war in Gaza

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote: Yes, I actually have three of them on a shelf in front of me. Two in English and one in Arabic. I have read it completely in English and partially in Arabic. Also, I have an academic background that includes the study of Islam.

How on earth do you tolerate reading much of the drivel on the boards? Seriously. I am not being sarcastic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree totally about the Koran's hostility to Jews. There are numerous suras in which Jews are vilified (don't have it in front of me right now, but have read it). It is laughable to suggest otherwise, and honestly, it doesn't help the Palestinians' cause to pretend that the Koran isn't anti-Jewish--to deny that just makes it seem as though the person is not at all reasonable/objective, which harms the Palestinian cause. (BTW, I don't mean that the Koran is anti-Jewish as its main raison d'etre, obviously, simply that, as stated, there are numerous passages that are such.)

And as for Jews being respected as "people of the book," that was often just lip service. It is true that long ago in past centuries (Middle Ages/Renaissance, e.g.) Christian countries were often harsher to Jews than Arab/Muslim countries. It is not true, however, to say that Arab/Muslim countries treated Jews well or equally, simply better than Christian countries at that time, which isn't saying much!

Thank you for posting, I agree with you. I am the poster who asked who else had read the Koran.

The Koran I got is not in front of me. It was, I recall, a "genuine" Koran I got from Amazon, translated by respected Islamic religious scholars. It was leather bound and on parchment style paper, much like a Bible. I recall the forward and introduction being quite reverent. My point in describing it is that it seemed like a sincere translation by believers, not propaganda. (Of course, it could be a conspiracy!)

And yes, it was clear that vilification of the Jews was not "the point" of the text. But the Jews were mentioned several times and definitely NOT in flattering terms.

I think it's self deluding to claim that while Islam acknowledges the other "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews) that there is no animosity towards Jews in the actual text of the Koran. It's there.

Obviously that doesn't mean that all Muslims take these complaints about the Jews to heart. The point of originally raising this issue was to point out that Jewish/Arab hostility is not an entirely new problem. It may be new in terms of the hot conflict they are experiencing today. But the animosity may have been there long before.

Additionally as someone who studied the Old Testament extensively in my youth, I recognize that one can find ALL kinds of statements, many contradictory, and some quite appalling, in other Holy books besides just the Koran. And that not all followers of say, the Bible ascribe to all of its statements. And I recognize that a translator's choices can have a significant impact on the meaning of the text. One example I've heard suggested is that, in the Bible, Mary may not have been described as a "Virgin" in our sense of the word. The original word used may have been closer to "young woman". So this cult of adamant virginity we find in Catholicism may all be rooted in a word choice.... But the sections of the Koran I am referring to were numerous and more than just one word.... these were entire paragraphs.

Anyway this is not meant as an indictment of Islam or the Koran. Just pondering the reality of an ancient Arab/Jewish animosity.

And to the pp who asked if I only read some kooky website, no, I read the Koran. I did a quick google to see if there was anyone out there who had compiled the statements in the Koran that unfortunately I don't have access to at this time.

And yes I am sure there are many Arabs and Jews who work together, get along fine, etc. etc. I guess to me it's kind of like Black/White racism. The problem runs deep. Some of us are past prejudice or getting past it, or trying. Some of us can get along. Others are hiding resentments from the past. Others are actively angry, cruel, even violent. It doesn't help to pretend that racism does not exist. Similarly I don't think it helps to pretend that Arab/Israeli hostility is about a simple land and water dispute.

I believe the sections of the Koran we are talking about here that express anti-Jewish sentiment are relevant to that hostility and thus, a part of the problem today.

