war in Gaza

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The US should offer all Palestinians citizenship. So that they can be dual citizens and have a big influence on our policies.

Is that what they want?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The US should offer all Palestinians citizenship. So that they can be dual citizens and have a big influence on our policies.

Is that what they want?

I assume that was a crack at Israeli influence.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why not all of their Arab and Iranian friends? Nevermind. The Arabs are so bent on a Palestinian state b/c they want nothing to do with them, centuries old problem.

The problem in Gaza is not a "centuries old problem". As a previous poster said, describing the conflict that way is a cop out meant to make it easy to shrug it off. For most of Islamic history, Arabs and Jews got along fine. When the Spanish Inquisition targeted Jews, many of them found sanctuary in Muslim countries (establishing communities that still exist today).

Throughout history, European Christians have been involved in far more fighting in the region. Arab/Jewish fighting is relatively new and even that is a result of European anti-Semitism. If European Jews had not felt a need to flee Europe, they would not be in conflict with the indigenous population of Palestine.

As for resettling in Arab countries or Iran, there are many, many Palestinians who will never return to their homes in what is now Israel. The Right of Return will be negotiated away as part of any peace process and its likely that Arab countries will absorb Palestinians. But, this thread is about Gaza. Are you suggesting the mass depopulation of Gaza? If so, you are an ethnic cleanser that would make Serbians, Sudanese, and even Rwandan Hutus blush.

I'm no expert on the Arab Israeli conflict. But I have read some of the Koran. And the Koran does a LOT of bitchin' and moanin' about the Jews. Since the Koran is more than a few centuries old, wouldn't that make Arab-Israeli animosity a "centuries old problem"?

It has seemed to me that what this conflict is really about is resources (aren't they all?), specifically land. The Palestinians and the Israelis both want the SAME pieces of land. Right? Both have certain claims to it.... both possessed it at different times.... now they are unwilling to share and cannot peacefully coexists on the same land, the land both groups characterizes as "Holy" and in essence, the suburbs surrounding it. Right? Because they are unwilling to tolerate one another and their cultural differences. Right?

Didn't the current conflict begin because, from the Palestinian perspective, one day there they are, living in the Holy land and surrounding areas, and suddenly the land is "given back" to the Jews after WWII? Wouldn't it be kind of like, here I am living in Virginia, and one day some foreign powers give my neighborhood back to native americans? Who indeed had a claim on it once.

I really am ASKING because I do not know. This is just what I have inferred. Someone please enlighten me?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm no expert on the Arab Israeli conflict. But I have read some of the Koran. And the Koran does a LOT of bitchin' and moanin' about the Jews. Since the Koran is more than a few centuries old, wouldn't that make Arab-Israeli animosity a "centuries old problem"?

The Quran actually does not bitch and moan about the Jews. Rather, Jews -- as well as Christians -- as described as "people of the book" who must be protected.

At any rate, at the time the Quran was revealed, there was no Israel and Jews were scattered throughout the region. As Islam came into contact with them, they were generally treated well. I'm not aware of any Jewish/Islamic conflict at that time. Whenever Muslims captured Jerusalem, they allowed Jews to return. In contrast, Christians were generally much more oppressive toward both Jews and Muslims.

Anonymous wrote:
Didn't the current conflict begin because, from the Palestinian perspective, one day there they are, living in the Holy land and surrounding areas, and suddenly the land is "given back" to the Jews after WWII? Wouldn't it be kind of like, here I am living in Virginia, and one day some foreign powers give my neighborhood back to native americans? Who indeed had a claim on it once.

I really am ASKING because I do not know. This is just what I have inferred. Someone please enlighten me?

It's almost exactly like native Americans showing up and claiming Virginia and expelling you and your family to refugee camps in Canada (and then asking why the Canadians don't give you citizenship).

But, most Palestinians have come to the realization that Israel is not going anywhere. So, they are struggling for independence in the lands they have left. A lot of attention is focused on whether Palestinians recognize Israel's "right to exist". Most will never accept such a right because that would be the same as saying it was a right to destroy Palestine. What most Palestinians will do is recognize Israel's right to security within defined borders (more or less following the 1967 demarcation lines). It's an acceptance of Israel's existence, if not its right to exist.

