High points from MS magnet at Blair tonight

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as everyone is given the same test and the test differentiates students, it will be fine.

The reason for a math test was surely to find students who'd spent extra time thinking about math or who notice subtle things that may not be hammered home in the curriculum and therefore would hit the ground running in a magnet. But because there was a test, a culture of cram schools developed and instead the test just finds students who've been taught extra years of math. There's a difference between someone who gets a test question right because they're seeing a problem for the first time and have insight and someone who gets it right because they've already done it five times. There's a difference between someone who has potential to learn and grow in a magnet with like minded students and someone who will do well in the magnet because they've already completed middle school math. But it's not a huge difference and it's hard to isolate that with any test.

If nothing else, the process has to change from time to time to reset the cram schools. No one can say if the test prep works, but it's guaranteed that through talking with students who've taken the tests year in year out, the test prep organizers know more about the test and the types of questions that trip students up, than anyone else outside the testing office and selection committees. And they're the reason we can't have a math test.

Essay, so there isn't a graded essay, but there's a writing sample the committee can refer to themselves, that doesn't sound like a huge change. The purpose of an essay is to communicate, it doesn't need a score of 1-5 to do that.

Thank you. This may be the most reasonable post I've seen on this subject in my years on DCUM. I have to think that some of this panic is just folks who are afraid they are going to lose an advantage. If they can't BUY their way into the magnets with test prep, then what have they been working toward this whole time? If somehow the county is actually able to identify gifted kids rather than just well-prepared kids, then some folks are going to have to face the fact that their kid isn't gifted. Which....is fine. Some of the most successful people I know weren't the ones constantly being told they were smart as kids.

I'm not quite sure why so many people think magnets are so important to their kid's life. As they made clear at the meeting, it's 3 classes out of 7/8 per day. Yes, those 3 classes sound exciting, and the peer group is great, too. But weighing 3 classes vs. long bus ride, when you are otherwise in a fine school with a good peer group doesn't necessarily tip the scale in my book. I don't think the magnet mania is fueled by only successful parents in under performing school zones. What is going on with this?

[Anonymous]

I don't understand the mania either. And the oddest part is it seems to be driven by families who can afford the tutoring or classes and already live in the "good" part of the county. If they want to buy education, why not buy private? All I can figure is it's the perceived bargain and bragging rights--like wasting time at every discount store just to gloat about saving on picked over shoes--only everything's magnified when it comes to progeny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the mania either. And the oddest part is it seems to be driven by families who can afford the tutoring or classes and already live in the "good" part of the county. If they want to buy education, why not buy private? All I can figure is it's the perceived bargain and bragging rights--like wasting time at every discount store just to gloat about saving on picked over shoes--only everything's magnified when it comes to progeny.

I live in the "good" part of the county and my child was not challenged until she got to a magnet. Never studied..did all of her hw during the school day. We never did tutoring (why? she was already totally bored). After 7th grade she was totally sure she wanted a more competitive program for HS. I have another child who had plenty of challenge at the same MS and happily continued at our neighborhood HS. If you are happy where you are terrific. My child is not yours and I do understand. We don't have any mania..we just now have a child who is finally challenged in her school day. It is 4/8 classes for her but that makes a big difference!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the mania either. And the oddest part is it seems to be driven by families who can afford the tutoring or classes and already live in the "good" part of the county. If they want to buy education, why not buy private? All I can figure is it's the perceived bargain and bragging rights--like wasting time at every discount store just to gloat about saving on picked over shoes--only everything's magnified when it comes to progeny.

I live in the "good" part of the county and my child was not challenged until she got to a magnet. Never studied..did all of her hw during the school day. We never did tutoring (why? she was already totally bored). After 7th grade she was totally sure she wanted a more competitive program for HS. I have another child who had plenty of challenge at the same MS and happily continued at our neighborhood HS. If you are happy where you are terrific. My child is not yours and I do understand. We don't have any mania..we just now have a child who is finally challenged in her school day. It is 4/8 classes for her but that makes a big difference!

