International families

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Then that’s something to take into consideration when you move to another country and marry a citizen of that country, and choose to have children with that person in that country. If you want your children to know “your culture” then you need to marry someone of “your culture” and live in “your country.” When you choose to marry someone of anothe

Most Americans who marry a foreigner are generally interested in their culture and do not ask them to give up their culture as a condition of marriage. I know several men who have married foreign women and they have all been excited to travel in her home country, more than half got married there. All of them were happy their kids would be exposed to another language from birth. They bragged that their children would be dual citizens and would easily be able to travel anywhere.

I imagine OPs husband was probably like the men I know. It would be a huge bait and switch to decide that you don’t want your wife and kids spending too much time in her home country. It would be a huge betrayal and breach of trust. I can understand why OP is freaking out!

Yes, that terrible, abusive monster! How dare he want to spend time with his children!

Would you feel the same way if the mom wanted to stop seeing the dad’s American family because she wanted more one on one time with her children? Most parents feel like the time goes quickly - you wouldn’t blame the mom for not wanting to share the kids either... Right?

He doesn't want to stop seeing her family. He just doesn't want to see them ALL the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are two types on people on this thread. The people that think that kids should go to other country for maximum 2 weeks because dad/mom will miss them too much and the other group that believes that time in another country is very important and parents should allo for that as much as possible. Nobody is saying that DH should have no saying in the matter and nobody is saying that kids should never leave the country without parents.
I think this division derives from how much parents value the time abroad. All parents want what’s best for the kids, but not all agree on what is best for them.
My home is very international. DH is Fron Argentina, I am italian, kids were born in DC. At home we speak three languages (4 if you count the nanny). Kids are fluent in 3 languages, etc. We value all that comes with growing up in different places immensely because we have had this amazing opportunity ourselves. I am afraid that the people that don’t understand the importance of living in different places (especially as children) have never themselves have the opportunity to do it. I have many American friends that understand its importance so it’s not a matter of being international or not. When you live for a long period of time (1,2,3 weeks is unfortunately not that much) in a different country you gain so much in self awareness, understanding of the world, understanding of your family and values that it’s a pity to deny to anyone. It’s NOT just about the language. Sure it’s nice to speak many languages, but this is not it. Living and interacting with people from different places in the world makes you question your beliefs and values and your brains becomes bigger and more elastic. Simply put, you become smarter.
If you think that those extra 6-7 weekends with dad (or mom, or both) in the summer are that important that is worth giving up on these life changing experiences, then I feel bad for your kids. If you have the opportunity to send your kids to live abroad, do it. They will come back richer than they were before and much richer than they would have been staying at home for those extra 7 weekS.
I am a much better, smarter, self aware person because I moved to the US.

Perhaps your kids will decide that your way of life, your values, your dynamics are the best and he only ones for them, but they will also realize that not all people believe and live the way you do. I could write about this forever...

OP I would try to insist and explain what his “selfishness” is preventing them from experience. They would be giving up on a lot... and the ones that lose in this situation are your kids

We also speak three languages at home and are from different countries. We value international experience and travel a lot. I disagree with you entirely.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Immigrating when you're an adult to another country is totally different than going back with one parent to a country where they grew up. Two points are salient here: 1) the kids are very young. When you're young, your world is a bubble and that bubble is yourself. It's normal and natural for kids to be self-centered and to see whatever happens as somehow related to them. Hence any long-simmering marital resentment over this could be very detrimental to the development of the kids. They'll feel subconsciously as if they were the cause of their fathers' unhappiness. That doesn't set up a healthy and positive relationship to the mother's country of origin, or to either parent. This is first and foremost a problem in their marriage, and they have to sort it out. It doesn't matter what you think or what works for your family. It's irrelevant to their relationship and life. 2) Everything is new to children that age. Going to a park. Exploring a neighborhood. Books. New friends. Plenty of children around the world live a very happy life without international travel. Most kids spend at least until they are preteens figuring out what it means to have a relationship with another individual, let alone another culture. I love to have my children travel and learn different languages and experience different cultures, especially the ones in which they have roots. But I'm not under the impression that it means the same thing to them now as it might when they are in their 20s or 30s. And I would never put my marriage into a bad place over this.

I remember well going back to my parents' home country when I was a young child. It is important to know that the world is larger than what you know. As a child, though, my experience was immediate and mired in the present of specific cousins or rooms or foods or environments. We didn't go back every year, either, more like every 3-4 for financial reasons. I really think it's exaggerating the importance of this to say you must go back every year for several months to expand your mind. No way.

