the gender imbalance as well.

+1

I cannot believe that there is not more outrage about this. I know race is the hot topic right now, but the lack of access for girls into TJ has been a problem for YEARS. Only 40% of the students are female, but almost 50% of the applicants are female.

And fixing the gender disparity problem is something that the school board can easily fix. Its low hanging fruit school board members! AND it does not have the same legal hurdles of implementing race-based admissions standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the lottery idea. And the reserved slots by geography. It is a public school, it should serve all students.

Why not enter all students who complete algebra I in middle school with a B average or better into the lottery? No special test, no extracurriculars or essays.

Exactly.

A B average in middle school in Algebra is a low bar for TJ. TJ rejects hundreds of students every year who have all As, including in Geometry.

I guess you could do that if your main goal was increasing the number of Blacks and Hispanics. Make no mistake, though, New TJ wouldn't be much more than an Academy program, it wouldn't continue to offer the same number of higher level courses, and it likely would be considered inferior to many of the neighborhood schools.

This is not even close to true. And in reality, an effort of this type to increase representation would change the identity of maybe 10-15% of each incoming class - and the current bottom 10-15% of each TJ class would do better in college admissions at their base school (and many of them drop out anyway during their freshmen year!). So you'd essentially be trading out that group for a group of students who would significantly enrich the academic environment through diversity of experience, and would probably have a major delta in their eventual outcomes over their base high school - a delta that is much more significant than what you find coming from the wealthier schools.

I'm not prepared to accept this based on your predictions, which have no basis in empirical data.

Changing TJ to a lottery system where students with qualifications well below the current TJ student body logically can be expected to significantly alter both the applicant pool to TJ and the profile of the admitted students.

At some point, one has to ask what purpose TJ would then serve. It seems the answer is that New TJ would exist primarily to demonstrate that more students besides Asians can get through a STEM-oriented curriculum. That might be a valuable demonstration project, if it then served as a basis to extend that understanding to other schools, but TJ has not functioned as an incubator for teaching ideas that are then more widely deployed. It has always been insular and inward-looking. Replacing one bubble with a different one may not be worth the trouble. Given the profound discomfort that has existed around TJ for decades, FCPS might well be served at this point by converting it back into a neighborhood school.

It is a mistake to assume that the admissions process as currently constructed perfectly identifies the most qualified students. It doesn't.

Empirically, the bottom 10-15% of TJ's students over the past 20 years or so generally attend schools like GMU, JMU, VCU, and some of the SEC or Big Ten schools that are willing to offer them some money to come. It is impossible for me to believe that these students, most of whom have much higher aspirations in terms of ranking, wouldn't do much better at their base school - empirical data on this is really impossible to get to, but these students are hampered at TJ by a relatively lower GPA.

I think any lottery system would probably be partial in nature and would require some minimum level of achievement in order for students to qualify. The serious proposals that are out there are not considering just opening TJ to anyone and everyone who wants to apply for whatever reason.

The whole "bottom group at TJ would do better at their base school for college" thing is something that is pretty universally understood if you have been around TJ for any length of time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great. I pray that they actually do SOMETHING about the gender imbalance as well.

+1

I cannot believe that there is not more outrage about this. I know race is the hot topic right now, but the lack of access for girls into TJ has been a problem for YEARS. Only 40% of the students are female, but almost 50% of the applicants are female.

And fixing the gender disparity problem is something that the school board can easily fix. Its low hanging fruit school board members! AND it does not have the same legal hurdles of implementing race-based admissions standards.

