war in Gaza

[Anonymous]

I do believe that Israelis have trouble valuing the lives of non-Jews. I also believe that until they learn to value all lives equally, this mess will never end.

Israel has taken advantage of Palestinian's disorganized society, to make them look like fools.
Palestinians have done a poor job of articulating their plight, and that is partly their fault, but not entirely.
To the pp who mentioned peaceful protest, that stuff works where there is free press. There have been peaceful protests, that have been followed by bullets from Israel. The media never gets that on film because Israel won't allow it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I agree that Hamas should not have been sending rockets into Israel and I understand the fear and the uneasiness of the Israelis living near Gaza. But dropping bombs on Palestinian civilians who are unable to run away from the battlefield (because there is nowhere to run) is not going to solve Israel's problem. This will make things worse for Israel. They should have relaxed the economic blockade first.

I agree completely will this. In fact, many of the spikes in support for Hamas have been a result of things like, for example, when Hamas was able to break a hole in the wall along the Egyptian border so that people could stock up on basic necessities that they hadn't been able to get because of the Israeli siege. (The fact that the Bush administration has so staunchly pushed for Abbas, et. al. has helped Hamas too!) I think there is a lot of data to suggest that the majority of Palestinians are going to vote for who can make their lives easier, not who is going to kill the most Israelis. In the 2006 elections, they thought it was time to give Hamas a try after Fatah squandered the few resources Palestine had through corruption and incompetence.

The blockade was imposed so Hamas can not smuggle weapons into Gazza. Luckily, Hamas doesn't have access to advanced weaponry, otherwise we would see so many more civilians dead.
Grad rockets that are being launched into Israel are very primitive-they can not be aimed well. Imagine what can happen if the blockade is removed and Hamas is able to bring in chemical weapons or higher range rockets?

Please note that blockade was originally imposed due to Hamas firing rockets on Israeli civilians. West Bank is not under an economic blockade, because they do not launch rockets at Israel.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Please note that blockade was originally imposed due to Hamas firing rockets on Israeli civilians. West Bank is not under an economic blockade, because they do not launch rockets at Israel.

You are incorrect. The embargo was placed on Gaza after Hamas kicked out Fateh. Hamas legitimately won the election, but neither Israel nor the United States recognized their victory. When Fateh refused to give up power that legally belonged to Hamas, Hamas took over by force and expelled Fatah fighters. Israel reacted by placing an embargo on Gaza.

Since most goods entering Gaza arrive via Israel, it is easy for Israel to control the type of goods entering the territory. There is no reason to prevent food deliveries because of an imagined threat of chemical weapons. You act like Gaza would have the ability to freely import weapons from North Korea or Eastern Europe. What is the chance of either Egypt or Israel allowing the transport of such weapons across their territories? The embargo is simply collective punishment. No more, no less.

Also, while the West Bank is not under an economic embargo, you fail to mention that it is under a military occupation and subject to the continued expansion of illegal Israeli settlements. The continued expansion is likely to trigger future unrest in the West Bank just as the embargo caused the current problems in Gaza.

[Anonymous]

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat, said: "I ask any of my colleagues to imagine that happening here in the United States. Rockets and mortars coming from Toronto in Canada, into Buffalo New York – how would we as a country react?" Co-sponsor and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican also remarked: "The Israelis ... are responding exactly the same way we would."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, it scares me. My husband is Jewish, and we are thinking of raising our kids Jewish, but this one issue, namely the Israel lobby and Israeli politics makes me wonder. I 'm not sure that I want my kids to be a part of that mess.

Please raise your children in your religion of choice. Don't let Israeli politics and actions dictate that. I'm saying this as someone who is very pro-Arab by the way. Very pro-Arab. But Judaism rocks. What's happening in the middle east is extraordinarily complex and has no easy solution. Teach your children to respect human life and different religions, just as I am doing. Sadly, I think it will take generations to realize anything good, though.

I completely agree with this. We cannot begin to try and figure out the right or wrong way to "fix" this war. This has been going on thousands of years. Many Americans cannot relate to the feelings the isrealis/palestenians have because we've never had to be in a situation like this. It's easy to point fingers and take a side, but this goes a lot deeper than whats been posted here.

To the poster who asked why the USA always sides with Isreal? The easiest and probably the most controversial answer is that it is biblical. And no matter if you like it or not, our countries leaders are influenced a lot by what the bible says.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat, said: "I ask any of my colleagues to imagine that happening here in the United States. Rockets and mortars coming from Toronto in Canada, into Buffalo New York – how would we as a country react?" Co-sponsor and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican also remarked: "The Israelis ... are responding exactly the same way we would."

American politicians are cowards. Spend some time browsing the international press and you will get a sense just how isolated the US is on this issue. There are huge protests in London. There is even more opposition to the war in Israel then you will find in the US Congress. Watch this clip from Canadian TV to get a sense of things perpetrated by the Israeli military. Note, this event took place in Bethlehem, which is peaceful compared to Gaza. An innocent mother is killed, children terrorized, and an Israeli soldier suggests they are conducting "purification". I wonder if he understands the irony of that statement?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJaPZLNLBu8&eurl=http://www.juancole.com/&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, it scares me. My husband is Jewish, and we are thinking of raising our kids Jewish, but this one issue, namely the Israel lobby and Israeli politics makes me wonder. I 'm not sure that I want my kids to be a part of that mess.

Please raise your children in your religion of choice. Don't let Israeli politics and actions dictate that. I'm saying this as someone who is very pro-Arab by the way. Very pro-Arab. But Judaism rocks. What's happening in the middle east is extraordinarily complex and has no easy solution. Teach your children to respect human life and different religions, just as I am doing. Sadly, I think it will take generations to realize anything good, though.