For number 1) I totally agree with you. Both parents should agree on what’s best and the marriage and relationship should absoloutely be a priority always. My suggestion was for OP to try and convince DH and perhaps help him understand because perhaps he does not. I totally disagree on number 2. Early exposure is very important. Why would people travel with toddlers or preschool kids if there is no benefit to it? They will most likely forget it all. These experiences, however, will open their brains and improve their understanding. Of course I don’t expect my 5 year old to understand or be aware of societal differences, but I think she will be more curious, aware and generalky smarter because she sees how other people live. My parents have small TVs, they buy groceries everyday in small super markets, everyone knows them and know my kids. Keep da their age are more independent and are given more freedom, parents discipline lkids ne differently, they handle conversations in different ways, etc. If you think that kids don’t see it and don’t assimilate this, you are wrong... they do.

I am not saying that unless you spend 3 months every year in a different country you are doomed to be less smart and closed minded.... not all. All I am saying is that those are very valuable experiences that kids won’t get by traveling to another place once every 3 -4 years for a couple of weeks. I think OP needs to agree with her DH on vacation time, but she should try to make him understand the importance of it. If at the end DH still does not agree, I think OP needs to “give up” and find a solution that wOrksfor her husband. I would be very sad if I were OP and my kids had to give up on these experiences... and I would try to do my best to incorporate the culture in our daily life.

Most people travel with small kids internationally because it benefits the adults in the situation, i.e. the parents to return to a country of origin or to have a vacation, or the grandparents to get to spend time with their kids in a different setting. I am not too sure that it is really for the kids. For one thing, toddlers and preschoolers have a different circadian rhythm than us. The effects of jet lag/sleep deprivation on their systems are different and if not handled correctly can cause long term issues (the science of sleep and inflammatory diseases is in its infancy, but I predict we'll know a lot more about this in our lifetime).

As for difference, yes, if you're from a small and fairly homogeneous country, then leaving to get a different worldview is important. America is very different. You could get an extremely different sense of life, a different world almost, by seeing how other social classes and groups live in this country, or by living in different parts of the country. Italy is like the size of Arizona. Again, you're comparing apples and oranges.

I am under no illusion that even though my child speaks and writes as well as a native, and knows cultural reference points, that if we return to his father's country of origin once a year for several months, he will be "as X" as his cousins. That's a pretty superficial way of thinking about identity, to me. He might seem as if he fits in fine (and he does, he can make friends at the playground easily and nothing unnerves him) but he simply isn't subject to the conditions of everyday life that shape your identity and sense of self. Things like the school system, in which formal introduction to the culture and the norms take place. Or the economy and the subtle ways in which that affects your life goals and values. The whole institutional life of a country, the health system, the military, everything -- you're not positioned as a local would be and you never will be. You will always be an outsider and your identity remains that of the country in which you spend the majority of your formative time. You know one institution as a visitor, and that is the home and domestic life. Sure, it's mind-expanding, and great, but I think you are romanticizing the degree to which this affects your children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are two types on people on this thread. The people that think that kids should go to other country for maximum 2 weeks because dad/mom will miss them too much and the other group that believes that time in another country is very important and parents should allo for that as much as possible. Nobody is saying that DH should have no saying in the matter and nobody is saying that kids should never leave the country without parents.
I think this division derives from how much parents value the time abroad. All parents want what’s best for the kids, but not all agree on what is best for them.
My home is very international. DH is Fron Argentina, I am italian, kids were born in DC. At home we speak three languages (4 if you count the nanny). Kids are fluent in 3 languages, etc. We value all that comes with growing up in different places immensely because we have had this amazing opportunity ourselves. I am afraid that the people that don’t understand the importance of living in different places (especially as children) have never themselves have the opportunity to do it. I have many American friends that understand its importance so it’s not a matter of being international or not. When you live for a long period of time (1,2,3 weeks is unfortunately not that much) in a different country you gain so much in self awareness, understanding of the world, understanding of your family and values that it’s a pity to deny to anyone. It’s NOT just about the language. Sure it’s nice to speak many languages, but this is not it. Living and interacting with people from different places in the world makes you question your beliefs and values and your brains becomes bigger and more elastic. Simply put, you become smarter.
If you think that those extra 6-7 weekends with dad (or mom, or both) in the summer are that important that is worth giving up on these life changing experiences, then I feel bad for your kids. If you have the opportunity to send your kids to live abroad, do it. They will come back richer than they were before and much richer than they would have been staying at home for those extra 7 weekS.
I am a much better, smarter, self aware person because I moved to the US.