And, yes, the struggle for resources -- especially water -- plays an important role.

It's also important to understand that while there is hatred between many Palestinians and Israelis, many of them have been co-existing peacefully for quite some time. Large numbers of Palestinians work in Israel. They are respected employees. Israelis have trusted business partners among the Palestinians. It's a complex problem with layer of inter-related issues. But, it's possible to turn around.

[Anonymous]

The Quran actually does not bitch and moan about the Jews. Rather, Jews -- as well as Christians -- as described as "people of the book" who must be protected.

Thank you for writing/clarifying this because I really think that this is what most Americans believe excluding of course the ones have taken an interest in the topic and have been pro active in learning about Islam.

[Anonymous]

"The Quran actually does not bitch and moan about the Jews. Rather, Jews -- as well as Christians -- as described as "people of the book" who must be protected."

Thanks for the information you provided, it is helpful. However I must disagree with the above as it is the only part I actuallly DO feel educated about. I bought a copy of the Koran and read it. Can you please tell me if you have read it?

Unfortunately all my books are packed away as I am moving. So I can't whip it out and find chapter and verse. But it was VERY negative about the jews. I was actually reading it to find out what it said about women, but found only a few references to women. The diatribes about the Jews were many.

I found the tone of voice the author (Muhammed) uses when quoting Allah to be astonishing. Really... whiny and bitchy.

Anyone else actually read it?

[Anonymous]

PP here, obviously you can't read everything you find on the 'net. But here is a site that claims to summarize some of the negativity about the Jews in the Koran:

http://mideastoutpost.com/archives/000022.html

[Anonymous]

(Different poster here) I have read the Quran and as a Muslim and speak Arabic as a 2nd language, can say that it is very difficult to interpret. First, it is written in classical Arabic and in the art of poetry, then translated to English, then interpreted by a sheikh or scholar who preaches in the way that they understood it's meaning. This is a huge issue with me and why I believe there are Muslim terrorists and Muslims that hate Westerners (please note that this is the minority and certainly not the majority). A true Muslim does not judge the religions of God which in Islam are Judaism and Christianity which came before Islam and are respected as that. The Quran is all how you interpret it and some extremists take it literal hence their name. Did you really read the book or just that website that you posted the link? If you read the book - did you not pick up on anything else in the book other that what you interpreted?

[Anonymous]

PP again - I read the link you posted and about 10 of the 20 traits are the same thing: Lying, fabricating, breaking promises etc. Not that it matters, but it is quite repetitive and loses it's point.

[Anonymous]

Jeff, I think that when you read Ilan Pappe's book, yu don't get the impression that most Palestinians accept that Israel is going no where. It is not unreasonable that many still yearn to return.

[Anonymous]

Agree totally about the Koran's hostility to Jews. There are numerous suras in which Jews are vilified (don't have it in front of me right now, but have read it). It is laughable to suggest otherwise, and honestly, it doesn't help the Palestinians' cause to pretend that the Koran isn't anti-Jewish--to deny that just makes it seem as though the person is not at all reasonable/objective, which harms the Palestinian cause. (BTW, I don't mean that the Koran is anti-Jewish as its main raison d'etre, obviously, simply that, as stated, there are numerous passages that are such.)

And as for Jews being respected as "people of the book," that was often just lip service. It is true that long ago in past centuries (Middle Ages/Renaissance, e.g.) Christian countries were often harsher to Jews than Arab/Muslim countries. It is not true, however, to say that Arab/Muslim countries treated Jews well or equally, simply better than Christian countries at that time, which isn't saying much!

[Anonymous]

PP again--I forgot one other point. It would be far more persuasive for supporters of the Palestinians to honestly acknowledge the anti-Jewish segments of the Koran, and then explain it away as analogous to the outdated parts of Hebrew and Christian Bibles, rather than to pretend it doesn't exist. Just as it doesn't necessarily deny/negate the rest of the Bible to honestly recognize that we no longer are going to stone adulters (of course, in Muslim countries ruled by Shari'a such a law is on the books, but that's another issue...), for example, or have men marry their childless widowed sisters-in-law, it shouldn't be an affront to Muslims to openly acknowledge the unseemly/outdated parts of the Koran.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"The Quran actually does not bitch and moan about the Jews. Rather, Jews -- as well as Christians -- as described as "people of the book" who must be protected."

