war in Gaza

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find this thread littered with hatred for Jews. .

Do you really? I don't. But then, I always see a distinction between Israel and Jews. Not all Jews (Israeli or otherwise) support Israel's actions. Just like not all Americans support America's choices in foreign policy/military action.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What I was saying is that there is a huge difference in the attitude of Americans vs those in the Middle east. They have grown up around violence all their lives. It is nothing new to them. We simply cannot relate to their way of life because there is no comparison.

New poster here, with a question for the PP who made the statement above. How do you know this? Have you spent a lot of time in the Middle East? Speak Arabic or Persian? Just curious....because as someone who can answer yes to the previous two questions, I would disagree entirely with your perception of the attitude of people in the region toward life and death.

Agreed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What I was saying is that there is a huge difference in the attitude of Americans vs those in the Middle east. They have grown up around violence all their lives. It is nothing new to them. We simply cannot relate to their way of life because there is no comparison.

New poster here, with a question for the PP who made the statement above. How do you know this? Have you spent a lot of time in the Middle East? Speak Arabic or Persian? Just curious....because as someone who can answer yes to the previous two questions, I would disagree entirely with your perception of the attitude of people in the region toward life and death.

Agreed.

Ditto from me too.

[Anonymous]

Why don't you read the charter of Hamas and tell me if you believe it sounds peaceful:

CHARTER OF HAMAS:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."



The Palestinians chose a terrorist organization to represent them....what would you prefer, that Israel wait for another 1,000 rockets from Hamas and hope that the situation improves ?

Terrorist fits here when describing Hamas. But I am happy to refer to them as murderous, genocidal, religious fanatics, or homocidal maniacs if you prefer.

If you haven't looked into it, Hamas uses women and children as human shields. They deliberately kill Israeli civilians and launch suicide bombers to detonate near Israeli schools. They build their facilities near Palestinian civilians so they can use the body count as propaganda later....tell me, did Nelson Mandela do those things ? Israel only closed the checkpoints because some insane loon would come by each week and blow themselves up to take out Israeli school children.

Really, it's do or die at this point. Israel has to protect itself or some day down the road it will be slaughtered and turned into an Islamic theocracy like Iran. The Palestinians are reaping what they have sown through votes - though only Hamas is being targeted.

[Anonymous]

pp, remember, civil rights are human rights. You don't have to earn them.

[Anonymous]

Israel uses human shields too. Don't forget that 13 year old Palestinian boy they tied to the front of their jeep to discourage attacks.

Neither side is innocent.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:For some reason, the image of Palestinian women and children dancing in the streets on 9-11 comes to my mind.

Very few Palestinians danced in the streets on 9-11. However, it is the power of a television camera that it can focus on a small pictures and give the impression of something much wider.

There is a fairly well known case of five Israelis arrested in Liberty State Park in New Jersey on 9/11. They were see celebrating and dancing at the sight of the burning towers. These guys were actually defended by Alan Dershowitz.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75266&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

And, of course now, Israelis are dancing in the streets as a result of the attacks on Gaza:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2009/jan/04/israel-gaza-ground-troops?picture=341415902

Does this mean that all Israelis place a lower value on human life? Will the idea of five Israelis dancing on 9/11 affect your view of all Israelis? Will it now be okay for someone to kill over 250 Israeli children because Israelis dance when others are killed?

[Anonymous]

Why don't you read the charter of Hamas and tell me if you believe it sounds peaceful:

CHARTER OF HAMAS:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

The Palestinians chose a terrorist organization to represent them....what would you prefer, that Israel wait for another 1,000 rockets from Hamas and hope that the situation improves ?

Terrorist fits here when describing Hamas. But I am happy to refer to them as murderous, genocidal, religious fanatics, or homocidal maniacs if you prefer.

If you haven't looked into it, Hamas uses women and children as human shields. They deliberately kill Israeli civilians and launch suicide bombers to detonate near Israeli schools. They build their facilities near Palestinian civilians so they can use the body count as propaganda later....tell me, did Nelson Mandela do those things ? Israel only closed the checkpoints because some insane loon would come by each week and blow themselves up to take out Israeli school children.

Really, it's do or die at this point. Israel has to protect itself or some day down the road it will be slaughtered and turned into an Islamic theocracy like Iran. The Palestinians are reaping what they have sown through votes - though only Hamas is being targeted.