This is very true and very important. The school desperately needs more girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

Racist and envious

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

I think the students of these parents would laugh pretty loudly at the idea that "go to bed on time" is an equivalent priority to "spend money and time on extra math".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

Racist and envious

No, it's not. Asian parents don't have the market cornered on good parenting, or on interest in TJ. THAT's a racist view.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

Racist and envious

That PP doesn't seem to understand that in some cultures, education and high stakes exams are viewed as a way to a prosperous future and parents view it as their duty to provide every possible advantage to their kids. Likewise kids are taught that they owe it to their family to succeed so that they can in turn support their parents in old age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

Racist and envious

That PP doesn't seem to understand that in some cultures, education and high stakes exams are viewed as a way to a prosperous future and parents view it as their duty to provide every possible advantage to their kids. Likewise kids are taught that they owe it to their family to succeed so that they can in turn support their parents in old age.

good for them, there is no reason for a public school system to cater to that expectation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

Racist and envious

That PP doesn't seem to understand that in some cultures, education and high stakes exams are viewed as a way to a prosperous future and parents view it as their duty to provide every possible advantage to their kids. Likewise kids are taught that they owe it to their family to succeed so that they can in turn support their parents in old age.

good for them, there is no reason for a public school system to cater to that expectation

There's nothing wrong with high standards. Thats not an east Asian value. Other cultures have the same values.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The only thing that TJ would realistically need to adjust is the number of base-level (i.e. Geometry or TJ Math 1) sections that they offer to incoming freshmen - which is not really a big deal. Indeed, if you actually talk to math teachers at TJ, many of them are frustrated with the level of acceleration of the students that come in because their math foundations are weaker. They have learned how to do the advanced math, but not really how to understand it on a conceptual level. TJ would offer the same classes and the same rigor - you'd just have a very slightly higher volume of students at lower math levels that they already offer.

That would defeat the purpose of TJ, though. One of the important aspects of TJ is that there is a critical mass of students who are capable of taking post-AP classes. If you remove that critical mass, then those classes could no longer be offered, and the TJ course offerings would end up looking like every other FCPS high school. They possibly should get rid of the TJ 2nd round and instead do a racially proportional lottery for all TJ semifinalists or finalists.

Part of the problem is that there's such a difference between course rigor at various middle schools. If they strengthened the middle school programs at schools other than Longfellow, Carson, and Rocky Run, then there would be a more diverse group of kids ready to take advantage of TJ's offerings. From what people have said about Longfellow academics, my kids' school (Lainer) is pretty pathetic in comparison.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

Racist and envious

That PP doesn't seem to understand that in some cultures, education and high stakes exams are viewed as a way to a prosperous future and parents view it as their duty to provide every possible advantage to their kids. Likewise kids are taught that they owe it to their family to succeed so that they can in turn support their parents in old age.

good for them, there is no reason for a public school system to cater to that expectation

There's nothing wrong with high standards. Thats not an east Asian value. Other cultures have the same values.

When those standard result in a negligible number of black students in TJ and slightly more hispanic students, the district needs find out how to fix the problem. You can call it merit or culture, but it's still segregation if the best school in the county has almost no African Americans

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As an AAP teacher, I see too many kids who are admitted to the program and whose math or reading skills are below grade level. It's true, and it needs to be fixed. These kids struggle to keep up. It's not fair to them - it's not meeting their needs.

If a student tests in the range they need to get into AAP and yet had skills far below grade level, wouldn't that be strong evidence that their needs weren't met in gen ed? Aren't bright kids who were served well in gen ed the point of AAP, so wouldn't developing your ability to differentiate be your #1 priority for your own professional development?

I'm a special ed teacher of kids with ID. If gen ed teachers can and do develop the skills to differentiate for my students, AAP teachers should be able to differentiate for the kids you describe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

In America, yes. Because it disadvantages kids who don’t have “good parenting”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

Racist and envious

That PP doesn't seem to understand that in some cultures, education and high stakes exams are viewed as a way to a prosperous future and parents view it as their duty to provide every possible advantage to their kids. Likewise kids are taught that they owe it to their family to succeed so that they can in turn support their parents in old age.

good for them, there is no reason for a public school system to cater to that expectation

There's nothing wrong with high standards. Thats not an east Asian value. Other cultures have the same values.

Is that how you rationalize your racism? “High standards”?

If FCPS can’t prevent the opportunity hoarding then we need to shut it down.