Arghh MCPS Math!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No, if you're going to compare the performance of middle-class students in China and India and Eastern Europe to students in the US, then you'll have to compare it to middle-class students in the US (or middle-class students in MCPS) -- not all students.

MCPS would still lag behind. And this is inspite of the fact that what passes for middle class in these countries would qualify as the poorest of the population of Montgomery County.

If we compare the middle class students with the middle class students here. Hand's down these other nations would win. However, this being a free nation and all, this is entirely your choice what kind of advantages you want to give to your children.

I see the same faces - at the prep classes, at the magnet orientation meetings at school or college orientation meetings, at awards ceremonies, at state level scholastic meets, STEM competitions...faces of immigrants from these countries.


How do you know this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, if you're going to compare the performance of middle-class students in China and India and Eastern Europe to students in the US, then you'll have to compare it to middle-class students in the US (or middle-class students in MCPS) -- not all students.

Ummm...sure. Are we allowed to remove from the mix of US students those whose parents are immigrants from the countries we are comparing them to? How about removing the East Europeans and Asian lineage kids - who are supplementing here too?

No, of course not. They are not going to school in their countries of family origin. They are going to school in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, if you're going to compare the performance of middle-class students in China and India and Eastern Europe to students in the US, then you'll have to compare it to middle-class students in the US (or middle-class students in MCPS) -- not all students.

Ummm...sure. Are we allowed to remove from the mix of US students those whose parents are immigrants from the countries we are comparing them to? How about removing the East Europeans and Asian lineage kids - who are supplementing here too?

No, of course not. They are not going to school in their countries of family origin. They are going to school in the US.

...but families are supplementing here because they find MCPS lacking. So, there is a parallel system of education here where East Europeans, Chinese and Indian kids supplement at home and MCPS actually pretends that they are the reason these kids do well.

Unless, you believe that these kids are truly gifted as a race and have superior brain-power to all the other kids in the US?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, if you're going to compare the performance of middle-class students in China and India and Eastern Europe to students in the US, then you'll have to compare it to middle-class students in the US (or middle-class students in MCPS) -- not all students.

Ummm...sure. Are we allowed to remove from the mix of US students those whose parents are immigrants from the countries we are comparing them to? How about removing the East Europeans and Asian lineage kids - who are supplementing here too?

No, of course not. They are not going to school in their countries of family origin. They are going to school in the US.

...but families are supplementing here because they find MCPS lacking. So, there is a parallel system of education here where East Europeans, Chinese and Indian kids supplement at home and MCPS actually pretends that they are the reason these kids do well.

Unless, you believe that these kids are truly gifted as a race and have superior brain-power to all the other kids in the US?

What, exactly, are we arguing about?

My questions were:

1. Which Asian countries are outperforming the US?
2. What measures are you using to determine this?

I don't think anybody has answered these questions yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes. US has been lagging prior to 2.0 and we were supplementing before that. My response was basically that if you are unhappy with MCPS math then you supplement at home.

I am in no way and shape saying that I am comparing the Math achievement of all students in China and India and Eastern Europe with American kids. I am comparing the performance of the middle class students of these countries to the US students. Considering how humongous their middle class population is, they will have a significant impact on the global market for white collar jobs.

Let's take the scores of only MCPS (the best school district) and we can see how very dismal the showing is. What is the failure rate on Algebra 2 exams?

No, if you're going to compare the performance of middle-class students in China and India and Eastern Europe to students in the US, then you'll have to compare it to middle-class students in the US (or middle-class students in MCPS) -- not all students.

MCPS would still lag behind. And this is inspite of the fact that what passes for middle class in these countries would qualify as the poorest of the population of Montgomery County.

If we compare the middle class students with the middle class students here. Hand's down these other nations would win. However, this being a free nation and all, this is entirely your choice what kind of advantages you want to give to your children.

I see the same faces - at the prep classes, at the magnet orientation meetings at school or college orientation meetings, at awards ceremonies, at state level scholastic meets, STEM competitions...faces of immigrants from these countries.