Perhaps your kids will decide that your way of life, your values, your dynamics are the best and he only ones for them, but they will also realize that not all people believe and live the way you do. I could write about this forever...

OP I would try to insist and explain what his “selfishness” is preventing them from experience. They would be giving up on a lot... and the ones that lose in this situation are your kids

We also speak three languages at home and are from different countries. We value international experience and travel a lot. I disagree with you entirely.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Immigrating when you're an adult to another country is totally different than going back with one parent to a country where they grew up. Two points are salient here: 1) the kids are very young. When you're young, your world is a bubble and that bubble is yourself. It's normal and natural for kids to be self-centered and to see whatever happens as somehow related to them. Hence any long-simmering marital resentment over this could be very detrimental to the development of the kids. They'll feel subconsciously as if they were the cause of their fathers' unhappiness. That doesn't set up a healthy and positive relationship to the mother's country of origin, or to either parent. This is first and foremost a problem in their marriage, and they have to sort it out. It doesn't matter what you think or what works for your family. It's irrelevant to their relationship and life. 2) Everything is new to children that age. Going to a park. Exploring a neighborhood. Books. New friends. Plenty of children around the world live a very happy life without international travel. Most kids spend at least until they are preteens figuring out what it means to have a relationship with another individual, let alone another culture. I love to have my children travel and learn different languages and experience different cultures, especially the ones in which they have roots. But I'm not under the impression that it means the same thing to them now as it might when they are in their 20s or 30s. And I would never put my marriage into a bad place over this.

I remember well going back to my parents' home country when I was a young child. It is important to know that the world is larger than what you know. As a child, though, my experience was immediate and mired in the present of specific cousins or rooms or foods or environments. We didn't go back every year, either, more like every 3-4 for financial reasons. I really think it's exaggerating the importance of this to say you must go back every year for several months to expand your mind. No way.

For number 1) I totally agree with you. Both parents should agree on what’s best and the marriage and relationship should absoloutely be a priority always. My suggestion was for OP to try and convince DH and perhaps help him understand because perhaps he does not. I totally disagree on number 2. Early exposure is very important. Why would people travel with toddlers or preschool kids if there is no benefit to it? They will most likely forget it all. These experiences, however, will open their brains and improve their understanding. Of course I don’t expect my 5 year old to understand or be aware of societal differences, but I think she will be more curious, aware and generalky smarter because she sees how other people live. My parents have small TVs, they buy groceries everyday in small super markets, everyone knows them and know my kids. Keep da their age are more independent and are given more freedom, parents discipline lkids ne differently, they handle conversations in different ways, etc. If you think that kids don’t see it and don’t assimilate this, you are wrong... they do.

I am not saying that unless you spend 3 months every year in a different country you are doomed to be less smart and closed minded.... not all. All I am saying is that those are very valuable experiences that kids won’t get by traveling to another place once every 3 -4 years for a couple of weeks. I think OP needs to agree with her DH on vacation time, but she should try to make him understand the importance of it. If at the end DH still does not agree, I think OP needs to “give up” and find a solution that wOrksfor her husband. I would be very sad if I were OP and my kids had to give up on these experiences... and I would try to do my best to incorporate the culture in our daily life.

Most people travel with small kids internationally because it benefits the adults in the situation, i.e. the parents to return to a country of origin or to have a vacation, or the grandparents to get to spend time with their kids in a different setting. I am not too sure that it is really for the kids. For one thing, toddlers and preschoolers have a different circadian rhythm than us. The effects of jet lag/sleep deprivation on their systems are different and if not handled correctly can cause long term issues (the science of sleep and inflammatory diseases is in its infancy, but I predict we'll know a lot more about this in our lifetime).

As for difference, yes, if you're from a small and fairly homogeneous country, then leaving to get a different worldview is important. America is very different. You could get an extremely different sense of life, a different world almost, by seeing how other social classes and groups live in this country, or by living in different parts of the country. Italy is like the size of Arizona. Again, you're comparing apples and oranges.