Thanks for the information you provided, it is helpful. However I must disagree with the above as it is the only part I actuallly DO feel educated about. I bought a copy of the Koran and read it. Can you please tell me if you have read it?

Unfortunately all my books are packed away as I am moving. So I can't whip it out and find chapter and verse. But it was VERY negative about the jews. I was actually reading it to find out what it said about women, but found only a few references to women. The diatribes about the Jews were many.

I found the tone of voice the author (Muhammed) uses when quoting Allah to be astonishing. Really... whiny and bitchy.

Anyone else actually read it?

Another perspective:
Contrary to Islam's reputation of converting by the sword, the Qur'an is clear that there must be "no compulsion in religion." {1} Yet Muslims are not pluralistic in their worldview - they consider their religion to the be the true religion and invite people of all races, nationalities and religions to be part of it.

Islam is closely connected to the two other Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity. In fact, the Qur'an explains that the religion of the Jews and Christians is the same as that revealed to Muhammad, and Allah is God of them all.

The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn to Him. {2}

Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail, and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:" {Qur'an 6:154-56}
However, Jews and Christians have not been completely responsible with their revelation and should still be called to the Muslim faith:

And they became divided only after Knowledge reached them,- through selfish envy as between themselves. Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord, tending to a Term appointed, the matter would have been settled between them: But truly those who have inherited the Book after them are in suspicious disquieting doubt concerning it.

Now then, for that reason, call them to the Faith, and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord: for us is the responsibility for our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is our Final Goal.

But those who dispute concerning Allah after He has been accepted,- futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord: on them will be a Penalty terrible. {3}
Muhammad spoke approvingly of Jews and Christians as fellow "People of the Book," and the Qur'an even allows a Muslim man to take a Jewish or Christian woman for his wife. {4} It also expresses admiration for the Jews, in that "they know the Book as they know their own children!" {5}

As seen in the quote above, Muslims consider the prophets of Judaism and Christianity to be true messengers of God, but hold Muhammad to be the last and greatest of these.

Although the Qur'an teaches that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary {6}, it rejects the divinity of Jesus. It also explicitly condemns the doctrine of the Trinity, which it seems to interpret as consisting of God, Jesus and Mary:

Believe therefore in God and His Apostles and say not "Three."

They misbelieve who say, "Verily God is the third of three." The Messiah, the son of Mary, is only a prophet...and his mother was a confessor, they both ate food.

And when God shall say, "O Jesus son of Mary hast thou said unto mankind, "Take me and my mother as two Gods besides God?" {7}
Muslims reject both the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. According to the Qur'an, Jesus escaped the crucifixion and ascended directly to heaven . {8}

Despite these sharp theological differences, the Qur'an does suggest there is hope for the salvation of Jews and Christians: at the Last Day, distinct communities will be judged according to "their own book" {9} and:

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Agree totally about the Koran's hostility to Jews. There are numerous suras in which Jews are vilified (don't have it in front of me right now, but have read it). It is laughable to suggest otherwise, and honestly, it doesn't help the Palestinians' cause to pretend that the Koran isn't anti-Jewish--to deny that just makes it seem as though the person is not at all reasonable/objective, which harms the Palestinian cause. (BTW, I don't mean that the Koran is anti-Jewish as its main raison d'etre, obviously, simply that, as stated, there are numerous passages that are such.)

And as for Jews being respected as "people of the book," that was often just lip service. It is true that long ago in past centuries (Middle Ages/Renaissance, e.g.) Christian countries were often harsher to Jews than Arab/Muslim countries. It is not true, however, to say that Arab/Muslim countries treated Jews well or equally, simply better than Christian countries at that time, which isn't saying much!

I can only surmise that posters such as this PP have only learned about the Quran from anti-Islamic propaganda tracts. Someone asked if I had read it. Yes, I actually have three of them on a shelf in front of me. Two in English and one in Arabic. I have read it completely in English and partially in Arabic. Also, I have an academic background that includes the study of Islam. The Quran lends itself to multiple interpretations and, hence, can often be portrayed as anti-Jewish. I won't deny that there are some passages that are prejudicial toward Jews. However, I continue to object to the view that there are "numerous suras in which Jews are vilified". Even Bernard Lewis, whose scholarship I rarely praise, has rejected that the Quran is anti-Jewish.