Just maybe, some of the families participating in the mania are connected to countries in the world where everything depends on testing success. Common in some places is a deep culture of cram schools. People often bring parts of their societal culture along when they move about the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are they also dropping the essay for Eastern?

Yes.

FYI: One of the criteria for evaluation that was mentioned a few times is current reading level.

Reading level?

A relative of ours went to Eastern magnet five years ago; the girl said the sheer volume of writing that needed to be done pretty much from day one was incredible. Without testing an applicant's ability to actually write, how will MCPS make sure the kids are up to task? By having them answer 10 multiple choice analogy questions?

I'm speechless.

That's good - perhaps you'll discontinue posting. Obviously you traffic in hyperbole and panic, since A) you didn't have a child at Eastern and are only posting based on anecdotal info and B) don't realize that children who can think at this level can actually be taught how to write above grade level relatively quickly even in 6th grade - shocker!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as everyone is given the same test and the test differentiates students, it will be fine.

The reason for a math test was surely to find students who'd spent extra time thinking about math or who notice subtle things that may not be hammered home in the curriculum and therefore would hit the ground running in a magnet. But because there was a test, a culture of cram schools developed and instead the test just finds students who've been taught extra years of math. There's a difference between someone who gets a test question right because they're seeing a problem for the first time and have insight and someone who gets it right because they've already done it five times. There's a difference between someone who has potential to learn and grow in a magnet with like minded students and someone who will do well in the magnet because they've already completed middle school math. But it's not a huge difference and it's hard to isolate that with any test.

If nothing else, the process has to change from time to time to reset the cram schools. No one can say if the test prep works, but it's guaranteed that through talking with students who've taken the tests year in year out, the test prep organizers know more about the test and the types of questions that trip students up, than anyone else outside the testing office and selection committees. And they're the reason we can't have a math test.

Essay, so there isn't a graded essay, but there's a writing sample the committee can refer to themselves, that doesn't sound like a huge change. The purpose of an essay is to communicate, it doesn't need a score of 1-5 to do that.

Thank you. This may be the most reasonable post I've seen on this subject in my years on DCUM. I have to think that some of this panic is just folks who are afraid they are going to lose an advantage. If they can't BUY their way into the magnets with test prep, then what have they been working toward this whole time? If somehow the county is actually able to identify gifted kids rather than just well-prepared kids, then some folks are going to have to face the fact that their kid isn't gifted. Which....is fine. Some of the most successful people I know weren't the ones constantly being told they were smart as kids.

EXACTLY!! Thank you both!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the mania either. And the oddest part is it seems to be driven by families who can afford the tutoring or classes and already live in the "good" part of the county. If they want to buy education, why not buy private? All I can figure is it's the perceived bargain and bragging rights--like wasting time at every discount store just to gloat about saving on picked over shoes--only everything's magnified when it comes to progeny.

I live in the "good" part of the county and my child was not challenged until she got to a magnet. Never studied..did all of her hw during the school day. We never did tutoring (why? she was already totally bored). After 7th grade she was totally sure she wanted a more competitive program for HS. I have another child who had plenty of challenge at the same MS and happily continued at our neighborhood HS. If you are happy where you are terrific. My child is not yours and I do understand. We don't have any mania..we just now have a child who is finally challenged in her school day. It is 4/8 classes for her but that makes a big difference!

Then you're not the parent I was referring to. I completely understand why a student might seek out the magnet (I would have at that age) and that you support your child in that also makes sense. But I also understand my kids may not share my interests (math), so starting a kid in tutoring at age seven just to make sure they are bored in school by middle school and can beat the test, I don't understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are they also dropping the essay for Eastern?

Yes.

FYI: One of the criteria for evaluation that was mentioned a few times is current reading level.

Reading level?

A relative of ours went to Eastern magnet five years ago; the girl said the sheer volume of writing that needed to be done pretty much from day one was incredible. Without testing an applicant's ability to actually write, how will MCPS make sure the kids are up to task? By having them answer 10 multiple choice analogy questions?

I'm speechless.

