war in Gaza

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find this thread littered with hatred for Jews.

It would be intresting to see how you all feel about the Bosnian genocide, the armenian genocide, what happened in Somalia....I realize this is being discussed because it's recent but ask yourself if you'd be as vested or upset if this involved brazil and argentina..or some other non-jewish country.

Sorry, don't buy it. This is a cop out, and it's meant to silence discourse. I'm sick of seeing this and hearing this any time someone criticizes Israeli policy. Criticism of a nation's policies does not equal hatred of a religious group, ethnicity, or race.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I find this thread littered with hatred for Jews.

It would be intresting to see how you all feel about the Bosnian genocide, the armenian genocide, what happened in Somalia....I realize this is being discussed because it's recent but ask yourself if you'd be as vested or upset if this involved brazil and argentina..or some other non-jewish country.

Speaking for myself, I was not around to protest the Armenian genocide. I opposed Serbian actions in Bosnia and I note that many Serbs are now in the Hague serving time for war crimes. I opposed the US invasion of Iraq. Strangely, I was never accused of hating Americans.

According to the UN, Israel has killed 257 Palestinian children during this offensive. Is that something that you support? If the children were Bosnian being killed by Serbs, would you feel differently?

[Anonymous]

For some reason, the image of Palestinian women and children dancing in the streets on 9-11 comes to my mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For some reason, the image of Palestinian women and children dancing in the streets on 9-11 comes to my mind.

Really? That's your response to 200+ children dead? Have you seen any of the pictures? Do you have the guts to look? Because this one - http://ingaza.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/img_3428.jpg - she reminds me of my daughter. I'm still having nightmares about the kids who were found starving, huddled next to their dead mothers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If the US public were viewing nightly news telecasts of massive groups of unarmed PEACEFULLY protesting Palestinians (perhaps standing in front of settlement construction equipment) being set upon with firehoses and dogs---public perception of the Palestinian question would change. As it is, public sympathy for the Palestinians' justifiable outrage over continuing settlement encroachment (among other grievances) is undermined by suicide bombers and random rocket fire meant to terrorize.

OP here. I understand this point - this is in part what I was referring to when I said that Hamas isn't blameless. I know that (much smaller numbers of) innocent Israelis get killed unjustly and I think that is awful too. However, I do think that some allowance needs to be made for the appalling conditions that Palestinians are kept in. In 2008, the BBC reported that conditions inside Gaza were nothing short of a total humanitarian disaster - literally the worst since Israeli occupation began in 1967. Just today, a top Vatican official commented that the conditions in Gaza were like a concentration camp for the Palestinians. How long can people be expected to be imprisoned in absolute squalor without fighting back?

The vatican, huh. Pretty ironic since they protected Nazis and helped them escape after the war.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For some reason, the image of Palestinian women and children dancing in the streets on 9-11 comes to my mind.

Really? That's your response to 200+ children dead? Have you seen any of the pictures? Do you have the guts to look? Because this one - http://ingaza.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/img_3428.jpg - she reminds me of my daughter. I'm still having nightmares about the kids who were found starving, huddled next to their dead mothers.

Look, I am not at all saying that it's right to kill innocent children and women. So, dont even start barking up that tree.
What I was saying is that there is a huge difference in the attitude of Americans vs those in the Middle east. They have grown up around violence all their lives. It is nothing new to them. We simply cannot relate to their way of life because there is no comparison. I am not saying that it is right or that we shouldn't give a shit about what's going on. But, you would never see American women and children dancing in the street over this.
Before you start trying to figure it out and make it so tragic-Which, YES it is. They do not have the same value on life as we do here. Clearly that is supported by their response to 9-11.

[Anonymous]

The vatican, huh. Pretty ironic since they protected Nazis and helped them escape after the war.

First of all, though I'm not the biggest defender of the Catholic church, your assertion is a pretty controversial hypothesis that historians don't agree on, so let's not pass it off as conventional wisdom. In fact, there are some scholars - including Israeli rabbinical scholars- that estimate that the Catholic church did more to help Jews escape the Nazi regime than all the Jewish relief organizations combined.