On the other side, there are now a number of Israeli scholars, probably the most noted of which is Ilan Pappe, who are starting to uncover overwhelming archival evidence that Israel had premeditated taking over Palestine and expelling its populations in one way or another since the 1920s. Basically none of Pappe's work has been challenged on a factual basis. For a more chilling account of some of the ethnic cleansing operations planned by Israel that new archival evidence has shown, read the book review of Pappe's latest work: http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2007/0705023.html

Why don't you read this and tell me if it sounds peaceful? And why don't you read some of the accounts of what is actually happening in Gaza, and then explain to us how Israel's actions fall short of being terrorist actions?

[Anonymous]

Just a question -- what's the point in Hamas' firing rockets at Israel? What do they gain by that? And did they stop during the ceasefire?

[Anonymous]

Why should Palestinians give up their desire to go back and live on the land that is now called Israel?

[Anonymous]

Just a question -- what's the point in Hamas' firing rockets at Israel? What do they gain by that? And did they stop during the ceasefire?

Many regional experts are speculating that based on intelligence gathered by Mossad, Hamas launched the recent round of rocket attacks on Israel to make a small show of force prior to re-negotiating the cease fire agreement on more equitable terms, including an attempt to end the blockade on Gaza that has for all practical purposes starved and deprived the population of medical care and other basic needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
On the other side, there are now a number of Israeli scholars, probably the most noted of which is Ilan Pappe, who are starting to uncover overwhelming archival evidence that Israel had premeditated taking over Palestine and expelling its populations in one way or another since the 1920s.

The Israeli state did not exist in 1920 - so how could Israel have done this?

There was (and is) a Zionist movement to re-establish a Jewish homeland that was resurgent 1900 - 1940 (I believe it dates back centuries). Perhaps you are confusing the two?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Just a question -- what's the point in Hamas' firing rockets at Israel? What do they gain by that? And did they stop during the ceasefire?

Hamas' acts of violence are often in the context of an armed liberation struggle such as that waged by the ANC in South Africa, the Vietnamese against France and the US, and even American minutemen against Great Britian. They are meant to raise the cost of the occupation. In addition, acts of violence are frequently undertaken for retaliatory purposes in response to Israeli acts of aggression.

After Israel withdrew from Gaza, violent attacks were less for the purpose of liberation (Gaza was already liberated), but as the previous poster mentioned, in response to the embargo. During the cease fire, Hamas did largely stop the rockets. However, there were cease fire violations by both Israel and Hamas. The conflict is often a tit for tat affair, which each side always able to did up an event further back than than other for justification. However, it is very clear that Hamas' decision not to renew the ceasefire when it expired is because of the embargo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What I was saying is that there is a huge difference in the attitude of Americans vs those in the Middle east. They have grown up around violence all their lives. It is nothing new to them. We simply cannot relate to their way of life because there is no comparison. I am not saying that it is right or that we shouldn't give a shit about what's going on. But, you would never see American women and children dancing in the street over this.
Before you start trying to figure it out and make it so tragic-Which, YES it is. They do not have the same value on life as we do here. Clearly that is supported by their response to 9-11.

Wow, this is disturbing on so many levels.

It takes me way back to the documentary, Hearts and Minds, about US involvement in South Vietnam. First General Westmoreland is shown saying that the Vietnamese are not affected by death the way we are. Then it shows a Vietnamese woman hysterically crying over her son's coffin as it's being lowered into its grave.

Got news for you. I know lots of Palestinians and Jews and I've never noticed one group valuing life more than the other. They, just as much as everyone else, were shocked and appalled by 9/11.

To argue that this anonymous "they" do not have the same value on life as "we" do is a clever dehumanizing trick. It's useful to justify bombing innocent people hiding in fear in their homes -- because "they" couldn't care as much about life as we do so what does it matter if hundreds of them die?

Gee, I bet that's what the Nazis told themselves as they sent Jews to die by the millions. That Jews didn't have the same sensitivities as Aryans and that they didn't care as much about the loss of human life. That was a twisted way of justifying what happened then and it's no less twisted today.

[Anonymous]

All the military successes of the past 60 years will never erase the self-image of Israel as a fragile island in a hostile sea. Nor can Palestinians forget being forced out of ancestral homes. This may not be a 1000 year battle, but it has a history that is ingrained in the participants.

There are people on both sides who are sickened by the violence and who would take risks to reach out in peace, but their voices are drowned out by compatriots who believe force is the only language the other side understands.