In my DC's HGC orientation, it was majority Caucasian faces. I didn't speak to every single one, so I can't tell if they were European, Canadian, or Australian immigrants. But, I do know that the Caucasian friends that my DC has in HGC are not immigrants. There are only a handful of Asians, and maybe a couple of Black/Hispanics. So, in my neck of the woods, I don't think we have *that* many immigrant parents, but I really can't tell. Let me guess.. you are in a W cluster.

I do agree, that in this country, more parents, especially the underclass should value education more. And I do agree, that in those high performing Asian countries, it is *much* more competitive to get into a good university which then sets you up for a better job. And this is largely the reason why kids study so hard. But, these same countries also have a much higher suicide rate amongst teens. I know some Koreans that don't want their kids educated in Korea because of the pressure and the stress it causes.

Thankfully, in this country, you can go to a no-name university and still get a good job and live a comfortable life. I am not convinced that the future will be so different that unless you go to a top university, you won't be able to live a comfortable life. So, yes, I'm happy to have my kids not be in such a pressure cooker and have mental well-being.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, if you're going to compare the performance of middle-class students in China and India and Eastern Europe to students in the US, then you'll have to compare it to middle-class students in the US (or middle-class students in MCPS) -- not all students.

Ummm...sure. Are we allowed to remove from the mix of US students those whose parents are immigrants from the countries we are comparing them to? How about removing the East Europeans and Asian lineage kids - who are supplementing here too?

No, of course not. They are not going to school in their countries of family origin. They are going to school in the US.

...but families are supplementing here because they find MCPS lacking. So, there is a parallel system of education here where East Europeans, Chinese and Indian kids supplement at home and MCPS actually pretends that they are the reason these kids do well.

Unless, you believe that these kids are truly gifted as a race and have superior brain-power to all the other kids in the US?

What, exactly, are we arguing about?

My questions were:

1. Which Asian countries are outperforming the US?
2. What measures are you using to determine this?

I don't think anybody has answered these questions yet.

Not PP. They are talking about the PISA tests. The Asian countries that outperformed the US were Korea and Japan, and I think a few others. China didn't outperform the US because they only submitted test scores for Hong Kong and Shanghai - two of the most richest cities in China. China, as a country, didn't rank at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That "lagging Asian countries" red flag has been waving for 30 years, meanwhile the US consistently has the most steady economy, has the highest advances in science and technology.

It's a drum beat scare tactic that is not true.

I've been in high tech development for 40 years and have also taught at engineering universities, you do get a wave like the outsourcing to India or even Japan, but it always comes back. I have been around many Asian students, and they do well because they cluster up, study constantly and are very exclusionary. Part of the problem was the language barrier, part of it was they just don't like Americans very much.

Guess what, they don't get the high paying jobs. They have no creativity, they are afraid of any original ideas and rarely become lead designers or architects.

First generation Asian-Americans assimilate very quickly and are just like their American counterparts.

The math in MCPS is ridiculous, we don't need some nebulous Asian standard, we set the standard and need to work on doing better than we did yesterday, not sliding back whole grade levels in instruction.

Great post. Asians are amazing in school, but I see the same in the workforce.

[Anonymous]

Ummm...sure. Are we allowed to remove from the mix of US students those whose parents are immigrants from the countries we are comparing them to? How about removing the East Europeans and Asian lineage kids - who are supplementing here too?

Only if we can remove the immigrants from Eastern Europe and the United Kingdom. Unlike the former groups, Africans did not immigrate to the new world. If the survived the journey, they came in shackles under knife, stick, and muzzle until recently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP. They are talking about the PISA tests. The Asian countries that outperformed the US were Korea and Japan, and I think a few others. China didn't outperform the US because they only submitted test scores for Hong Kong and Shanghai - two of the most richest cities in China. China, as a country, didn't rank at all.

Macau was omitted on that list of high performing Asian "countries". How come the OECD allowed China to only submit those three cities?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That "lagging Asian countries" red flag has been waving for 30 years, meanwhile the US consistently has the most steady economy, has the highest advances in science and technology.

It's a drum beat scare tactic that is not true.