I am under no illusion that even though my child speaks and writes as well as a native, and knows cultural reference points, that if we return to his father's country of origin once a year for several months, he will be "as X" as his cousins. That's a pretty superficial way of thinking about identity, to me. He might seem as if he fits in fine (and he does, he can make friends at the playground easily and nothing unnerves him) but he simply isn't subject to the conditions of everyday life that shape your identity and sense of self. Things like the school system, in which formal introduction to the culture and the norms take place. Or the economy and the subtle ways in which that affects your life goals and values. The whole institutional life of a country, the health system, the military, everything -- you're not positioned as a local would be and you never will be. You will always be an outsider and your identity remains that of the country in which you spend the majority of your formative time. You know one institution as a visitor, and that is the home and domestic life. Sure, it's mind-expanding, and great, but I think you are romanticizing the degree to which this affects your children.

I agree with your first point in that the US (like Italy BTW) is a very diverse country. Italy was not a “country” until much after the US was and it is very different from place to place (obviously you know nothing about it and comparing Arizona di Italy is ridiculous... speaking of apples and oranges). But yes, kids can get a different way of living by spending several month/weeks in Wyoming on a farm for example. If DH’s family was from there, I would want the kids to spend considerable amount of time there. I wish my kids could spend more time in South America, but the family situation is such not not allow for that.
On your point of the jetlag, my kids have had to deal with it twice (usually 4 times) a year since they were born and it’s a non-issue.... unless maybe other kids have issues that mine don’t have.
You are right in that my kids will spend (possibly) most of their growing years in the US and they may never be truly Italian like their cousins. That does not mean that they will not be very close to that. I moved to the US when I was 19. I am not American (no citizenship), but I often feel more American than Italian since I spent almost the same amount of time in both Places. I guarantee you that I am so much richer and smarter than I would be had I stayed in Italy. Obviously my experience is different and I am sure my kids will be more Italian than I am American.

Again, I think that unless you had these experiences, you can’t understand it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are two types on people on this thread. The people that think that kids should go to other country for maximum 2 weeks because dad/mom will miss them too much and the other group that believes that time in another country is very important and parents should allo for that as much as possible. Nobody is saying that DH should have no saying in the matter and nobody is saying that kids should never leave the country without parents.
I think this division derives from how much parents value the time abroad. All parents want what’s best for the kids, but not all agree on what is best for them.
My home is very international. DH is Fron Argentina, I am italian, kids were born in DC. At home we speak three languages (4 if you count the nanny). Kids are fluent in 3 languages, etc. We value all that comes with growing up in different places immensely because we have had this amazing opportunity ourselves. I am afraid that the people that don’t understand the importance of living in different places (especially as children) have never themselves have the opportunity to do it. I have many American friends that understand its importance so it’s not a matter of being international or not. When you live for a long period of time (1,2,3 weeks is unfortunately not that much) in a different country you gain so much in self awareness, understanding of the world, understanding of your family and values that it’s a pity to deny to anyone. It’s NOT just about the language. Sure it’s nice to speak many languages, but this is not it. Living and interacting with people from different places in the world makes you question your beliefs and values and your brains becomes bigger and more elastic. Simply put, you become smarter.
If you think that those extra 6-7 weekends with dad (or mom, or both) in the summer are that important that is worth giving up on these life changing experiences, then I feel bad for your kids. If you have the opportunity to send your kids to live abroad, do it. They will come back richer than they were before and much richer than they would have been staying at home for those extra 7 weekS.
I am a much better, smarter, self aware person because I moved to the US.

Perhaps your kids will decide that your way of life, your values, your dynamics are the best and he only ones for them, but they will also realize that not all people believe and live the way you do. I could write about this forever...

OP I would try to insist and explain what his “selfishness” is preventing them from experience. They would be giving up on a lot... and the ones that lose in this situation are your kids

We also speak three languages at home and are from different countries. We value international experience and travel a lot. I disagree with you entirely.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Immigrating when you're an adult to another country is totally different than going back with one parent to a country where they grew up. Two points are salient here: 1) the kids are very young. When you're young, your world is a bubble and that bubble is yourself. It's normal and natural for kids to be self-centered and to see whatever happens as somehow related to them. Hence any long-simmering marital resentment over this could be very detrimental to the development of the kids. They'll feel subconsciously as if they were the cause of their fathers' unhappiness. That doesn't set up a healthy and positive relationship to the mother's country of origin, or to either parent. This is first and foremost a problem in their marriage, and they have to sort it out. It doesn't matter what you think or what works for your family. It's irrelevant to their relationship and life. 2) Everything is new to children that age. Going to a park. Exploring a neighborhood. Books. New friends. Plenty of children around the world live a very happy life without international travel. Most kids spend at least until they are preteens figuring out what it means to have a relationship with another individual, let alone another culture. I love to have my children travel and learn different languages and experience different cultures, especially the ones in which they have roots. But I'm not under the impression that it means the same thing to them now as it might when they are in their 20s or 30s. And I would never put my marriage into a bad place over this.

