Italy ending Child Support and redefining divorce laws

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t believe in equal share custody. No such thing.

How so? Court-appointed split of calendar year or intervals of time shared. Seems pretty simple to implement. Also gives both parents a chance to see their children.

I'm divorced and ex-DH and I get along and coparent well. The kid definitely would not like a 50/50 split of time. DH's job is much more inflexible than mine and he works a lot and travels on a regular basis for work. There are also circumstances where both parents can't afford housing in the same neighborhood due to income disparity, which could mean each home is zoned for different schools. I have a bigger home and do the bulk of the after school activities because my house is the base and we don't live right next door to each other. He pays child support. Having that one size fits all policy isn't a good idea. I'm all for that as the starting point, but you have to take into consideration the individual circumstances. My good friend's husband is a consultant who is gone during the week and is home on the weekend. How would the no child support/equal custody rule work there? I would be fine with the equal custody/no child support if we lived in the same neighborhood so we had the same school zone, and if ex-DH had a job where he was home on a regular basis. That just isn't the case.

All the things you describe here are valid and exactly why I applauded that crazy judge a couple of years ago who suggested the the KIDS be awarded the family home and the parents need to figure out how to move in and out during their custody weeks! As a child from a broken home whose life was seriously disrupted due to my parents' divorce, I was cheering--YES!!!! The two of them were able to "move on" and go about their lives with minimal disruption after the initial chaos of the divorce. But I was 8 and had to put up with being shuttled back and forth between two places and two bedrooms and two sets of clothes (or remember to bring the ones I wanted with me!)...every week for the next 10 years. Misery!
And if the parents were forced to experience this, maybe they'd figure out it's not worth the hassle and stay married!

That would require a divorced situation to have three residences. The main house, and the parents each have separate places to go to. I think very, very few divorced families could afford something like that arrangement. And of course it makes it difficult for either parent to move on with their own lives as well, to date and remarry. Your own situation may have been challenging, but quite a few divorced kids grow up just fine and dandy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This law will destitute SAHMs and make it financially hard for them to divorce.

On the contrary I think it might give women a kick in the rear. More than half of Italy’s women don’t work outside the home. HALF. And that’s not uncommon throughout the EU.

What is wrong with that? Their husbands want them home nurturing the most important asset of their lives, the children.

It infantilizes 51% of the global population - that's whats wrong, which is why you see so many mothers encouraging their daughters in good educations/careers/work environments. Knowing that they hamstrung themselves and they don't want that for their girls.

Not to mention the economic effects of the nation's GDP. The countries with the worst working women ratios have the worst debt inflation.

Now you blame the world'd financial problems on women raising their own kids for a portion of their adult lives? You have issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t believe in equal share custody. No such thing.

How so? Court-appointed split of calendar year or intervals of time shared. Seems pretty simple to implement. Also gives both parents a chance to see their children.

I'm divorced and ex-DH and I get along and coparent well. The kid definitely would not like a 50/50 split of time. DH's job is much more inflexible than mine and he works a lot and travels on a regular basis for work. There are also circumstances where both parents can't afford housing in the same neighborhood due to income disparity, which could mean each home is zoned for different schools. I have a bigger home and do the bulk of the after school activities because my house is the base and we don't live right next door to each other. He pays child support. Having that one size fits all policy isn't a good idea. I'm all for that as the starting point, but you have to take into consideration the individual circumstances. My good friend's husband is a consultant who is gone during the week and is home on the weekend. How would the no child support/equal custody rule work there? I would be fine with the equal custody/no child support if we lived in the same neighborhood so we had the same school zone, and if ex-DH had a job where he was home on a regular basis. That just isn't the case.

As long as one parent/guardian is present in a residence in the school district and the child is there 50% of the time, it doesn’t matter if one or both has homes in-boundary. It just means the child’s commute will be longer with one parent over the other.