I've been in high tech development for 40 years and have also taught at engineering universities, you do get a wave like the outsourcing to India or even Japan, but it always comes back. I have been around many Asian students, and they do well because they cluster up, study constantly and are very exclusionary. Part of the problem was the language barrier, part of it was they just don't like Americans very much.

Guess what, they don't get the high paying jobs. They have no creativity, they are afraid of any original ideas and rarely become lead designers or architects.

First generation Asian-Americans assimilate very quickly and are just like their American counterparts.

The math in MCPS is ridiculous, we don't need some nebulous Asian standard, we set the standard and need to work on doing better than we did yesterday, not sliding back whole grade levels in instruction.

Great post. Asians are amazing in school, but I see the same in the workforce.

Iif you give it another 50 yrs, you'll see more Asians in those types of jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes. US has been lagging prior to 2.0 and we were supplementing before that. My response was basically that if you are unhappy with MCPS math then you supplement at home.

I am in no way and shape saying that I am comparing the Math achievement of all students in China and India and Eastern Europe with American kids. I am comparing the performance of the middle class students of these countries to the US students. Considering how humongous their middle class population is, they will have a significant impact on the global market for white collar jobs.

Let's take the scores of only MCPS (the best school district) and we can see how very dismal the showing is. What is the failure rate on Algebra 2 exams?

No, if you're going to compare the performance of middle-class students in China and India and Eastern Europe to students in the US, then you'll have to compare it to middle-class students in the US (or middle-class students in MCPS) -- not all students.

MCPS would still lag behind. And this is inspite of the fact that what passes for middle class in these countries would qualify as the poorest of the population of Montgomery County.

If we compare the middle class students with the middle class students here. Hand's down these other nations would win. However, this being a free nation and all, this is entirely your choice what kind of advantages you want to give to your children.

I see the same faces - at the prep classes, at the magnet orientation meetings at school or college orientation meetings, at awards ceremonies, at state level scholastic meets, STEM competitions...faces of immigrants from these countries.

In my DC's HGC orientation, it was majority Caucasian faces. I didn't speak to every single one, so I can't tell if they were European, Canadian, or Australian immigrants. But, I do know that the Caucasian friends that my DC has in HGC are not immigrants. There are only a handful of Asians, and maybe a couple of Black/Hispanics. So, in my neck of the woods, I don't think we have *that* many immigrant parents, but I really can't tell. Let me guess.. you are in a W cluster.

I do agree, that in this country, more parents, especially the underclass should value education more. And I do agree, that in those high performing Asian countries, it is *much* more competitive to get into a good university which then sets you up for a better job. And this is largely the reason why kids study so hard. But, these same countries also have a much higher suicide rate amongst teens. I know some Koreans that don't want their kids educated in Korea because of the pressure and the stress it causes.

Thankfully, in this country, you can go to a no-name university and still get a good job and live a comfortable life. I am not convinced that the future will be so different that unless you go to a top university, you won't be able to live a comfortable life. So, yes, I'm happy to have my kids not be in such a pressure cooker and have mental well-being.

I don't think my kids feel that they are in a pressure cooker environment regarding studies. It is just the discipline of studying (a little more than just doing your homework) every day, consistently and daily.

Financial security, intact marriages, stable and loving home environment, social support system and network - all these also play a large part in the mental well-being of a child too, and have a direct impact on their ability to learn and do well at school.

[Anonymous]

Let's agree to disagree.

I feel MCPS Math sucks, so I supplement. Does it place a larger burden on me than my kids? Sure. Because I have to prepare the work for them and supervise. They are done in half hour, where as it took me more than that to prepare and teach.

Others think that MCPS is doing a great job. They have a right to feel that way and do what they think is best for their household and kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That "lagging Asian countries" red flag has been waving for 30 years, meanwhile the US consistently has the most steady economy, has the highest advances in science and technology.

It's a drum beat scare tactic that is not true.

I've been in high tech development for 40 years and have also taught at engineering universities, you do get a wave like the outsourcing to India or even Japan, but it always comes back. I have been around many Asian students, and they do well because they cluster up, study constantly and are very exclusionary. Part of the problem was the language barrier, part of it was they just don't like Americans very much.

