S/O what kind of woman neglects the physical and emotional needs of her spouse

[Anonymous]

I find it really sad that the ONLY issue mentioned as a marriage vow obligation is sex. What about kindness in general. Maybe if you treated each other with love and respect on a daily basis, sex would come naturally. I have been married 20 years now and as mentioned on this forum libidos go up and down but unless you have a beautiful relationship you aren't going to make it. I hear so much anger here and it has to go deeper than a simple need for sex or you never had much of a relationship in the first place. Good luck everyone. I hope you work it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it really sad that the ONLY issue mentioned as a marriage vow obligation is sex. What about kindness in general. Maybe if you treated each other with love and respect on a daily basis, sex would come naturally. I have been married 20 years now and as mentioned on this forum libidos go up and down but unless you have a beautiful relationship you aren't going to make it. I hear so much anger here and it has to go deeper than a simple need for sex or you never had much of a relationship in the first place. Good luck everyone. I hope you work it out.

DH PP here. I absolutely agree- there is so much more to this issue than simply the frequency of sex. But this thread has pretty much focused on that aspect alone. And honestly- I think that's okay. It's pretty refreshing that this discussion has gone on for multiple pages with discourse, disagreement, and staying on-topic, for the most part. Even though I've disagreed with several PPs, I appreciate their honesty and ability to agree to disagree on such a sensitive and potentially inflammatory subject.

[Anonymous]

It is worse for women who wants sex but their husbands are not interested. A disinterested woman can at least "fake" it occasionally. A disinterested man cannot "fake" it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the PPs who has issues with the "entitled to sex" posters. I do not at all disagree that sexual intimacy is a healthy and necessary component of a good marriage, or that it can be incredibly damaging psychologically and emotionally to be sexually rejected, especially over a long period of time, by the person who is supposed to love you.

<snippage>

As the PP says, there is a lot of middle ground between "never" and "constantly" having sex. When you start throwing in obligations, it turns the whole conversation transactional and coercive, and that's not okay with me.

I'm PP @10:47 and one of the people you quoted.

Here's my thing: I don't think anybody is "entitled" to sex-on-demand at any time from any particular person. But we are entitled to have passionate intimacy in our lives. If you don't want passionate intimacy with me, that's OK - it's absolutely your body and your right to say no, married or not - but that doesn't entitle you to force me to be celibate - your control over your body doesn't trump my control over mine. I remain free to go seek out the passionate intimacy I want with someone else - sure, maybe after a divorce.

The huge problem with that "middle ground" is that's the passive aggressive "duty sex" zone: Oh, honey, you can't complain about not getting sex...I lubed up and bent over the bed for you to use my body as a masturbation aid for fifteen minutes last week...we're not due for this week's appointment yet. I'm not actually verbally saying no, but I'm letting you know you touching me makes my skin crawl. Thanks but no thanks...I'd rather pay a hooker for fake sex. I really don't want to have sex you unless you actually want to have sex with me and are turned on by me. I'm a big boy and have moved beyond jacking off to playboy...I'd rather have real sex with a real person.

A couple of things:

1. I was responding to specific posts, on any of the however many threads that are active about this topic right now, that specifically say that people (usually wives) should have sex more often than they want to and put their partner's need to have sex over their desire not to do that. I cannot get past the coercive nature of this. I have been in this situation, and I often felt pressured or coerced. I do not ever want to feel that way again. There are also specific posts saying that sex is a thing that is "owed" - not that sex is a crucial part of a healthy marriage, but that it is a thing that is owed in a particular quantity, and that a spouse who is unwilling to provide the sex in the quantity required is being selfish. I cannot get past the manipulation there either. There are other ways to frame these ideas than the language of coercion and manipulation. Posters on this topic on DCUM today have chosen the language of coercion and manipulation willfully and repeatedly. I don't know if any of them are you or not.

2. Yes, you can seek your sexual pleasure elsewhere in the name of body autonomy. I am entitled to decide that I do not want to be married to someone who has sex with other people, regardless of whether I am having sex with him as often or as enthusiastically as he would prefer.

3. The concept of being "entitled to passionate intimacy" is also hard for me to reconcile because "passionate intimacy" involves more than one person and I do not believe that anyone is entitled to the body of another. The language of entitlement (which is expressed often on this site in various ways) is problematic for me on a number of levels. You're not entitled to someone else's body. You're entitled to seek happiness in whatever manner pleases you, just like anyone else. If your search for happiness is not compatible with your spouse, I think it's best to divorce.