I can see your point (I am assuming you are a non-Muslim) however I completely disagree in your last sentence. There is no problem with Muslim and Jews - the problem is between Isreal and Palestine - Isreali's are Jewish and Palestinians are Muslim so it is taken as that.
The verses in the Quran that suggest anything negative about Judaism is not hostile but rather to explain why the 3rd religion was born and why we should follow this religion - for lack of better words, it is to convince, sway the followers and had to explain what made Allah choose to have a 3rd religion. If you read the Old Testament of the Bible - it is not that different from the Quran. The Quran only has different ways of practicing the religion after what was seen with the first 2 (they are modifications in the way of life). There was even a time when the Old Testament caused fear in anyone who had a copy. My mother is Muslim and had to wrap the Old Testament in a scarf in a taxi for fear that it would get taken away since they were very rare to find.
Just my 2 cents. Obviously there will always be different opinions but as a Muslim I felt the need to include my thoughts and feelings on the subject. Someone who grew up in that environment.

[Anonymous]

I would add that there are some pretty damn extreme passages in the Bible as well, but I'm not sure you can write off all of Christianity based on those passages. I'd hate to have a religion founded on the principles of the Old Testament, for example...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would add that there are some pretty damn extreme passages in the Bible as well, but I'm not sure you can write off all of Christianity based on those passages. I'd hate to have a religion founded on the principles of the Old Testament, for example...

So you hate Judaism?? Seriously, that is the meaning of your words (perhaps you didn't realize what you were saying).

[Anonymous]

So you hate Judaism?? Seriously, that is the meaning of your words (perhaps you didn't realize what you were saying).

Oh brother. Do you *really* think that is what I am saying?

I said that a religion based on principles of the old testament, eg. the violence and advocacy of war, is not something I would like. The collective religious texts of Judaism are far more encompassing than that, to my knowledge.

And yes, I did realize exactly what I was saying.

[Anonymous]

I would have to agree. "An eye for an eye" has to be one of THE dumbest principles. There is a lot of good in the Bible, but there are tons of nutty, nutty statements.

[Anonymous]

There is a lot of good in the Bible, Torah and Quran and there are things that are questionable - but at the end of the day they are books of history and guidance and we should take the good and leave it at that.

[Anonymous]

Why has this thread taken such a religious digression. It may involve some religious people, but this is a political problem.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read the Koran so I can't comment on this debate. But I have read the Old Testament and I hope we won't judge Jews and Christians today based on what is in the Torah/Old Testament. Because there is a whole lot of smiting and killing of various peoples and individuals for not particularly good reasons.

I was raised Christian and no longer am one. You wouldn't judge me based on what you read in the Old Testament, would you? Just like I don't judge my Muslim and lapsed-Muslim friends based on what is in the Kora or my Jewish friends based on the Torah.

At any rate, I agree with the pp that it doesn't do Muslim Palestinians good to ignore anti-Jewish statements in the Koran.

Also, please remember that part of the Palestinian population is Christian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the Koran so I can't comment on this debate. But I have read the Old Testament and I hope we won't judge Jews and Christians today based on what is in the Torah/Old Testament. Because there is a whole lot of smiting and killing of various peoples and individuals for not particularly good reasons.

I was raised Christian and no longer am one. You wouldn't judge me based on what you read in the Old Testament, would you? Just like I don't judge my Muslim and lapsed-Muslim friends based on what is in the Kora or my Jewish friends based on the Torah.

At any rate, I agree with the pp that it doesn't do Muslim Palestinians good to ignore anti-Jewish statements in the Koran.

Also, please remember that part of the Palestinian population is Christian.

What? What difference does it make if some are Christian. Does that mean we should be nicer to them because they aren't all Muslim? The point is that you don't have to be "a nice guy" (Christian) to be entitled to civil rights. We don't know what would have been written in the Torah if there were Muslims around when it was being written. There are lots of negative statements in the Torah about non-Jews.

[Anonymous]

What? What difference does it make if some are Christian. Does that mean we should be nicer to them because they aren't all Muslim? The point is that you don't have to be "a nice guy" (Christian) to be entitled to civil rights. We don't know what would have been written in the Torah if there were Muslims around when it was being written. There are lots of negative statements in the Torah about non-Jews.

pp, I think you misinterpreted my point. I'm cautioning people about making broad generalizations about the Palestinians based on the Koran which a) is the wrong thing to do about any religious group (making assumptions about them based solely on a dated religious text) and b) also inaccurate because not all Palestinians are Muslim.