Secondly, even taking your statement at face value, what does it actually mean? Does it mean that the modern Catholic church has no standing to speak out on the plight of Palestinians now? Does it mean Vatincan officials are inherently unable to judge the conditions in Gaza? (Jimmy Carter also described conditions in Palestine in pretty much the same terms, by the way.) Or that all Vatican officials are anti-Semitic by nature? I don't get your argument at all.

[Anonymous]

If you're confused by my statement, go back and re-read it. I said it was "ironic", no argument. You're the one that's pretty argumentative today which seems a little out of character for you. Is everything alright at home?

[Anonymous]

If you're confused by my statement, go back and re-read it. I said it was "ironic", no argument. You're the one that's pretty argumentative today which seems a little out of character for you. Is everything alright at home?

In other words, you have no point. Got it.

[Anonymous]

You need a day off, huh? A nice relaxing day. Go get a massage, you deserve one! It's not healthy to hold so much anger inside. This gaza strip issue isn't going to be solved by either of us and clearly it's not as cut and dry as you try to say it is. I wish you a happy, calm day/evening! Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Here is a Q&A:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7818022.stm

[Anonymous]

You need a day off, huh? A nice relaxing day. Go get a massage, you deserve one! It's not healthy to hold so much anger inside. This gaza strip issue isn't going to be solved by either of us and clearly it's not as cut and dry as you try to say it is. I wish you a happy, calm day/evening! Good luck!

I'll make you a deal. I will (happily) go get a massage, because I DO deserve one, if you learn how to not speak to other adults as if they were your children. Deal?

I'm not sure any poster on this thread has said that Gaza is a cut and dry issue, and particularly not me because I understand full well the complexity of it. I'm not sure which message indicated to you that somebody thought it was a simple issue...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You need a day off, huh? A nice relaxing day. Go get a massage, you deserve one! It's not healthy to hold so much anger inside. This gaza strip issue isn't going to be solved by either of us and clearly it's not as cut and dry as you try to say it is. I wish you a happy, calm day/evening! Good luck!

I'll make you a deal. I will (happily) go get a massage, because I DO deserve one, if you learn how to not speak to other adults as if they were your children. Deal?

I'm not sure any poster on this thread has said that Gaza is a cut and dry issue, and particularly not me because I understand full well the complexity of it. I'm not sure which message indicated to you that somebody thought it was a simple issue...

Soon, the all caps will be breaking out. You're going to get all Kanye on us, aren't you?

How did I speak to you like you were my child? Did I call you "Honey" or "Cutie pie"? I didn't think so.

[Anonymous]

What I was saying is that there is a huge difference in the attitude of Americans vs those in the Middle east. They have grown up around violence all their lives. It is nothing new to them. We simply cannot relate to their way of life because there is no comparison.

New poster here, with a question for the PP who made the statement above. How do you know this? Have you spent a lot of time in the Middle East? Speak Arabic or Persian? Just curious....because as someone who can answer yes to the previous two questions, I would disagree entirely with your perception of the attitude of people in the region toward life and death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For some reason, the image of Palestinian women and children dancing in the streets on 9-11 comes to my mind.

Really? That's your response to 200+ children dead? Have you seen any of the pictures? Do you have the guts to look? Because this one - http://ingaza.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/img_3428.jpg - she reminds me of my daughter. I'm still having nightmares about the kids who were found starving, huddled next to their dead mothers.

Look, I am not at all saying that it's right to kill innocent children and women. So, dont even start barking up that tree.
What I was saying is that there is a huge difference in the attitude of Americans vs those in the Middle east. They have grown up around violence all their lives. It is nothing new to them. We simply cannot relate to their way of life because there is no comparison. I am not saying that it is right or that we shouldn't give a shit about what's going on. But, you would never see American women and children dancing in the street over this.
Before you start trying to figure it out and make it so tragic-Which, YES it is. They do not have the same value on life as we do here. Clearly that is supported by their response to 9-11.

You sound like PW Botha, with that "they".
Civil rights are NOT a privilege, they are a right. They don't have to be "good" Arabs to get what everyone wants.
There are violent neighborhoods in this country, those circumstances don't justify sanctions.