It's so incredibly clear you've never been the high drive partner and that you don't have kids or much money. Deciding to divorce is not that easy.

Good points. The other thing is: I haven't given up on my marriage entirely. I still hold out hope he will fall in love with me again or whatever romantic feelings he once had will come back. I actually do think I'm a good catch, and he did too once.

[Anonymous]

Infidelity is so much more complicated than the OP attempts to present.

- The cheating spouse is in the wrong for breaking their vow. There's absolutely no way around that. That doesn't mean that their needs are meaningless or less important than the other spouse and don't deserve to be addressed. They absolutely do. However the CS made a promise to be faithful and there are so many other options than cheating.

- The betrayed spouse may have some culpability. Perhaps they are too focused on work/kids/other and not in tune with their marriage or spouse. Maybe they aren't in touch with themselves well enough to understand that the reason they aren't interested in sex is because they aren't feeling aroused/connected/whatever to their spouse. Or, perhaps the spouse is perfect on paper and is simply married to a douchebag.

- The other person has a poor moral compass (assuming they are aware). While it's not their job to protect someone else's marriage, it's shady to knowingly pursue or bang a married person.

There are so many options on the spectrum of responsibility and morality wrt to infidelity...it's individual to each situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with this. I HAVE tried to figure it out, talk it through, etc. without success. Should I just outright beg him for intimacy? How many years without sex is reasonable? Yet I am not ready to give up on our marriage.

I'm the PP you quoted. I'm a DH (previously divorced over this issue, in part).

Begging is demeaning and highly counter-productive. I read a bunch of Gottman when I was going through my divorce, and I've come to the opinion (based on my marriage and a few LTRs which had issues around sex) that a lot of these disparities in sex drive aren't really disparities in libido where libido is understood to mean: how often, independently of your partner, do you get horny? Instead, they are a reflection of how much your partner themselves excites you and that is, generally to a stronger degree in women, strongly influenced by your emotional feelings towards them. The big killer in relationships is contempt, which is itself an extreme loss of respect. Begging pretty much cinches that: it's a kind of desperation. Men (and women) love the thrill of the chase; the high-value thing (person) is the thing not easily obtained. This is why "bad boy" jerks are supposedly so magnetic.

I'm convinced the answer - if any - is to make oneself independent, elusive and therefore the desired object again. I actually think flirting with other people and demonstrating that you are attractive to others - a little dose of jealousy - does wonders. But it's hard to titrate: in my ex-dw, this kind of situation merely ramped up her pre-existing insecurity, which made the bed inhibition worse.

I don't know how long - I think a couple of years, tops. I made it 5 years between when I started the divorce clock running and I was out. The first three were "how long" I waited to see if anything really changed. There were lots of instances of "the talk" and not exactly pleading, but expressing what it was I wanted and how I was feeling unfulfilled and how insulting and degrading "duty sex" was. And there were all the promises, and the jumpstart effort (for a week or two), and then backsliding. Three years of the threat->action->backslide->threat cycle. At which point, I decided it was over, and stopped with the threat. It took me two years to work out the best moment for my exit, getting our financial affairs more or less cleaned up, etc. She couldn't have been happier during this period: all our financial deets cleaned up, no expectations or demands for sex...really really happy when I stopped asking for anything in the relationship. That kind of confirmed it for me.

My feeling about all this - especially for all the "just figure out what is wrong with your marriage" types: just spit it out: you don't want to fuck us any longer. Don't play games - be an adult, own up and admit what you want/don't want and face the consequences. Sounds an awful lot like what they preach about cheaters, doesn't it?

I'm the PP you're responding to, and I can't thank you enough for your thoughtful words. It gives me plenty of food for thought and makes me feel less alone.

[Anonymous]

Let me revise: I just said I thought I was a "good catch," and I guess I mostly do think that on an objective level. But I feel so utterly unattractive usually, knowing that the person who sees the most of me on a daily basis doesn't want to touch me with a ten-foot pole. It can really be a mind fuck over time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me revise: I just said I thought I was a "good catch," and I guess I mostly do think that on an objective level. But I feel so utterly unattractive usually, knowing that the person who sees the most of me on a daily basis doesn't want to touch me with a ten-foot pole. It can really be a mind fuck over time.

