Some facts about Holistic Admissions Criteria from Stanford Daily

[Anonymous]

Here is a NYT article about the U Texas/SCOTUS case.

Note the following statement from the U. Texas:

Gregory L. Fenves, the president of the University of Texas at Austin, said his school’s admissions program was lawful.

“Under the Supreme Court’s existing precedent, the university’s commitment to using race as one factor in an individualized, holistic admissions policy allows us to assemble a student body that brings with it the educational benefits of diversity for all students,” he said in a statement. “Our admissions policy is narrowly tailored, constitutional and has been upheld by the courts multiple times.”

This is not only an admission of racism, it's being shoved down our throats as "for our own good".

I hope SCOTUS rules in favor of Abigail Fisher. These nasty progressive policies will bring what makes our country strong, down to mediocre levels, where hard work is frowned upon and increasing handouts are touted as beneficial.

Want to know how that worked out for other nations? See Venezuela. See Greece.

[Anonymous]

Another great article:

http://www.science20.com/science_20/its_time_for_racism_in_college_admissions_to_go-156379

"A society that has rightly been celebrating victories for health care and marriage has to be uncomfortable siding with fringe progressives who insist there is no tolerance in America unless whites and Asians are penalized. Because it's 2015, it is time to take an ethical stand against all racism, and not just turn a blind eye to racism against Asians and even white people."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:more asians need to focus on sports instead. I am one of 4 asian siblings and I was the only one not to get into an elite college even though I had similar or better stats than my younger siblings.

I'm much older than them - I played sports but never trained in them with the mindset of using it as a 'hook' - we didn't understand that stuff. After I went through the process, I realized the best hook is getting recruited for sports so my younger siblings were all put in sports that they were good at - but the key difference is they were then pushed to excel in them by putting them in the best teams and sacrificing for them to play in the best competitions.

the results speak for themselves.

So my advice to tj/asian kids parents - make your kid focus on a sport and then make it like it is the 4th section of the SAT's.

My advice would be to stop trying to find a formula and let your kid be who they are. Colleges can spot the paint-by-number robots a mile away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:more asians need to focus on sports instead. I am one of 4 asian siblings and I was the only one not to get into an elite college even though I had similar or better stats than my younger siblings.

I'm much older than them - I played sports but never trained in them with the mindset of using it as a 'hook' - we didn't understand that stuff. After I went through the process, I realized the best hook is getting recruited for sports so my younger siblings were all put in sports that they were good at - but the key difference is they were then pushed to excel in them by putting them in the best teams and sacrificing for them to play in the best competitions.

the results speak for themselves.

So my advice to tj/asian kids parents - make your kid focus on a sport and then make it like it is the 4th section of the SAT's.

My advice would be to stop trying to find a formula and let your kid be who they are. Colleges can spot the paint-by-number robots a mile away.

My advice is to stop giving colleges this much power to begin with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:more asians need to focus on sports instead. I am one of 4 asian siblings and I was the only one not to get into an elite college even though I had similar or better stats than my younger siblings.

I'm much older than them - I played sports but never trained in them with the mindset of using it as a 'hook' - we didn't understand that stuff. After I went through the process, I realized the best hook is getting recruited for sports so my younger siblings were all put in sports that they were good at - but the key difference is they were then pushed to excel in them by putting them in the best teams and sacrificing for them to play in the best competitions.

the results speak for themselves.

So my advice to tj/asian kids parents - make your kid focus on a sport and then make it like it is the 4th section of the SAT's.

My advice would be to stop trying to find a formula and let your kid be who they are. Colleges can spot the paint-by-number robots a mile away.

Colleges don't care if your 'paint-by-the-number robot' is tagged by the coach as a recruit and then has typical asian stats. That's a godsend to elite schools (and coaches love it too because they can use a different slot for a lower stat kid who really needs a push).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is a NYT article about the U Texas/SCOTUS case.

Note the following statement from the U. Texas:

Gregory L. Fenves, the president of the University of Texas at Austin, said his school’s admissions program was lawful.

