High points from MS magnet at Blair tonight

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Of course you could not find any explicit evidence for that race is one of considerations for admission into magnet program. They made it clear that the selection process is race neutral. So what? Why the changes are needed for competitive academic merit-based magnet programs? Because the students admitted into the selective programs not doing so well in their way down to high schools or colleges? Why all the gifted programs from elementary to high schools are localized in schools with greatschool ratings around 5 to 6 even lower (Cold spring or Chevy Chase ES HPG is somewhat exception)? This year, 4 kids left my DC's elementary GT program since they could not catch up with curriculum. All of them are from under-representative groups. I am wondering what will happen if these seats were issued to kids from over-representative groups? If MCPS keep playing this kind of games (changing the name of highly gifted center, change the curriculum, change the name and style of test, including tons of non-objective evaluation criteria), the program will be or has been watered down. Why nobody talking about or worried about any changes to magnet programs in Parkland, Argyle and Loiederman middle schools? It is lottery based program, only depending on your luck. MCPS definitely could use lottery to decide the seats for Takoma and Eastern magnet programs. It would be the best solution to reflect the demorgraphy of MCPS enrollment.

Goddamit, you are going to make me waste 10 minutes of my time demonstrating that this isn't true. But I'll do it, because you seem to be assuming that any school with Black kids must be a GS 5 or 6.

Pine Crest - GS8
Piney Branch - GS7
Oak View - GS5
Matsunaga - GS9
Rachel Carson - GS9
Stonegate ES - GS8
Fox Chapel - GS8
Barnsley - GS9

Takoma Park MS - GS10
Eastern MS - GS8

I think I love you for doing this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, you forgot

Clearspring - GS 9
Roberto Clemente MS - GS 8
Poolesville HS - GS 8

Ah - I was trying to round up the not Clearspring schools, but yes. There is only one center that is below a GS7, quite contrary to PP's assertion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me understand this. So they will select kids for Takoma Math/Science program without using math in the assessment test??

Yes, I spoke to the MCPS reps after the event and they confirmed that the test was changed to evaluate how a child thinks (reasoning ability) and also because MCPS is aware that there is test prepping going on and that is why MCPS is not providing sample questions/practice exam to level the playing field.

Well, if you provide sample questions to ALL the kids (send them home with the info packet), then would that not level the playing field?
Instead, as it works, kids who can afford test prep can do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me understand this. So they will select kids for Takoma Math/Science program without using math in the assessment test??

Yes, I spoke to the MCPS reps after the event and they confirmed that the test was changed to evaluate how a child thinks (reasoning ability) and also because MCPS is aware that there is test prepping going on and that is why MCPS is not providing sample questions/practice exam to level the playing field.

Well, if you provide sample questions to ALL the kids (send them home with the info packet), then would that not level the playing field?
Instead, as it works, kids who can afford test prep can do so.

No. That's what they've been doing. It just gives more information and more business to the test prep companies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, you forgot

Clearspring - GS 9
Roberto Clemente MS - GS 8
Poolesville HS - GS 8

Ah - I was trying to round up the not Clearspring schools, but yes. There is only one center that is below a GS7, quite contrary to PP's assertion.

(Clearspring is in Damascus. Cold Spring is in Potomac. I am also grateful that you wasted your time rounding up the numbers to disprove the PP's assertion!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me understand this. So they will select kids for Takoma Math/Science program without using math in the assessment test??

Yes, I spoke to the MCPS reps after the event and they confirmed that the test was changed to evaluate how a child thinks (reasoning ability) and also because MCPS is aware that there is test prepping going on and that is why MCPS is not providing sample questions/practice exam to level the playing field.

Well, if you provide sample questions to ALL the kids (send them home with the info packet), then would that not level the playing field?
Instead, as it works, kids who can afford test prep can do so.

The test changed, but where does it say what is or isn't on it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, you forgot

Clearspring - GS 9
Roberto Clemente MS - GS 8
Poolesville HS - GS 8

Ah - I was trying to round up the not Clearspring schools, but yes. There is only one center that is below a GS7, quite contrary to PP's assertion.

(Clearspring is in Damascus. Cold Spring is in Potomac. I am also grateful that you wasted your time rounding up the numbers to disprove the PP's assertion!)

TIL that Clearspring and Cold Spring are not the same place. I just assumed this whole time that people were confused.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me understand this. So they will select kids for Takoma Math/Science program without using math in the assessment test??

Yes, I spoke to the MCPS reps after the event and they confirmed that the test was changed to evaluate how a child thinks (reasoning ability) and also because MCPS is aware that there is test prepping going on and that is why MCPS is not providing sample questions/practice exam to level the playing field.

That can't be good for the test prep industry in Montgomery County. Maybe the governor should issue an executive order about this, too.