DW here. I was there for years. The rejection and resultant feeling of unattractiveness is just awful. I am so sorry. After 8 years of it, I told DH that I was not going to continue in the relationship the way it was and I was going to start seeing a therapist to figure out what I wanted. He was very upset but after a couple of days offered to go to couples therapy. We have an amazing therapist and I am seeing my own therapist and I am struggling royally with all of they resentment and anger that has built up over the years. To his credit DH is trying what is probably his best but I don't know if I can get over how neglectful he was of my feelings and sexual needs. Sorry to share my sob story but just wanted to say that I can imagine how you are feeling and that I am so sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me revise: I just said I thought I was a "good catch," and I guess I mostly do think that on an objective level. But I feel so utterly unattractive usually, knowing that the person who sees the most of me on a daily basis doesn't want to touch me with a ten-foot pole. It can really be a mind fuck over time.

DW here. I was there for years. The rejection and resultant feeling of unattractiveness is just awful. I am so sorry. After 8 years of it, I told DH that I was not going to continue in the relationship the way it was and I was going to start seeing a therapist to figure out what I wanted. He was very upset but after a couple of days offered to go to couples therapy. We have an amazing therapist and I am seeing my own therapist and I am struggling royally with all of they resentment and anger that has built up over the years. To his credit DH is trying what is probably his best but I don't know if I can get over how neglectful he was of my feelings and sexual needs. Sorry to share my sob story but just wanted to say that I can imagine how you are feeling and that I am so sorry.

Thank you so much for sharing. Before this happened to me, I didn't have any idea how the resentment just compounds upon itself. So much anger and resentment, but of a kind that is not easy to talk about or discuss with others. So it's just this toxic, dark secret that doesn't stop growing. You are a strong and brave person to take the steps you are taking. Thanks again and good luck

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was responding to specific posts, on any of the however many threads that are active about this topic right now, that specifically say that people (usually wives) should have sex more often than they want to and put their partner's need to have sex over their desire not to do that. I cannot get past the coercive nature of this. I have been in this situation, and I often felt pressured or coerced. I do not ever want to feel that way again. There are also specific posts saying that sex is a thing that is "owed" - not that sex is a crucial part of a healthy marriage, but that it is a thing that is owed in a particular quantity, and that a spouse who is unwilling to provide the sex in the quantity required is being selfish. I cannot get past the manipulation there either. There are other ways to frame these ideas than the language of coercion and manipulation. Posters on this topic on DCUM today have chosen the language of coercion and manipulation willfully and repeatedly. I don't know if any of them are you or not.

I have 2 points/questions to make about this post:

1) You are saying however often the wife wants sex, regardless of how infrequent, that is it and anything beyond that level is pressure/coercion. What if the the couple (wisely) began having sex before marriage, established a mutually compatible frequency, which continues on into marriage and several years beyond. Then, many years down the road, perhaps after a few kids, the wife now decides that's just too much sex and suddenly she only "wants it" 1/10 as often. Is this reduction OK? Can I make a similar 90% reduction in how I meet one of your important needs?

2) Does this "only as often as I want it" extend to other needs too? For example, let's say that you (like many women) want to share details about your day with me.. pretty much every single day. But I (deep down) only want to "hear about your day" at most once per month. So are you cool with me putting on headphones each time you approach, except for the 1X per month when I really want to hear about it?

[Anonymous]

I'm not blaming anyone. I wouldn't expect, for instance, to continue investing in a business deal, where the principals agreed to one thing but didn't follow through or lied to get me to agree to it. On the other hand, I would probably leave a business deal where the principals hid material facts that affected sound decision making on an ongoing basis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me revise: I just said I thought I was a "good catch," and I guess I mostly do think that on an objective level. But I feel so utterly unattractive usually, knowing that the person who sees the most of me on a daily basis doesn't want to touch me with a ten-foot pole. It can really be a mind fuck over time.

DW here. I was there for years. The rejection and resultant feeling of unattractiveness is just awful. I am so sorry. After 8 years of it, I told DH that I was not going to continue in the relationship the way it was and I was going to start seeing a therapist to figure out what I wanted. He was very upset but after a couple of days offered to go to couples therapy. We have an amazing therapist and I am seeing my own therapist and I am struggling royally with all of they resentment and anger that has built up over the years. To his credit DH is trying what is probably his best but I don't know if I can get over how neglectful he was of my feelings and sexual needs. Sorry to share my sob story but just wanted to say that I can imagine how you are feeling and that I am so sorry.