I remember well going back to my parents' home country when I was a young child. It is important to know that the world is larger than what you know. As a child, though, my experience was immediate and mired in the present of specific cousins or rooms or foods or environments. We didn't go back every year, either, more like every 3-4 for financial reasons. I really think it's exaggerating the importance of this to say you must go back every year for several months to expand your mind. No way.

For number 1) I totally agree with you. Both parents should agree on what’s best and the marriage and relationship should absoloutely be a priority always. My suggestion was for OP to try and convince DH and perhaps help him understand because perhaps he does not. I totally disagree on number 2. Early exposure is very important. Why would people travel with toddlers or preschool kids if there is no benefit to it? They will most likely forget it all. These experiences, however, will open their brains and improve their understanding. Of course I don’t expect my 5 year old to understand or be aware of societal differences, but I think she will be more curious, aware and generalky smarter because she sees how other people live. My parents have small TVs, they buy groceries everyday in small super markets, everyone knows them and know my kids. Keep da their age are more independent and are given more freedom, parents discipline lkids ne differently, they handle conversations in different ways, etc. If you think that kids don’t see it and don’t assimilate this, you are wrong... they do.

I am not saying that unless you spend 3 months every year in a different country you are doomed to be less smart and closed minded.... not all. All I am saying is that those are very valuable experiences that kids won’t get by traveling to another place once every 3 -4 years for a couple of weeks. I think OP needs to agree with her DH on vacation time, but she should try to make him understand the importance of it. If at the end DH still does not agree, I think OP needs to “give up” and find a solution that wOrksfor her husband. I would be very sad if I were OP and my kids had to give up on these experiences... and I would try to do my best to incorporate the culture in our daily life.

Most people travel with small kids internationally because it benefits the adults in the situation, i.e. the parents to return to a country of origin or to have a vacation, or the grandparents to get to spend time with their kids in a different setting. I am not too sure that it is really for the kids. For one thing, toddlers and preschoolers have a different circadian rhythm than us. The effects of jet lag/sleep deprivation on their systems are different and if not handled correctly can cause long term issues (the science of sleep and inflammatory diseases is in its infancy, but I predict we'll know a lot more about this in our lifetime).

As for difference, yes, if you're from a small and fairly homogeneous country, then leaving to get a different worldview is important. America is very different. You could get an extremely different sense of life, a different world almost, by seeing how other social classes and groups live in this country, or by living in different parts of the country. Italy is like the size of Arizona. Again, you're comparing apples and oranges.

I am under no illusion that even though my child speaks and writes as well as a native, and knows cultural reference points, that if we return to his father's country of origin once a year for several months, he will be "as X" as his cousins. That's a pretty superficial way of thinking about identity, to me. He might seem as if he fits in fine (and he does, he can make friends at the playground easily and nothing unnerves him) but he simply isn't subject to the conditions of everyday life that shape your identity and sense of self. Things like the school system, in which formal introduction to the culture and the norms take place. Or the economy and the subtle ways in which that affects your life goals and values. The whole institutional life of a country, the health system, the military, everything -- you're not positioned as a local would be and you never will be. You will always be an outsider and your identity remains that of the country in which you spend the majority of your formative time. You know one institution as a visitor, and that is the home and domestic life. Sure, it's mind-expanding, and great, but I think you are romanticizing the degree to which this affects your children.

I agree with your first point in that the US (like Italy BTW) is a very diverse country. Italy was not a “country” until much after the US was and it is very different from place to place (obviously you know nothing about it and comparing Arizona di Italy is ridiculous... speaking of apples and oranges). But yes, kids can get a different way of living by spending several month/weeks in Wyoming on a farm for example. If DH’s family was from there, I would want the kids to spend considerable amount of time there. I wish my kids could spend more time in South America, but the family situation is such not not allow for that.
On your point of the jetlag, my kids have had to deal with it twice (usually 4 times) a year since they were born and it’s a non-issue.... unless maybe other kids have issues that mine don’t have.
You are right in that my kids will spend (possibly) most of their growing years in the US and they may never be truly Italian like their cousins. That does not mean that they will not be very close to that. I moved to the US when I was 19. I am not American (no citizenship), but I often feel more American than Italian since I spent almost the same amount of time in both Places. I guarantee you that I am so much richer and smarter than I would be had I stayed in Italy. Obviously my experience is different and I am sure my kids will be more Italian than I am American.

