Documentary: American Promise

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Is Idris' dad a lot older than his mom? He looked old from the beginning and she looked really young.

I went to law school with her twenty years ago. She was probably in her very early thirties at the start of the film.

Was she that intense in law school?

The interesting thing about her is that she hasn't seemed to age one year from the beginning of the documentary till now.

It was Columbia Law School. We were all intense. Some were more intense than others, but she didn't strike me as an outlier.

And I bet she isn't an outlier in her parenting either. Most parents I know who have similar backgrounds as hers have children who do well in school - at least the same as the parents - which in these cases mean outstanding. Poor Idris, not easy being the child of parents like that, especially when you are an average student.

I agree with the PP. I'm also a graduate of Columbia grad school. And it IS intense. And WE were intense.

However, I disagree that these parents have children who do well in school. Some of us do; many of us do not. Many of us are okay with our "average" children. We're probably alike in our desires and dreams for our children. What parent (Ivy or not) doesn't want wonderful children who excel academically without struggling? The difference is that many of us accept the reality of who our children are. Many Ivy parents will tell you, "That's not my kid. I don't see an ivy in his future." and adjust their expectations. The Michele Stephenson-Brewsters of the world, however, try to force their square children into circles, leading to children who feel unworthy and incompetent with lowered self-esteem.

The ones with academically struggling children aren't the ones that shows up at reunions and other events. It seems like every parent who shows up at my Ivy reunions have kids who are at the same Ivy, another Ivy or Stanford. Same thing at social events: You only hear about the kids who are going to Harvard Law. Certainly no one should force their square children into round pegs but the pressure to have the same high achieving kids is enormous and yeah, I felt bad about what they were doing to Idris but understood. It's incredibly difficult being a go-getter and ultra competitive your entire life and then having to put it aside.

That scene where the parents were conducting "practice" college interviews with Idris: OMG!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is Idris' dad a lot older than his mom? He looked old from the beginning and she looked really young.

I went to law school with her twenty years ago. She was probably in her very early thirties at the start of the film.

Was she that intense in law school?

The interesting thing about her is that she hasn't seemed to age one year from the beginning of the documentary till now.

It was Columbia Law School. We were all intense. Some were more intense than others, but she didn't strike me as an outlier.

And I bet she isn't an outlier in her parenting either. Most parents I know who have similar backgrounds as hers have children who do well in school - at least the same as the parents - which in these cases mean outstanding. Poor Idris, not easy being the child of parents like that, especially when you are an average student.

I agree with the PP. I'm also a graduate of Columbia grad school. And it IS intense. And WE were intense.

However, I disagree that these parents have children who do well in school. Some of us do; many of us do not. Many of us are okay with our "average" children. We're probably alike in our desires and dreams for our children. What parent (Ivy or not) doesn't want wonderful children who excel academically without struggling? The difference is that many of us accept the reality of who our children are. Many Ivy parents will tell you, "That's not my kid. I don't see an ivy in his future." and adjust their expectations. The Michele Stephenson-Brewsters of the world, however, try to force their square children into circles, leading to children who feel unworthy and incompetent with lowered self-esteem.

The ones with academically struggling children aren't the ones that shows up at reunions and other events. It seems like every parent who shows up at my Ivy reunions have kids who are at the same Ivy, another Ivy or Stanford. Same thing at social events: You only hear about the kids who are going to Harvard Law. Certainly no one should force their square children into round pegs but the pressure to have the same high achieving kids is enormous and yeah, I felt bad about what they were doing to Idris but understood. It's incredibly difficult being a go-getter and ultra competitive your entire life and then having to put it aside.

That scene where the parents were conducting "practice" college interviews with Idris: OMG!

PP here.

There is definitely a subculture in the Ivy league whose entire self-worth is wrapped up in their educational background.