That's good - perhaps you'll discontinue posting. Obviously you traffic in hyperbole and panic, since A) you didn't have a child at Eastern and are only posting based on anecdotal info and B) don't realize that children who can think at this level can actually be taught how to write above grade level relatively quickly even in 6th grade - shocker!

Children who can 'think at this level' shouldn't be given an unfair advantage while there are children who already can think and write and have already demonstrated their academic advantage. And why don't you discontinue posting yourself since you've been trying to advance your agenda on multiple threads now, and your agenda is clearly a political one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are they also dropping the essay for Eastern?

Yes.

FYI: One of the criteria for evaluation that was mentioned a few times is current reading level.

Reading level?

A relative of ours went to Eastern magnet five years ago; the girl said the sheer volume of writing that needed to be done pretty much from day one was incredible. Without testing an applicant's ability to actually write, how will MCPS make sure the kids are up to task? By having them answer 10 multiple choice analogy questions?

I'm speechless.

That's good - perhaps you'll discontinue posting. Obviously you traffic in hyperbole and panic, since A) you didn't have a child at Eastern and are only posting based on anecdotal info and B) don't realize that children who can think at this level can actually be taught how to write above grade level relatively quickly even in 6th grade - shocker!

Children who can 'think at this level' shouldn't be given an unfair advantage while there are children who already can think and write and have already demonstrated their academic advantage. And why don't you discontinue posting yourself since you've been trying to advance your agenda on multiple threads now, and your agenda is clearly a political one.

NP: Your post makes it sound like the magnet program is an award. It isn't.

[Anonymous]

I feel like a lot of folks need to come to terms with the fact that being in a magnet program is not a reward for having good parents. In fact, ideally it would have nothing to do with a child's parents at all.

It is meant to meet the needs of kids whose needs are not being met in their home schools. Yes, that may mean that kids from struggling schools will be overrepresented, but the goal is that ALL high performing kids will have their needs met.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the mania either. And the oddest part is it seems to be driven by families who can afford the tutoring or classes and already live in the "good" part of the county. If they want to buy education, why not buy private? All I can figure is it's the perceived bargain and bragging rights--like wasting time at every discount store just to gloat about saving on picked over shoes--only everything's magnified when it comes to progeny.

I live in the "good" part of the county and my child was not challenged until she got to a magnet. Never studied..did all of her hw during the school day. We never did tutoring (why? she was already totally bored). After 7th grade she was totally sure she wanted a more competitive program for HS. I have another child who had plenty of challenge at the same MS and happily continued at our neighborhood HS. If you are happy where you are terrific. My child is not yours and I do understand. We don't have any mania..we just now have a child who is finally challenged in her school day. It is 4/8 classes for her but that makes a big difference!

Just maybe, some of the families participating in the mania are connected to countries in the world where everything depends on testing success. Common in some places is a deep culture of cram schools. People often bring parts of their societal culture along when they move about the world.

I appreciate both of these perspectives. Thanks for sharing them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course you could not find any explicit evidence for that race is one of considerations for admission into magnet program. They made it clear that the selection process is race neutral. So what? Why the changes are needed for competitive academic merit-based magnet programs? Because the students admitted into the selective programs not doing so well in their way down to high schools or colleges? Why all the gifted programs from elementary to high schools are localized in schools with greatschool ratings around 5 to 6 even lower (Cold spring or Chevy Chase ES HPG is somewhat exception)? This year, 4 kids left my DC's elementary GT program since they could not catch up with curriculum. All of them are from under-representative groups. I am wondering what will happen if these seats were issued to kids from over-representative groups? If MCPS keep playing this kind of games (changing the name of highly gifted center, change the curriculum, change the name and style of test, including tons of non-objective evaluation criteria), the program will be or has been watered down. Why nobody talking about or worried about any changes to magnet programs in Parkland, Argyle and Loiederman middle schools? It is lottery based program, only depending on your luck. MCPS definitely could use lottery to decide the seats for Takoma and Eastern magnet programs. It would be the best solution to reflect the demorgraphy of MCPS enrollment.