I think it's also important to point out that some Palestinians are Christian because it may have an impact on the perspective of a small (at least I hope it's small) group of Christians out there who are broadly prejudiced against Muslims and associate Muslims with all things bad and I want to jolt them a little bit by pointing out that some Palestinians are Christian. If they want to justify treating Palestinians badly because of the Koran, then how would they suggest treating Palestinian Christians?

It's an absurd statement, to be sure, because bombing and killing innocent civilians is never justified, regardless of what their religious text says but some of the statements I've heard from people like this (not necessarily on this thread) are based on stereotypical thinking like this.

Also, it's important to point these things about because a lot of Americans have no idea of the broad diversity of the Middle East. Lebanon is vastly different from Saudi Arabia, for example, yet somehow people think they can make judgments about millions of people based on the Koran. (Again, not saying anyone did this on this thread but I've seen it pretty regularly elsewhere.)

I think you may have read my post too quickly because you go on to point out the exact same thing I pointed out -- that religious texts like the Torah and Old Testament advocate lots of nasty behavior against non-believers. And, as a former Christian, I hope that no one every justifies bombing my house based on what they read in the Old Testament.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why has this thread taken such a religious digression. It may involve some religious people, but this is a political problem.

Politics and religion usually go hand in hand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What? What difference does it make if some are Christian. Does that mean we should be nicer to them because they aren't all Muslim? The point is that you don't have to be "a nice guy" (Christian) to be entitled to civil rights. We don't know what would have been written in the Torah if there were Muslims around when it was being written. There are lots of negative statements in the Torah about non-Jews.

pp, I think you misinterpreted my point. I'm cautioning people about making broad generalizations about the Palestinians based on the Koran which a) is the wrong thing to do about any religious group (making assumptions about them based solely on a dated religious text) and b) also inaccurate because not all Palestinians are Muslim.

I think it's also important to point out that some Palestinians are Christian because it may have an impact on the perspective of a small (at least I hope it's small) group of Christians out there who are broadly prejudiced against Muslims and associate Muslims with all things bad and I want to jolt them a little bit by pointing out that some Palestinians are Christian. If they want to justify treating Palestinians badly because of the Koran, then how would they suggest treating Palestinian Christians?

It's an absurd statement, to be sure, because bombing and killing innocent civilians is never justified, regardless of what their religious text says but some of the statements I've heard from people like this (not necessarily on this thread) are based on stereotypical thinking like this.

Also, it's important to point these things about because a lot of Americans have no idea of the broad diversity of the Middle East. Lebanon is vastly different from Saudi Arabia, for example, yet somehow people think they can make judgments about millions of people based on the Koran. (Again, not saying anyone did this on this thread but I've seen it pretty regularly elsewhere.)

I think you may have read my post too quickly because you go on to point out the exact same thing I pointed out -- that religious texts like the Torah and Old Testament advocate lots of nasty behavior against non-believers. And, as a former Christian, I hope that no one every justifies bombing my house based on what they read in the Old Testament.

OK

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why has this thread taken such a religious digression. It may involve some religious people, but this is a political problem.

Politics and religion usually go hand in hand.

And two topics that will ever get everyone to agree and live in harmony....sadly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:(Different poster here) I have read the Quran and as a Muslim and speak Arabic as a 2nd language, can say that it is very difficult to interpret. First, it is written in classical Arabic and in the art of poetry, then translated to English, then interpreted by a sheikh or scholar who preaches in the way that they understood it's meaning. This is a huge issue with me and why I believe there are Muslim terrorists and Muslims that hate Westerners (please note that this is the minority and certainly not the majority). A true Muslim does not judge the religions of God which in Islam are Judaism and Christianity which came before Islam and are respected as that. The Quran is all how you interpret it and some extremists take it literal hence their name. Did you really read the book or just that website that you posted the link? If you read the book - did you not pick up on anything else in the book other that what you interpreted?

Agreed. In fact, if you haven't been raised with it, I think it's extraordinarily difficult to understand. There are so many cultural and language issues that just don't translate well to modern Western culture and the English language.