So what happens Giancarlo decides to move away from Torino with his mistress to a new flat in Genoa?
THis law is about old dudes.

Don’t be so obtuse. There is a way to split the school year - all summer, breaks, etc. where if it isn’t exactly EQUAL time, it’s equitable based on the circumstance (I.e. the parent who decided to move away might get less time). But at least the presumption of equality is there.

NP So one parent gets to be the fun parent when they only have them on summer and holidays? And the other parent has to do all the hard work? That isn't fair either!

[Anonymous]

PP- That was my childhood. I had to fun weekend dad and my mom did all of the work. Guess who I am close with as an adult? I am quite sure my dad was perfectly happy with that arrangement. It was way better than my friends who were constantly going back and forth every few days between mom and dad. They hated it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let's see

1) tumbling birthrate
2) high unemployment
3) one of the worst gender equality ratings in the EU
4) laws crafted by and benefiting wealthy men

Italy has put the cart before the horse- work on gender inequality and economy first- then concern themselves with what is equitable in a divorce settlement.

Or make marriage and children so unpalatable and economically disadvantaging to women that they have to implement "The Handmaid's Tale" if they want more Italian babies.

pp here - this is off topic from the Italy conversation, but I was reading a bit about birthrate because even progressive countries have declined to a point where it's very concerning - there are multiple causes, but a few things came across--

1. Gender equality needs to extend into the household. What I have read indicates that while work situations might become more progressive, women are (on average) still doing more work at home. Yes, of course there are plenty of men who do a lot, even up to 50/50, but there are many who don't. It may not even be equality so much as taking initiative to know and plan for what needs to be done - at least that's the issue in my household. Probably the result of some men with good intentions being raised in a more traditional environment.

2. Men and women say they are having trouble finding quality partners that they want to have children with. I don't know if everyone's expectations have gone up or the quality of partners has gone down. The relationship forum (non- explicit indicates that it's both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP- That was my childhood. I had to fun weekend dad and my mom did all of the work. Guess who I am close with as an adult? I am quite sure my dad was perfectly happy with that arrangement. It was way better than my friends who were constantly going back and forth every few days between mom and dad. They hated it.

I am curious, who are you closest with? You now realize how much your mom worked to raise you and you appreciate how fun your dad was. Aren't you close with both of them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP- That was my childhood. I had to fun weekend dad and my mom did all of the work. Guess who I am close with as an adult? I am quite sure my dad was perfectly happy with that arrangement. It was way better than my friends who were constantly going back and forth every few days between mom and dad. They hated it.

Your Dad probably had no choice at the time as it wasn't common to have 50/50 and he just accepted it. Your mom may not have let him the work and would only stick to the weekend arrangements.

[Anonymous]

As long as women get to abort when they get pregnant by jerks, I think it will be a-OK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is a great idea. And I'm female. I believe children would benefit if fathers shared more child rearing. You're not a father if you have the kids one weekend a month.

Ideally, yes.

In reality? Not every man is a good father. There needs to be flexibility. My sister is divorced. Her husband, while a nice man, is not capable of being a 50% parent. He just is not. His idea of spending time with his son is going to a park and spending the entire time on his phone while the kid runs around or sits around, bored. And he's clueless on so many things about childrearing and what's appropriate or not appropriate for children. And will always be. That's just who he is. It would hurt the child if he was forced to spend 50% of his time with his father and would probably make their relationship more difficult.

And I say the same for some mothers too. There has to be a system that allows courts to award majority custody to one parent over the other because that's the best for the child.

Moms can be lousy parents and still award custody. Its all very subjective and its easy for a judge or evaluator to be bias and for a parent to encourage the kids to be negative the other parent to gain custody. Most men are good fathers if given the chance. It should be an automatic 50/50 in less there is evidence of abuse or neglect toward the kids. Often, the house is set up in a way that works for the couple and Dad is blamed for not doing more when it may be for other reasons. If a Dad is given a chance, he may step up. If a parent doesn't have a 50% or just every other weekend its very hard to maintain a relationship and that parent status so of course they become the fun parent as you cannot parent much for 4 days a month, especially when the other parent is looking for anything to criticize about.