I completely agree with this. We cannot begin to try and figure out the right or wrong way to "fix" this war. This has been going on thousands of years. Many Americans cannot relate to the feelings the isrealis/palestenians have because we've never had to be in a situation like this. It's easy to point fingers and take a side, but this goes a lot deeper than whats been posted here.

To the poster who asked why the USA always sides with Isreal? The easiest and probably the most controversial answer is that it is biblical. And no matter if you like it or not, our countries leaders are influenced a lot by what the bible says.

Please remember, this is why WE separate church from state. Much of what is in the Bible makes no sense to many people, and is not applicable to today's circumstances.
We should be careful not to get sucked into these Biblical issues. I have more faith in our founding fathers than I have in some vague Moses, or and Angel, or Jesus. I have more information about the psyche, motivation, and lives of Madison and Washington than I do about Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed.
If we can show that our foreign policy decisions were motivated by the Bible, then that would be a violation of our constitution, wouldn't it?

[Anonymous]

Pp, I realize what you're saying. I was just saying why the US backs isreal. Right or wrong, the reason is mainly because it says in the bible to do so.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:... An innocent mother is killed, children terrorized, and an Israeli soldier suggests they are conducting "purification". I wonder if he understands the irony of that statement?

It seemed to me that the soldier in question (who called the operation "dirty") used the word "purification" as an intentional criticism. I suspect he and the Israeli TV station that aired the tape are part of the opposition to this kind of action. Unfortunately, many Israelis think their only choice is to have the sympathy of the world as their nation is destroyed or to have the disapproval of the world while they do what they think is necessary to protect themselves.

I am not trying to defend their policy, which I find repugnant, but to understand what motivates it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:... An innocent mother is killed, children terrorized, and an Israeli soldier suggests they are conducting "purification". I wonder if he understands the irony of that statement?

It seemed to me that the soldier in question (who called the operation "dirty") used the word "purification" as an intentional criticism. I suspect he and the Israeli TV station that aired the tape are part of the opposition to this kind of action. Unfortunately, many Israelis think their only choice is to have the sympathy of the world as their nation is destroyed or to have the disapproval of the world while they do what they think is necessary to protect themselves.

I am not trying to defend their policy, which I find repugnant, but to understand what motivates it.

I don't understand the motivation. If people (Palestinians) are fighting you Israel because their basic human rights have been violated, , then Israel should be motivated to change its policy and stop violating Palestinian rights.

BTW, to the pp that mentioned that this is not happening on the West Bank because they seem to behaving, well...that reminds me of attitudes during apartheid, if the Blacks (or Blecks) would only behave themselves, then we wouldn't have to shoot at them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: We cannot begin to try and figure out the right or wrong way to "fix" this war. This has been going on thousands of years. Many Americans cannot relate to the feelings the isrealis/palestenians have because we've never had to be in a situation like this. It's easy to point fingers and take a side, but this goes a lot deeper than whats been posted here.

I know you're trying to emphasize the complexity of this and the depth of the feelings involved but the "thousands of years old conflict" is a myth. This particular conflict has be going on for 60 years, maybe 100, if you want to stretch it a bit. There is a way in which characterizing the conflict as one thousands of years old encourages Americans to just throw up their hands and say nothing can be done because it has been going on forever.

On another note, it also obscures the fact that it is European anti-Semitism that led to the Holocaust (which gave momentum to the movement to create Israel as a safe haven for Jews) -- along with help from the rest of the world, including the United States as we refused to give refuge to European Jews in the 30s when they were desperately trying to get out of Europe. As well, for hundreds of years it was Christian Europe which had the most vicious policies aimed at Jews. While Muslim countries did not treat Jews and Christians as equals, they were not persecuted at the same level that we have seen historically in European nations. Not that that forgives any anti-Semitism we see today in Muslim countries (and believe me, there is plenty) but it's important to realize that characterizing this primarily as an age-old Muslim-Jewish conflict is not accurate.

As well, with regard to the discussion of religion, religion is an element in the conflict but it is primarily a political conflict about land that is exacerbated by religion and ethnicity. Remember, a segment of the Palestinian population is Christian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:... I don't understand the motivation. If people (Palestinians) are fighting you Israel because their basic human rights have been violated, then Israel should be motivated to change its policy and stop violating Palestinian rights. ...

True. But since many Palestinians are also fighting because they think Israel has no right to exist as a country, the situation is a bit more complex.

[Anonymous]

I find this thread littered with hatred for Jews.

It would be intresting to see how you all feel about the Bosnian genocide, the armenian genocide, what happened in Somalia....I realize this is being discussed because it's recent but ask yourself if you'd be as vested or upset if this involved brazil and argentina..or some other non-jewish country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:... I don't understand the motivation. If people (Palestinians) are fighting you Israel because their basic human rights have been violated, then Israel should be motivated to change its policy and stop violating Palestinian rights. ...

True. But since many Palestinians are also fighting because they think Israel has no right to exist as a country, the situation is a bit more complex.

It depends on what you mean by "right to exist". I don't think that there should be a "Jewish" state, so I guess that means that I don't believe that Israel has the right to exist. Does that mean that I think that Jews should be killed? Of course not. My husband is Jewish and I am not an anti-Semite. I am however, an ant-racist, anti-bigot, and so on.
I have no shame.
Do I think that a Jewish state is the only way to protect Jews? No. That is dumb. It could actually lead to more trouble. We as a country have been brainwashed into this idea that an Israel means that there will never be another Holocaust. We have had them since the war (Rwanda), and may see that again, but Israel or any other nationalist racist state like that is no solution.
I am a proponent of one state.

[Anonymous]

http://inthenews.co.uk/news/world//features/view-from-abroad/israel-gaza-conflict-history-repeated--$1258867.htm

This is an interesting article