“Under the Supreme Court’s existing precedent, the university’s commitment to using race as one factor in an individualized, holistic admissions policy allows us to assemble a student body that brings with it the educational benefits of diversity for all students,” he said in a statement. “Our admissions policy is narrowly tailored, constitutional and has been upheld by the courts multiple times.”

This is not only an admission of racism, it's being shoved down our throats as "for our own good".

I hope SCOTUS rules in favor of Abigail Fisher. These nasty progressive policies will bring what makes our country strong, down to mediocre levels, where hard work is frowned upon and increasing handouts are touted as beneficial.

Want to know how that worked out for other nations? See Venezuela. See Greece.

Yes, I do think Fisher II will be ruled in favor of her. Scotus wouldn't agree to rehear the case only 2 years after hearing it for the first time unless they were dissatisfied with how the lower court/utexas proceeded.

IMO what you will see is affirmative action being barred for any public college across the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a NYT article about the U Texas/SCOTUS case.

Note the following statement from the U. Texas:

Gregory L. Fenves, the president of the University of Texas at Austin, said his school’s admissions program was lawful.

“Under the Supreme Court’s existing precedent, the university’s commitment to using race as one factor in an individualized, holistic admissions policy allows us to assemble a student body that brings with it the educational benefits of diversity for all students,” he said in a statement. “Our admissions policy is narrowly tailored, constitutional and has been upheld by the courts multiple times.”

This is not only an admission of racism, it's being shoved down our throats as "for our own good".

I hope SCOTUS rules in favor of Abigail Fisher. These nasty progressive policies will bring what makes our country strong, down to mediocre levels, where hard work is frowned upon and increasing handouts are touted as beneficial.

Want to know how that worked out for other nations? See Venezuela. See Greece.

Yes, I do think Fisher II will be ruled in favor of her. Scotus wouldn't agree to rehear the case only 2 years after hearing it for the first time unless they were dissatisfied with how the lower court/utexas proceeded.

IMO what you will see is affirmative action being barred for any public college across the country.

Good. Minorities are plenty smart enough to get in on their own merit. Only racists feel African Americans and Hispanics don't have the brains to make it on their own.

[Anonymous]

Want to see the jokesters who control your kids' futures? Note the AGE of some of these admissions counselors: 25? PLEASE!

From the Daily Beast article referenced below:

Former admissions officer at elite, small liberal arts college in the Northeast, age 25

“One year I had a student with a near-perfect SAT score and straight A’s. I’d originally put him in the submitted pile, but then we had to reduce the list. I reread his essays and frankly, they were just a little more boring than the other kids. So I cut him. Boring was the only justification that I needed and he was out.

Former admissions officer, elite, small liberal arts college in Massachusetts:

We were always looking for candidates from underrepresented groups. So if you are just a typical white girl from New Jersey and your application didn’t pass muster, it was relegated to the reject pile without a second thought. With a minority kid with the same stats, you just can’t do that. They always warrant a second or even third look.”

And my personal favorite from the same 25 year old above:

"One night, I got food poisoning at a restaurant in Buffalo. The next day, I rejected all the Buffalo applications."


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/01/09/dirty-secrets-of-college-admissions.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

This is exactly right. The problem is the criteria are being applied different. It is unabashed racism. When colleges are ADDING 150 to 175 points (per the Princeton review) to Black and Hispanic scores because they are Black and Hispanic, colleges are being racist. End of.

There is also the HUGE issue of Caucasian, Indian and Asian students having to work to super-human ideals in order to impress a bunch of admissions counselors who don't work nearly has hard as those they are judging. It's wholly disgusting.

NP here. I am an Asian. I know there is reverse racism in college admission, however would like to know if there is any irrefutable evidence for the above statement. If there is why cannot concerned parents band together to bring class action suit? Any Asian lawyers here?

I am tired of living like "second class" citizen in this country working extra hard for every opportunity, that other races can avail much easier because they were treated poorly in the past by certain race.

Here is another excellent article with lots of detail, as well as reference material compiled over years:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

[Anonymous]

"All these elite universities strongly deny the existence of any sort of racial discrimination against Asians in the admissions process, let alone an “Asian quota,” with senior administrators instead claiming that the potential of each student is individually evaluated via a holistic process far superior to any mechanical reliance on grades or test scores; but such public postures are identical to those taken by their academic predecessors in the 1920s and 1930s as documented by Karabel. Fortunately, we can investigate the plausibility of these claims by examining the decades of officially reported enrollment data available from the website of the National Center for Educational Statistics (NCES)."