I think more opaque the admission criteria, more the test prep industry will thrive.

I have seen AA and HI students who were taken in highly selective programs just to boost MCPS numbers crash and burn in these programs. Currently, many students in the magnet programs are supplementing in some way and they are not relying just on the magnet programs to get ahead. The test prep centers have also become a tutoring center since many years. Students who are attending these centers are not going there because they need academic intervention, in fact many of these students are much more accelerated than the magnet programs that they are in.

Most AA and HI students are not getting any supplemental help at home or school. Most importantly, even if programs for academic enrichment and accelerations are put in the school, the schools cannot force these students to take supplemental help. The achievement gap has become the problem of the school systems to solve, where as it should be the problem of the parents to solve. The school system need to only provide programs for tutoring and supplementing in the school, and parents should make their children comply in attending these programs.

The AA and HI students who have done well in highly selective programs are usually those who belonged to middle class homes were education is valued, parents are educated and are well aware of the benefit of magnet programs. Most are immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean and do not carry the historical burden of slavery.

The magnets are not seen as the end all by most magnet parents. Mainly they want their students in these programs because of the peer group and acceleration. As such the magnet parents are putting a lot of time and resources in the education of their children. Thanks to MCPS's well-intentioned but misguided attempts, the achievement gaps are only going to become bigger and wider.

This is boom time for the test prep centers.

I don't know where to begin with this post. Don't know if I can tackle the first part without saying something really really nasty. I will just say that every child admitted into these programs has fully deserved to be there.
Rgarding the prep centers. I have a magnet HS kid who is doing well but my kid does not have the time to do extra school work. I don't know "many" kids who regularly go to prep centers. There might be some but not many. I don't think it is necessary. Now there are families who use tutors for students who are having trouble with a particular course but that is different I would argue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I have seen AA and HI students who were taken in highly selective programs just to boost MCPS numbers crash and burn in these programs. Currently, many students in the magnet programs are supplementing in some way and they are not relying just on the magnet programs to get ahead. The test prep centers have also become a tutoring center since many years. Students who are attending these centers are not going there because they need academic intervention, in fact many of these students are much more accelerated than the magnet programs that they are in.

Back up here. Let's start with -- how do you know that these students were admitted "just to boost MCPS numbers"?

If you have proof that MCPS is using race as a factor in admissions to magnet programs, then you should go to DOJ, because that's illegal.

Of course you could not find any explicit evidence for that race is one of considerations for admission into magnet program. They made it clear that the selection process is race neutral. So what? Why the changes are needed for competitive academic merit-based magnet programs? Because the students admitted into the selective programs not doing so well in their way down to high schools or colleges? Why all the gifted programs from elementary to high schools are localized in schools with greatschool ratings around 5 to 6 even lower (Cold spring or Chevy Chase ES HPG is somewhat exception)? This year, 4 kids left my DC's elementary GT program since they could not catch up with curriculum. All of them are from under-representative groups. I am wondering what will happen if these seats were issued to kids from over-representative groups? If MCPS keep playing this kind of games (changing the name of highly gifted center, change the curriculum, change the name and style of test, including tons of non-objective evaluation criteria), the program will be or has been watered down. Why nobody talking about or worried about any changes to magnet programs in Parkland, Argyle and Loiederman middle schools? It is lottery based program, only depending on your luck. MCPS definitely could use lottery to decide the seats for Takoma and Eastern magnet programs. It would be the best solution to reflect the demorgraphy of MCPS enrollment.

Wow, already? It is only a month into the program. I wonder which center this is? I wonder at what point will MCPS start to water down the curriculum even more so that they don't have attritions like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course you could not find any explicit evidence for that race is one of considerations for admission into magnet program. They made it clear that the selection process is race neutral. So what? Why the changes are needed for competitive academic merit-based magnet programs? Because the students admitted into the selective programs not doing so well in their way down to high schools or colleges? Why all the gifted programs from elementary to high schools are localized in schools with greatschool ratings around 5 to 6 even lower (Cold spring or Chevy Chase ES HPG is somewhat exception)? This year, 4 kids left my DC's elementary GT program since they could not catch up with curriculum. All of them are from under-representative groups. I am wondering what will happen if these seats were issued to kids from over-representative groups? If MCPS keep playing this kind of games (changing the name of highly gifted center, change the curriculum, change the name and style of test, including tons of non-objective evaluation criteria), the program will be or has been watered down. Why nobody talking about or worried about any changes to magnet programs in Parkland, Argyle and Loiederman middle schools? It is lottery based program, only depending on your luck. MCPS definitely could use lottery to decide the seats for Takoma and Eastern magnet programs. It would be the best solution to reflect the demorgraphy of MCPS enrollment.