One of the main takeaways I got from my Ivy education (Columbia and another ivy) is independent thought and a TRUE sense of self-worth. I know that I'm worthy, wonderful and bright in my own right. I also know that I don't have to be like everyone else. (So maybe it was my ivy education coupled with lessons from childhood.)

The Brewsters' desires were understood, but at some point, when your child is struggling so badly that you fear he may not make it through HIGH SCHOOL (add to that obviously unimpressive grades), you might want to alter your expectations to reflect reality. When the school is suggesting ADHD and medication? Your child is unorganized? Yeah, it's time to be a PARENT not an ivy league degree.

Funny I just rewatched the interview scene right before coming in here and reading your comment. OMG is the reaction! You know what I told my DS re: his interviews? To be himself! He's an impressive individual and as long as he was natural and unrehearsed, I knew he'd do fine.

[Anonymous]

And yes, DS was given that advice for his interviews at an actual ivy and a school that considers itself "ivy like".

[Anonymous]

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2. Was there a change in location towards the end? When Idris and his mother drove outside the city, it seemed they were in a different house. It's too bad that wasn't explained. (Or were they at home but I missed something.) Like, did they go to a vacation home? Was it necessary for them to go to a different location to get the college admissions results? Was the family living separately? I mean, who knows?

They were at their country house in Woodstock, NY.

If the family owned two houses, why did they need financial aid?

How do you know they got financial aid? There was no mention of it in the film.

When Idris got tutoring with Seun and the parents questioned why Idris was getting tutoring. They said that they were told that all the students on financial aide were offered tutoring.

Oh, I missed that.

Country houses in Woodstock are inexpensive or they were a few yrs ago. I have several friends from NYC who own country houses there. They all send their kids to private schools like Dalton, too. Makes me wonder if they get financial aid. But honestly, living in NYC is very expensive and it's doubtful owning a vacation home in Woodstock, NY will make much difference in receiving aid. It's not like they own a pied de terre in Paris or a second home in Aspen.

Even if it was $150,000-250,000, that should not qualify you for aid. I think it was more race based aid and I just don't get why a parent would want to send those boys to a school like that. It seemed like a pure set up for failure. They seemed like great kids that were probably smart in their own way but the parents were missing other factors that if caught early on would have helped (along with the right school setting). I would have preferred my child (regardless of race) to go to the high school the one child transferred to that seemed much more down to earth and ultimately providing a better education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



2. Was there a change in location towards the end? When Idris and his mother drove outside the city, it seemed they were in a different house. It's too bad that wasn't explained. (Or were they at home but I missed something.) Like, did they go to a vacation home? Was it necessary for them to go to a different location to get the college admissions results? Was the family living separately? I mean, who knows?

They were at their country house in Woodstock, NY.

If the family owned two houses, why did they need financial aid?

How do you know they got financial aid? There was no mention of it in the film.

When Idris got tutoring with Seun and the parents questioned why Idris was getting tutoring. They said that they were told that all the students on financial aide were offered tutoring.

Oh, I missed that.

Country houses in Woodstock are inexpensive or they were a few yrs ago. I have several friends from NYC who own country houses there. They all send their kids to private schools like Dalton, too. Makes me wonder if they get financial aid. But honestly, living in NYC is very expensive and it's doubtful owning a vacation home in Woodstock, NY will make much difference in receiving aid. It's not like they own a pied de terre in Paris or a second home in Aspen.

Even if it was $150,000-250,000, that should not qualify you for aid. I think it was more race based aid and I just don't get why a parent would want to send those boys to a school like that. It seemed like a pure set up for failure. They seemed like great kids that were probably smart in their own way but the parents were missing other factors that if caught early on would have helped (along with the right school setting). I would have preferred my child (regardless of race) to go to the high school the one child transferred to that seemed much more down to earth and ultimately providing a better education.

Everyone is playing to win the education game these days. It's like the law school lottery where every player thinks he can beat the odds and win big.