The PP would like to relegate Christian anti-Semitism to "past centuries". True, the 20th century is past, but there are still people alive today who experienced WWII. It's not that far in the past.

I stand by the point that I have expressed that Muslim/Jewish conflict was virtually unknown prior to the arrival of European Jews in great number to historic Palestine. And, what conflict there was was dwarfed by Christian/Jewish conflict (and Christian/Muslim conflict for that matter). If someone disagrees with that, cite the conflicts that I've overlooked. You are going to have to do better than a few disputed passages from the Quran that don't amount to conflict even in their worst interpretations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Agree totally about the Koran's hostility to Jews. There are numerous suras in which Jews are vilified (don't have it in front of me right now, but have read it). It is laughable to suggest otherwise, and honestly, it doesn't help the Palestinians' cause to pretend that the Koran isn't anti-Jewish--to deny that just makes it seem as though the person is not at all reasonable/objective, which harms the Palestinian cause. (BTW, I don't mean that the Koran is anti-Jewish as its main raison d'etre, obviously, simply that, as stated, there are numerous passages that are such.)

And as for Jews being respected as "people of the book," that was often just lip service. It is true that long ago in past centuries (Middle Ages/Renaissance, e.g.) Christian countries were often harsher to Jews than Arab/Muslim countries. It is not true, however, to say that Arab/Muslim countries treated Jews well or equally, simply better than Christian countries at that time, which isn't saying much!

Thank you for posting, I agree with you. I am the poster who asked who else had read the Koran.

The Koran I got is not in front of me. It was, I recall, a "genuine" Koran I got from Amazon, translated by respected Islamic religious scholars. It was leather bound and on parchment style paper, much like a Bible. I recall the forward and introduction being quite reverent. My point in describing it is that it seemed like a sincere translation by believers, not propaganda. (Of course, it could be a conspiracy!)

And yes, it was clear that vilification of the Jews was not "the point" of the text. But the Jews were mentioned several times and definitely NOT in flattering terms.

I think it's self deluding to claim that while Islam acknowledges the other "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews) that there is no animosity towards Jews in the actual text of the Koran. It's there.

Obviously that doesn't mean that all Muslims take these complaints about the Jews to heart. The point of originally raising this issue was to point out that Jewish/Arab hostility is not an entirely new problem. It may be new in terms of the hot conflict they are experiencing today. But the animosity may have been there long before.

Additionally as someone who studied the Old Testament extensively in my youth, I recognize that one can find ALL kinds of statements, many contradictory, and some quite appalling, in other Holy books besides just the Koran. And that not all followers of say, the Bible ascribe to all of its statements. And I recognize that a translator's choices can have a significant impact on the meaning of the text. One example I've heard suggested is that, in the Bible, Mary may not have been described as a "Virgin" in our sense of the word. The original word used may have been closer to "young woman". So this cult of adamant virginity we find in Catholicism may all be rooted in a word choice.... But the sections of the Koran I am referring to were numerous and more than just one word.... these were entire paragraphs.

Anyway this is not meant as an indictment of Islam or the Koran. Just pondering the reality of an ancient Arab/Jewish animosity.

And to the pp who asked if I only read some kooky website, no, I read the Koran. I did a quick google to see if there was anyone out there who had compiled the statements in the Koran that unfortunately I don't have access to at this time.

And yes I am sure there are many Arabs and Jews who work together, get along fine, etc. etc. I guess to me it's kind of like Black/White racism. The problem runs deep. Some of us are past prejudice or getting past it, or trying. Some of us can get along. Others are hiding resentments from the past. Others are actively angry, cruel, even violent. It doesn't help to pretend that racism does not exist. Similarly I don't think it helps to pretend that Arab/Israeli hostility is about a simple land and water dispute.

I believe the sections of the Koran we are talking about here that express anti-Jewish sentiment are relevant to that hostility and thus, a part of the problem today.