Thank you so much for sharing. Before this happened to me, I didn't have any idea how the resentment just compounds upon itself. So much anger and resentment, but of a kind that is not easy to talk about or discuss with others. So it's just this toxic, dark secret that doesn't stop growing. You are a strong and brave person to take the steps you are taking. Thanks again and good luck

if you want to chat offline, i am happy to do so. it is a rough road, to say the least. let me know, i will set up an email account. hang in there...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it really sad that the ONLY issue mentioned as a marriage vow obligation is sex. What about kindness in general. Maybe if you treated each other with love and respect on a daily basis, sex would come naturally. I have been married 20 years now and as mentioned on this forum libidos go up and down but unless you have a beautiful relationship you aren't going to make it. I hear so much anger here and it has to go deeper than a simple need for sex or you never had much of a relationship in the first place. Good luck everyone. I hope you work it out.

I think you should re-read the thread. Many people have pointed out that "just leave/divorce if you want sex" is a facile and silly answer precisely because there is so much more to a marriage than just sex.

I have to agree with you that mutual kindness and respect are absolutely essential, and that the sex will die for sure if those aren't there. However, in an awful lot of instances, those qualities are there, and one partner just really isn't interested in sex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was responding to specific posts, on any of the however many threads that are active about this topic right now, that specifically say that people (usually wives) should have sex more often than they want to and put their partner's need to have sex over their desire not to do that. I cannot get past the coercive nature of this. I have been in this situation, and I often felt pressured or coerced. I do not ever want to feel that way again. There are also specific posts saying that sex is a thing that is "owed" - not that sex is a crucial part of a healthy marriage, but that it is a thing that is owed in a particular quantity, and that a spouse who is unwilling to provide the sex in the quantity required is being selfish. I cannot get past the manipulation there either. There are other ways to frame these ideas than the language of coercion and manipulation. Posters on this topic on DCUM today have chosen the language of coercion and manipulation willfully and repeatedly. I don't know if any of them are you or not.

I have 2 points/questions to make about this post:

1) You are saying however often the wife wants sex, regardless of how infrequent, that is it and anything beyond that level is pressure/coercion. What if the the couple (wisely) began having sex before marriage, established a mutually compatible frequency, which continues on into marriage and several years beyond. Then, many years down the road, perhaps after a few kids, the wife now decides that's just too much sex and suddenly she only "wants it" 1/10 as often. Is this reduction OK? Can I make a similar 90% reduction in how I meet one of your important needs?

2) Does this "only as often as I want it" extend to other needs too? For example, let's say that you (like many women) want to share details about your day with me.. pretty much every single day. But I (deep down) only want to "hear about your day" at most once per month. So are you cool with me putting on headphones each time you approach, except for the 1X per month when I really want to hear about it?

I'm the PP. My point, which I have apparently been making unsuccessfully, is that sex is different than the other things you describe. I am not saying that it's not emotionally manipulative to withhold sex (though in most cases it seems like it's not "withholding" in a spiteful way but simply not being interested in it at all). What I'm saying is that coercing another person to have sex in other contexts is actually criminal. It would be great if every marriage involved two people who really enjoyed having sex with each other and did it regularly, such that lukewarm sex was rare and everyone was having their needs met. In the absence of that, I admit that I prioritize "not being sexually coercive or manipulative" over "not being emotionally coercive or manipulative." I understand that people do not agree with that, but since I'm not married to them, I don't actually care about that all that much, because at the end of the day, how any individual feels about sex is only really relevant to them and the person they're having sex with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me revise: I just said I thought I was a "good catch," and I guess I mostly do think that on an objective level. But I feel so utterly unattractive usually, knowing that the person who sees the most of me on a daily basis doesn't want to touch me with a ten-foot pole. It can really be a mind fuck over time.

DW here. I was there for years. The rejection and resultant feeling of unattractiveness is just awful. I am so sorry. After 8 years of it, I told DH that I was not going to continue in the relationship the way it was and I was going to start seeing a therapist to figure out what I wanted. He was very upset but after a couple of days offered to go to couples therapy. We have an amazing therapist and I am seeing my own therapist and I am struggling royally with all of they resentment and anger that has built up over the years. To his credit DH is trying what is probably his best but I don't know if I can get over how neglectful he was of my feelings and sexual needs. Sorry to share my sob story but just wanted to say that I can imagine how you are feeling and that I am so sorry.

You put up with it for 8 years?!