Again, I think that unless you had these experiences, you can’t understand it

One more thing, my kids don’t “visit” there. They live 1/4 of their life there. Attend “school” and live that life. Also, nobody is American in our household (except for the kids) so the values and traditions they experience are only american at school and among friends. I truly think you are wrong about this

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
One more thing, my kids don’t “visit” there. They live 1/4 of their life there. Attend “school” and live that life. Also, nobody is American in our household (except for the kids) so the values and traditions they experience are only american at school and among friends. I truly think you are wrong about this

Look, I'm an immigrant married to an immigrant. No one in our household is American except the children. They speak both our languages with a native accent, watch TV in both languages, read, are enrolled in heritage schools, visit family, etc. I'm very sorry to have to tell you that the children in families like mine - and that includes dozens of families we know in a similar situation - are American through and through. Americans with roots in country X and country Y, but Americans nevertheless, that's the first and the most basic cornerstone of their identity. What they experience in school and among friends is their #1 reference, and if it hasn't become that, it will very shortly. You are laboring under the illusion that you can live in a country and remain free of it. I mean, you might. Your children, unless they live in diplomatic compound and are isolated from the natives, are not. I understand it might be painful for you to admit this, but it is actually true. My husband had to struggle to accept this so I know it isn't easy, but shielding your eyes from reality is never very attractive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One more thing, my kids don’t “visit” there. They live 1/4 of their life there. Attend “school” and live that life. Also, nobody is American in our household (except for the kids) so the values and traditions they experience are only american at school and among friends. I truly think you are wrong about this

Look, I'm an immigrant married to an immigrant. No one in our household is American except the children. They speak both our languages with a native accent, watch TV in both languages, read, are enrolled in heritage schools, visit family, etc. I'm very sorry to have to tell you that the children in families like mine - and that includes dozens of families we know in a similar situation - are American through and through. Americans with roots in country X and country Y, but Americans nevertheless, that's the first and the most basic cornerstone of their identity. What they experience in school and among friends is their #1 reference, and if it hasn't become that, it will very shortly. You are laboring under the illusion that you can live in a country and remain free of it. I mean, you might. Your children, unless they live in diplomatic compound and are isolated from the natives, are not. I understand it might be painful for you to admit this, but it is actually true. My husband had to struggle to accept this so I know it isn't easy, but shielding your eyes from reality is never very attractive.

+1,000.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One more thing, my kids don’t “visit” there. They live 1/4 of their life there. Attend “school” and live that life. Also, nobody is American in our household (except for the kids) so the values and traditions they experience are only american at school and among friends. I truly think you are wrong about this

Look, I'm an immigrant married to an immigrant. No one in our household is American except the children. They speak both our languages with a native accent, watch TV in both languages, read, are enrolled in heritage schools, visit family, etc. I'm very sorry to have to tell you that the children in families like mine - and that includes dozens of families we know in a similar situation - are American through and through. Americans with roots in country X and country Y, but Americans nevertheless, that's the first and the most basic cornerstone of their identity. What they experience in school and among friends is their #1 reference, and if it hasn't become that, it will very shortly. You are laboring under the illusion that you can live in a country and remain free of it. I mean, you might. Your children, unless they live in diplomatic compound and are isolated from the natives, are not. I understand it might be painful for you to admit this, but it is actually true. My husband had to struggle to accept this so I know it isn't easy, but shielding your eyes from reality is never very attractive.