Wow, already? It is only a month into the program. I wonder which center this is? I wonder at what point will MCPS start to water down the curriculum even more so that they don't have attritions like this.

I would like to know how that PP knows that four kids left the PP's child's program because they could not catch up with curriculum, one month into the school year. Also which "elementary GT" program it is. PP doesn't say.

[Anonymous]

Wow! That may be end of Takoma.
I am not an interested party (my kids already out of MS, but I had two there.)
Actually one of my kids was not that good in standardized Reading Comp, and bombed the test.
Child was very good on Math and Logic and got accepted.

With new test it would be problematic.
On the other hand CTY had two types of tests to get kids in the program. One was without Math (Used spatial reasoning.)
So if CTY could select smart kids that way, probably MCPS theoretically can do it too.
However, I feel that it smells bad in case of MCPS. They are definitely prepared to cook accepting process.
They also for very long time used Geography and balancing to make sure that they do not get only kids from Ws, or B-CC.

Poor Takoma Magnet... If you they will get a smart kid who is not good at Math, that kid is doomed there... I know a lot of extremely smart people who are not necessary good at math. By the way artists are usually very good at spatial reasoning. They will not fit Takoma...
I guess major criteria for selection will be Map-M and crappy PARC...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow! That may be end of Takoma.
I am not an interested party (my kids already out of MS, but I had two there.)
Actually one of my kids was not that good in standardized Reading Comp, and bombed the test.
Child was very good on Math and Logic and got accepted.

With new test it would be problematic.
On the other hand CTY had two types of tests to get kids in the program. One was without Math (Used spatial reasoning.)
So if CTY could select smart kids that way, probably MCPS theoretically can do it too.
However, I feel that it smells bad in case of MCPS. They are definitely prepared to cook accepting process.
They also for very long time used Geography and balancing to make sure that they do not get only kids from Ws, or B-CC.

Poor Takoma Magnet... If you they will get a smart kid who is not good at Math, that kid is doomed there... I know a lot of extremely smart people who are not necessary good at math. By the way artists are usually very good at spatial reasoning. They will not fit Takoma...
I guess major criteria for selection will be Map-M and crappy PARC...

I believe they will be using spatial reasoning like CTY. If a kid is in compacted math and does well on Map-M they have enough data to tell if they are good at math. There is plenty of research that supports dropping the quantitative test in favor of non-verbal reasoning: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/desc.12138/asset/desc12138.pdf;jsessionid=7F7880B739443EC09512BD6A19FF48C6.f03t01?v=1&t=j8qex76x&s=34ba5db2a5b6763ba3dc9050ad1af49a862bd5b2

[Anonymous]

Are they also dropping the essay for Eastern?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here, thanks to all- I had found the link but have watched only halfway through. So thank you for putting main points here. Interesting there's no math part in the assessment which was actually the real selection criteria fir the G&T kids.

So are we sure there is no math in the testing? I heard that applicants to both programs will be tested in the same way but I never heard it explicitly stated that math isn't part of that test. They haven't given out sample problems, but again that doesn't preclude anything. Either way Map scores and quarter one grades are considered, so not as if math ability is removed from consideration it's already part of the student's record.

The real purpose of the pilot is supposed to be to cast a wider net and remove barriers to consideration. If part of that means making sure students who have trained extensively outside of school aren't given extra weight, so be it. This doesn't mean those students don't already have an advantage in their classroom grades and Map scores, just that in school achievement will be the first consideration.

The second part of the pilot program is expanding the offerings at the home school if there's already a large peer group. This sounds sensible, why bus students cross county if they can fill a magnet classroom in the home school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here, thanks to all- I had found the link but have watched only halfway through. So thank you for putting main points here. Interesting there's no math part in the assessment which was actually the real selection criteria fir the G&T kids.

So are we sure there is no math in the testing? I heard that applicants to both programs will be tested in the same way but I never heard it explicitly stated that math isn't part of that test. They haven't given out sample problems, but again that doesn't preclude anything. Either way Map scores and quarter one grades are considered, so not as if math ability is removed from consideration it's already part of the student's record.

The real purpose of the pilot is supposed to be to cast a wider net and remove barriers to consideration. If part of that means making sure students who have trained extensively outside of school aren't given extra weight, so be it. This doesn't mean those students don't already have an advantage in their classroom grades and Map scores, just that in school achievement will be the first consideration.

The second part of the pilot program is expanding the offerings at the home school if there's already a large peer group. This sounds sensible, why bus students cross county if they can fill a magnet classroom in the home school?

I heard the MCPS reps talking to parents after the Q&A, and they said the test would be verbal/non-verbal. Someone asked about math and the MCPS rep said no direct math testing. Same test for post magnets. Essay for Eastern is eliminated. There will be 1 open-ended question that will not be scored, but should address your child's interest in the programs.