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My advice is to stop giving colleges this much power to begin with.

Their power only works on the "Ivy or bust" mindset.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

I don't know if your numbers are factual, but as a statistician I can tell you that a correlation of 0.48 is nothing to scoff at.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:more asians need to focus on sports instead. I am one of 4 asian siblings and I was the only one not to get into an elite college even though I had similar or better stats than my younger siblings.

I'm much older than them - I played sports but never trained in them with the mindset of using it as a 'hook' - we didn't understand that stuff. After I went through the process, I realized the best hook is getting recruited for sports so my younger siblings were all put in sports that they were good at - but the key difference is they were then pushed to excel in them by putting them in the best teams and sacrificing for them to play in the best competitions.

the results speak for themselves.

So my advice to tj/asian kids parents - make your kid focus on a sport and then make it like it is the 4th section of the SAT's.

My advice would be to stop trying to find a formula and let your kid be who they are. Colleges can spot the paint-by-number robots a mile away.

My advice is to stop giving colleges this much power to begin with.

Exactly. Nobody with means is "shut out" of college. If you can't go to Harvard or Stanford or Williams or Amherst or UVA, go to Emory or Tulane or American or Kenyon or Kalamazoo or Occidental or JMU or Mary Washington.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

This is exactly right. The problem is the criteria are being applied different. It is unabashed racism. When colleges are ADDING 150 to 175 points (per the Princeton review) to Black and Hispanic scores because they are Black and Hispanic, colleges are being racist. End of.

There is also the HUGE issue of Caucasian, Indian and Asian students having to work to super-human ideals in order to impress a bunch of admissions counselors who don't work nearly has hard as those they are judging. It's wholly disgusting.

NP here. I am an Asian. I know there is reverse racism in college admission, however would like to know if there is any irrefutable evidence for the above statement. If there is why cannot concerned parents band together to bring class action suit? Any Asian lawyers here?

I am tired of living like "second class" citizen in this country working extra hard for every opportunity, that other races can avail much easier because they were treated poorly in the past by certain race.

I'm the one who just posted the link. There is a class-action suit against Harvard. There is also a SC case from a white girl re: U. Texas Austin: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/30/us/supreme-court-will-reconsider-affirmative-action-case.html?_r=0

As a white Jewish woman with a white daughter who was systematically shut out of almost every college she applied to (non-Ivys but good schools nonetheless), even with stellar credentials (she is 'unhooked' though), I feel your outrage and completely support you.

I'm confused. So whites aren't getting in, Asians aren't getting in and the AA/Hispanic numbers aren't really that high. So who is getting the spots?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

This is exactly right. The problem is the criteria are being applied different. It is unabashed racism. When colleges are ADDING 150 to 175 points (per the Princeton review) to Black and Hispanic scores because they are Black and Hispanic, colleges are being racist. End of.

There is also the HUGE issue of Caucasian, Indian and Asian students having to work to super-human ideals in order to impress a bunch of admissions counselors who don't work nearly has hard as those they are judging. It's wholly disgusting.

NP here. I am an Asian. I know there is reverse racism in college admission, however would like to know if there is any irrefutable evidence for the above statement. If there is why cannot concerned parents band together to bring class action suit? Any Asian lawyers here?

I am tired of living like "second class" citizen in this country working extra hard for every opportunity, that other races can avail much easier because they were treated poorly in the past by certain race.

I'm the one who just posted the link. There is a class-action suit against Harvard. There is also a SC case from a white girl re: U. Texas Austin: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/30/us/supreme-court-will-reconsider-affirmative-action-case.html?_r=0

As a white Jewish woman with a white daughter who was systematically shut out of almost every college she applied to (non-Ivys but good schools nonetheless), even with stellar credentials (she is 'unhooked' though), I feel your outrage and completely support you.

I'm confused. So whites aren't getting in, Asians aren't getting in and the AA/Hispanic numbers aren't really that high. So who is getting the spots?

D'oh!