You totally misunderstood my point. I don’t want them to not be American. They are! Maybe not so much now, but they will very soon. I just would never want for them to give up on the opportunity of being both. I want them to correct my English mistakes, I want them to embrace American traditions and values, but you are very mistaken to think that they can’t embrace more than one culture. It’s very limited way of thinking and living. I have several friends that grew up in one place, but had one parent from another country (usually mom has more influence) and they are just as American as they are italian. I am Sorry youcan’t see this, but I do

[Anonymous]

I think the issue here is NOT if kids spend summers abroad, the issue here if both parents agree or not. DH asking to limit the time is being reasonable, any involved father would want to spend some part of summer with his kids. What irked me most was OP'S line that "I am not planning on changing that", if you don't consider your DH an equal partner then you have bigger problems in your marriage than a trip abroad. I say this as someone who has family abroad and would never plan my kids trips without a joint agreement in place. OP's treatment of her DH is disrespectful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One more thing, my kids don’t “visit” there. They live 1/4 of their life there. Attend “school” and live that life. Also, nobody is American in our household (except for the kids) so the values and traditions they experience are only american at school and among friends. I truly think you are wrong about this

Look, I'm an immigrant married to an immigrant. No one in our household is American except the children. They speak both our languages with a native accent, watch TV in both languages, read, are enrolled in heritage schools, visit family, etc. I'm very sorry to have to tell you that the children in families like mine - and that includes dozens of families we know in a similar situation - are American through and through. Americans with roots in country X and country Y, but Americans nevertheless, that's the first and the most basic cornerstone of their identity. What they experience in school and among friends is their #1 reference, and if it hasn't become that, it will very shortly. You are laboring under the illusion that you can live in a country and remain free of it. I mean, you might. Your children, unless they live in diplomatic compound and are isolated from the natives, are not. I understand it might be painful for you to admit this, but it is actually true. My husband had to struggle to accept this so I know it isn't easy, but shielding your eyes from reality is never very attractive.

You totally misunderstood my point. I don’t want them to not be American. They are! Maybe not so much now, but they will very soon. I just would never want for them to give up on the opportunity of being both. I want them to correct my English mistakes, I want them to embrace American traditions and values, but you are very mistaken to think that they can’t embrace more than one culture. It’s very limited way of thinking and living. I have several friends that grew up in one place, but had one parent from another country (usually mom has more influence) and they are just as American as they are italian. I am Sorry youcan’t see this, but I do

You are deluding yourself if you believe that non-family natives of your culture will view your children as anything but American. Sorry, you made your choice about where to primarily raise your family. This is the consequence. Natives may appreciate that your children may “get” the culture of your native country -but your children are still viewed as outsiders, even if people aren’t saying it to your face.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the issue here is NOT if kids spend summers abroad, the issue here if both parents agree or not. DH asking to limit the time is being reasonable, any involved father would want to spend some part of summer with his kids. What irked me most was OP'S line that "I am not planning on changing that", if you don't consider your DH an equal partner then you have bigger problems in your marriage than a trip abroad. I say this as someone who has family abroad and would never plan my kids trips without a joint agreement in place. OP's treatment of her DH is disrespectful.

This. This is a marital issue, and also about expectations for equitable involvement in childten’s lives. The value of summers abroad, while a great opportunity, is a secondary issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One more thing, my kids don’t “visit” there. They live 1/4 of their life there. Attend “school” and live that life. Also, nobody is American in our household (except for the kids) so the values and traditions they experience are only american at school and among friends. I truly think you are wrong about this

Look, I'm an immigrant married to an immigrant. No one in our household is American except the children. They speak both our languages with a native accent, watch TV in both languages, read, are enrolled in heritage schools, visit family, etc. I'm very sorry to have to tell you that the children in families like mine - and that includes dozens of families we know in a similar situation - are American through and through. Americans with roots in country X and country Y, but Americans nevertheless, that's the first and the most basic cornerstone of their identity. What they experience in school and among friends is their #1 reference, and if it hasn't become that, it will very shortly. You are laboring under the illusion that you can live in a country and remain free of it. I mean, you might. Your children, unless they live in diplomatic compound and are isolated from the natives, are not. I understand it might be painful for you to admit this, but it is actually true. My husband had to struggle to accept this so I know it isn't easy, but shielding your eyes from reality is never very attractive.

You totally misunderstood my point. I don’t want them to not be American. They are! Maybe not so much now, but they will very soon. I just would never want for them to give up on the opportunity of being both. I want them to correct my English mistakes, I want them to embrace American traditions and values, but you are very mistaken to think that they can’t embrace more than one culture. It’s very limited way of thinking and living. I have several friends that grew up in one place, but had one parent from another country (usually mom has more influence) and they are just as American as they are italian. I am Sorry youcan’t see this, but I do

You are deluding yourself if you believe that non-family natives of your culture will view your children as anything but American. Sorry, you made your choice about where to primarily raise your family. This is the consequence. Natives may appreciate that your children may “get” the culture of your native country -but your children are still viewed as outsiders, even if people aren’t saying it to your face.