My husband's ex was a lousy parent. Kids are all pretty screwed up. My husband went to court many times over visitation and it was a joke as the judge would just tell mom to allow visitation, she'd say ok, then refuse it and repeat. Eventually he gave up as it was too costly to have an attorney full-time and fly back and forth each time visits were refused and the unused plane tickets. Both parents need to be held accountable, not just Dad's for child support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
As long as women get to abort when they get pregnant by jerks, I think it will be a-OK.

Sometimes the jerk gene doesn't assert itself until after the child is born.

Also, abortion is only technically legal in Italy- it's hard to obtain an abortion. The US is going the same direction.

Also, abortion really isn't the point- this is about what is fair in a society that has a poor record of gender equality. With unemployment, pay inequality, and these draconian laws, I wonder if Italian women may opt to live somewhere else.

[Anonymous]

So are we just going to ignore the fact that this legislation was introduced by a right-wing extremist who created it as a way to discourage women from seeking divorces, regardless of abuse or anything else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is a great idea. And I'm female. I believe children would benefit if fathers shared more child rearing. You're not a father if you have the kids one weekend a month.

Ideally, yes.

In reality? Not every man is a good father. There needs to be flexibility. My sister is divorced. Her husband, while a nice man, is not capable of being a 50% parent. He just is not. His idea of spending time with his son is going to a park and spending the entire time on his phone while the kid runs around or sits around, bored. And he's clueless on so many things about childrearing and what's appropriate or not appropriate for children. And will always be. That's just who he is. It would hurt the child if he was forced to spend 50% of his time with his father and would probably make their relationship more difficult.

And I say the same for some mothers too. There has to be a system that allows courts to award majority custody to one parent over the other because that's the best for the child.

Moms can be lousy parents and still award custody. Its all very subjective and its easy for a judge or evaluator to be bias and for a parent to encourage the kids to be negative the other parent to gain custody. Most men are good fathers if given the chance. It should be an automatic 50/50 in less there is evidence of abuse or neglect toward the kids. Often, the house is set up in a way that works for the couple and Dad is blamed for not doing more when it may be for other reasons. If a Dad is given a chance, he may step up. If a parent doesn't have a 50% or just every other weekend its very hard to maintain a relationship and that parent status so of course they become the fun parent as you cannot parent much for 4 days a month, especially when the other parent is looking for anything to criticize about.

My husband's ex was a lousy parent. Kids are all pretty screwed up. My husband went to court many times over visitation and it was a joke as the judge would just tell mom to allow visitation, she'd say ok, then refuse it and repeat. Eventually he gave up as it was too costly to have an attorney full-time and fly back and forth each time visits were refused and the unused plane tickets. Both parents need to be held accountable, not just Dad's for child support.

I agree that women can also be bad parents, but that's not what this is about- the 50% rule is not a progressive law recognizing men as parents. It's about child support and alimony laws that heavily favor the higher earning spouse, in most cases the husband.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So are we just going to ignore the fact that this legislation was introduced by a right-wing extremist who created it as a way to discourage women from seeking divorces, regardless of abuse or anything else?

I know--after reading a bit about the dude who masterminded it, it's clearly not about custody, parenting, etc. It's a way to impoverish women in divorce settlements. The only solution is for women to infiltrate careers that pay more and/or leave for a better country. Perhaps choose not to get married/have children with Italian men-- and if they do, certainly don't stop working for any length of time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The dad is still paying all her expenses by getting taxed up the wazoo for their social safety network. This has no analogy in the American system guys b

He's paying for his own social safety network too.

[Anonymous]

It's funny that the right wing in Italy would make up laws that could actually decrease their own population.