Guess what, they don't get the high paying jobs. They have no creativity, they are afraid of any original ideas and rarely become lead designers or architects.

First generation Asian-Americans assimilate very quickly and are just like their American counterparts.

The math in MCPS is ridiculous, we don't need some nebulous Asian standard, we set the standard and need to work on doing better than we did yesterday, not sliding back whole grade levels in instruction.

Great post. Asians are amazing in school, but I see the same in the workforce.

If you give it another 50 yrs, you'll see more Asians in those types of jobs.

+1

First gen Asian-Americans have been given the leg up by their parents. They are a testament to their parents hard work. Sure it seems that they are more assimilated because their accent is americanized and they outwardly have a more westernized appearance - but their brilliance at their work has come about from their parents sacrifice. And most have also got financial help from their parents = so the wealth has been accumulated.

As more Asian-Americans are given the opportunities, they are opening the doors for others that come after them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That "lagging Asian countries" red flag has been waving for 30 years, meanwhile the US consistently has the most steady economy, has the highest advances in science and technology.

It's a drum beat scare tactic that is not true.

I've been in high tech development for 40 years and have also taught at engineering universities, you do get a wave like the outsourcing to India or even Japan, but it always comes back. I have been around many Asian students, and they do well because they cluster up, study constantly and are very exclusionary. Part of the problem was the language barrier, part of it was they just don't like Americans very much.

Guess what, they don't get the high paying jobs. They have no creativity, they are afraid of any original ideas and rarely become lead designers or architects.

First generation Asian-Americans assimilate very quickly and are just like their American counterparts.

The math in MCPS is ridiculous, we don't need some nebulous Asian standard, we set the standard and need to work on doing better than we did yesterday, not sliding back whole grade levels in instruction.

Great post. Asians are amazing in school, but I see the same in the workforce.

If you give it another 50 yrs, you'll see more Asians in those types of jobs.

+1

First gen Asian-Americans have been given the leg up by their parents. They are a testament to their parents hard work. Sure it seems that they are more assimilated because their accent is americanized and they outwardly have a more westernized appearance - but their brilliance at their work has come about from their parents sacrifice. And most have also got financial help from their parents = so the wealth has been accumulated.

As more Asian-Americans are given the opportunities, they are opening the doors for others that come after them.

I'm the PP that made the "in 50 yrs comment". I don't think the future generation Asian American success in those types of jobs can only be attributed to the parents' sacrifices. It is more cultural. By and large, in the Asian culture, you don't question authority. That means you don't question the professors, the leaders of the company or your superiors. This is the reason why most Asians don't do well in those types of jobs. You see more Asian Americans be more successful in those types of jobs because they grew up with the some of the American attitudes of being open and questioning authority.

They suspect that it was this Asian type of culture that caused the Asiana crash in SF, which was a Korean airline. They suspect that the copilot new something was wrong but didn't want to question the pilot who was his superior.

But, I think even those Asian countries are starting to change their culture, ever so slowly. So, who knows.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm the PP that made the "in 50 yrs comment". I don't think the future generation Asian American success in those types of jobs can only be attributed to the parents' sacrifices. It is more cultural. By and large, in the Asian culture, you don't question authority. That means you don't question the professors, the leaders of the company or your superiors. This is the reason why most Asians don't do well in those types of jobs. You see more Asian Americans be more successful in those types of jobs because they grew up with the some of the American attitudes of being open and questioning authority.

They suspect that it was this Asian type of culture that caused the Asiana crash in SF, which was a Korean airline. They suspect that the copilot knew something was wrong but didn't want to question the pilot who was his superior.

But, I think even those Asian countries are starting to change their culture, ever so slowly. So, who knows.

Inefficient and incompetent people are everywhere. How many times we look at upper management at work and wonder who put these idiots in power? Look around you, there is not a single agency where people are not incompetent, lazy and inefficient.

I mean we are on this forum discussing MCPS policies and Starr and BOE and curriculum ...and not a single Korean, Chinese or Indian was in position of power here. So, its a worldwide phenomenon.