Ok... I rest my case... you have no clue

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One more thing, my kids don’t “visit” there. They live 1/4 of their life there. Attend “school” and live that life. Also, nobody is American in our household (except for the kids) so the values and traditions they experience are only american at school and among friends. I truly think you are wrong about this

Look, I'm an immigrant married to an immigrant. No one in our household is American except the children. They speak both our languages with a native accent, watch TV in both languages, read, are enrolled in heritage schools, visit family, etc. I'm very sorry to have to tell you that the children in families like mine - and that includes dozens of families we know in a similar situation - are American through and through. Americans with roots in country X and country Y, but Americans nevertheless, that's the first and the most basic cornerstone of their identity. What they experience in school and among friends is their #1 reference, and if it hasn't become that, it will very shortly. You are laboring under the illusion that you can live in a country and remain free of it. I mean, you might. Your children, unless they live in diplomatic compound and are isolated from the natives, are not. I understand it might be painful for you to admit this, but it is actually true. My husband had to struggle to accept this so I know it isn't easy, but shielding your eyes from reality is never very attractive.

You totally misunderstood my point. I don’t want them to not be American. They are! Maybe not so much now, but they will very soon. I just would never want for them to give up on the opportunity of being both. I want them to correct my English mistakes, I want them to embrace American traditions and values, but you are very mistaken to think that they can’t embrace more than one culture. It’s very limited way of thinking and living. I have several friends that grew up in one place, but had one parent from another country (usually mom has more influence) and they are just as American as they are italian. I am Sorry youcan’t see this, but I do

You are deluding yourself if you believe that non-family natives of your culture will view your children as anything but American. Sorry, you made your choice about where to primarily raise your family. This is the consequence. Natives may appreciate that your children may “get” the culture of your native country -but your children are still viewed as outsiders, even if people aren’t saying it to your face.

Ok... I rest my case... you have no clue

Sure hope you aren’t an attorney.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One more thing, my kids don’t “visit” there. They live 1/4 of their life there. Attend “school” and live that life. Also, nobody is American in our household (except for the kids) so the values and traditions they experience are only american at school and among friends. I truly think you are wrong about this

Look, I'm an immigrant married to an immigrant. No one in our household is American except the children. They speak both our languages with a native accent, watch TV in both languages, read, are enrolled in heritage schools, visit family, etc. I'm very sorry to have to tell you that the children in families like mine - and that includes dozens of families we know in a similar situation - are American through and through. Americans with roots in country X and country Y, but Americans nevertheless, that's the first and the most basic cornerstone of their identity. What they experience in school and among friends is their #1 reference, and if it hasn't become that, it will very shortly. You are laboring under the illusion that you can live in a country and remain free of it. I mean, you might. Your children, unless they live in diplomatic compound and are isolated from the natives, are not. I understand it might be painful for you to admit this, but it is actually true. My husband had to struggle to accept this so I know it isn't easy, but shielding your eyes from reality is never very attractive.

+1,000.

+2,000. PP here. And you are wrong, I have been to Italy many times, have close friends there from Sardinia to Milan. Italy is a pretty small country and quite parochial in mindset — the fact that Italians persist in thinking that these regions are so deeply different because they have different kinds of pasta and white people is a sign of that. I got called derogatory and inaccurate ethnic slurs everywhere I went there, because what it means to have an identity is so closely tied to a sense of locale. The US is fundamentally vaster and more diverse at core because it is a nation of immigrants and each wave brings its own history, culture, traditions — each wave is distinct from and unrelated to the others. This means the nation’s culture has evolved in relation to heterogeneity, not homogeneity. You see in our culture two polar reactions: paranoia and insider/outsider behavior, and idealized tolerance of diversity. Our national identity is not built on a sense of place, of here and there, but of immigration, exile, and home.

In any case, every immigrant assimilates differently and holds a different idealized narrative of relation to the homeland in their mind. I cannot speak to your experience. But I think you should be careful of projecting these ideals on your kids. Your view of the value of this experience is shaded by your culture and upbringing. As an outsider to the US, it will take you decades to grasp the depth of the difference between your children’s experience from yours.

[Anonymous]

Maybe the husband feels it is unfair for him to work while his wife takes a three week family vacation. Maybe when you only get to spend quality time with your children on the weekends you don’t want to miss three weekends.

But in the end, this is so much a decision that has to be made by the couple that our opinions don’t make a difference.