Goddamit, you are going to make me waste 10 minutes of my time demonstrating that this isn't true. But I'll do it, because you seem to be assuming that any school with Black kids must be a GS 5 or 6.

Pine Crest - GS8
Piney Branch - GS7
Oak View - GS5
Matsunaga - GS9
Rachel Carson - GS9
Stonegate ES - GS8
Fox Chapel - GS8
Barnsley - GS9

Takoma Park MS - GS10
Eastern MS - GS8

I think I love you for doing this.

ditto!

[Anonymous]

The students accepted into magnet are not on the same level. At Takoma magnet, a few students start at Algebra at 6th grade bc they were either home schooled, advanced due to transfer fron other states or county, or were advanced in mcps in ES. However, mojority 6th grade students take magnet IM. The IM class offered is too easy for 1/3 of students, just right for 3/5 of students, but too hard for the rest students. So, the top group is looking into other sources for enrichment or diving into math competition. For students in the bottom group, they could find help in school or tuor to make sure they catch up with the rest of their class.
Remember, the students are human being, not robots. There is always a bellcurve, or normal distribution in any measurement. By the way, math is only part of the SAMC program

[Anonymous]

I think it is more possible to have less rigorous selection criteria for the HGCs. These are 4th and 5th grade students and it is easier to bring a few kids who might not have the best writing and math skills to the same level as the rest. In MS and even more so in HS, having raw ability isn't enough. Also remember the class sizes are the same as other MCPS classes so it isn't possible for teachers to spend time providing individualized guidance to students who are struggling. One of the main reasons magnet classes are able to move faster while simultaneously going into topics in more depth is because there isn't a ton of variation in any given classroom. These kids are pretty much on the same level (although there are always a healthy number of kids who are super smart).
I know people hate the sports analogies but it would be like trying to field a high school varsity soccer team based on how nimble and agile players are instead of picking the players who play soccer really well due to a combination of raw talent as well as years of hard work and practice. Most kids need both to perform at a high level and if the school tries to focus too much on raw talent and less on experience, proven ability etc. they will have to devote more resources to bringing these recruits up to speed so that the team can perform well. Given the fragile state of magnet school funding, this won't happen and the path of least resistance will be for the program and curriculum to be watered down over time. This is what makes a lot of magnet parents really upset about MCPS's response to the Metis study.

I would support any effort to close the gaps in Math, Reading and Writing competencies. I would argue these gaps are smaller and easier to close in younger children and anything the county can do to identify raw talent at a young age. Unfortunately, it is too late by 9th grade and in most cases even by 6th grade.
I have mixed feelings about the test prep centers. My personal opinion is that they do not necessarily give children an unfair advantage. What gives many of these children an advantage is that they are more likely to be hard working, come from families that prize education etc. I would not be surprised if many of these kids would have succeeded without the prep center. I am not convinced that the majority of magnet kids have gone to a prep center- I personally don't know many who did. I will also restate what I said earlier - you need a combination of raw ability and years of practice and hard work to get in and to succeed in the HS and to some extent the MS magnets. Kids who have a lot of raw ability but don't have the competency that comes with years of practice will have a tough time AND kids who work really hard or perhaps prep a lot but don't have a lot of raw ability will also have a hard time. I actually think the current HS magnet selection process does a decent job of identifying kids who have both qualities in abundance- raw ability as well as the proficiency that comes with years of hard work and practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are they also dropping the essay for Eastern?

Yes.

FYI: One of the criteria for evaluation that was mentioned a few times is current reading level.

Reading level?

A relative of ours went to Eastern magnet five years ago; the girl said the sheer volume of writing that needed to be done pretty much from day one was incredible. Without testing an applicant's ability to actually write, how will MCPS make sure the kids are up to task? By having them answer 10 multiple choice analogy questions?

I'm speechless.

I don't think that the essays were a good measure of an applicant's ability to actually write. The application essays were a good measure of an applicant's access to somebody who could help them with their essays, and the test essay was a good measure of an applicant's ability to come up with something in a short period of time in response to a writing prompt.