[Anonymous]

Yes, education has become like a lottery and a game. Hopefully this documentary (and others like it) along with countless articles on the matter will help parents realize that it just isn't worth it

If your child is gifted and thrives academically, great! But if your child can only perform academically by spending countless hours in tutoring, staying up until 2 am completing homework, and living under constant stress, what's the point? Is an Ivy acceptance email really worth your child losing his one and only childhood over?

I just rewatched Idris' college decision day and realized this obviously (below?) average kid applied to Brown and Berkeley in addition to Wake Forest and Stanford. (Harvard and Yale were probably in there somewhere too.) The kid obviously felt badly but for the dad to berate him as lazy and say that HE was "angry" and "pained"???? Did the Brewsters not realize these were REACH schools for Idris?

I'm shocked it never occurred to them that maybe Idris felt badly too and that kicking him while he was down was not a good idea.

But, the reaction was telling. It was all about THEM all along. Forget Idris and his struggles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, education has become like a lottery and a game. Hopefully this documentary (and others like it) along with countless articles on the matter will help parents realize that it just isn't worth it

If your child is gifted and thrives academically, great! But if your child can only perform academically by spending countless hours in tutoring, staying up until 2 am completing homework, and living under constant stress, what's the point? Is an Ivy acceptance email really worth your child losing his one and only childhood over?

I just rewatched Idris' college decision day and realized this obviously (below?) average kid applied to Brown and Berkeley in addition to Wake Forest and Stanford. (Harvard and Yale were probably in there somewhere too.) The kid obviously felt badly but for the dad to berate him as lazy and say that HE was "angry" and "pained"???? Did the Brewsters not realize these were REACH schools for Idris?

I'm shocked it never occurred to them that maybe Idris felt badly too and that kicking him while he was down was not a good idea.

But, the reaction was telling. It was all about THEM all along. Forget Idris and his struggles.

Maybe Dalton politely told them. And they ignored it because they usually think the school tells them things because Idris is an AA boy, not because they are trying to help or be real.

[Anonymous]

I don't know where some of you are getting that these kids were "average", much less "below average". I understood that their parents chose to enroll Idris and Seun at Dalton because, at age 5, they were incredibly bright and precocious kids. It is not spelled out, but it appears that their other children did not go to Dalton, probably because they did not show the same exceptional promise early on. Unfortunately, their intelligence at 5 did not translate into academic success at 18. It is unclear how much that had to do with the unique challenges of being black in America, or AA at a mostly white school, and how much came from the fact that a high-stress environment coupled with parental pressure and micromanaging isn't always conducive to intellectual growth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know where some of you are getting that these kids were "average", much less "below average". I understood that their parents chose to enroll Idris and Seun at Dalton because, at age 5, they were incredibly bright and precocious kids. It is not spelled out, but it appears that their other children did not go to Dalton, probably because they did not show the same exceptional promise early on. Unfortunately, their intelligence at 5 did not translate into academic success at 18. It is unclear how much that had to do with the unique challenges of being black in America, or AA at a mostly white school, and how much came from the fact that a high-stress environment coupled with parental pressure and micromanaging isn't always conducive to intellectual growth.

Being the smart one in the family doesn't always translate to that in the classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know where some of you are getting that these kids were "average", much less "below average". I understood that their parents chose to enroll Idris and Seun at Dalton because, at age 5, they were incredibly bright and precocious kids. It is not spelled out, but it appears that their other children did not go to Dalton, probably because they did not show the same exceptional promise early on. Unfortunately, their intelligence at 5 did not translate into academic success at 18. It is unclear how much that had to do with the unique challenges of being black in America, or AA at a mostly white school, and how much came from the fact that a high-stress environment coupled with parental pressure and micromanaging isn't always conducive to intellectual growth.

I called Idris "average" or "below average" based on the college outcomes. He was waitlisted at Trinity, accepted at schools that "average" kids go to, and rejected at those for the intellectually "superior". I only consider him "average" academically. He was actually gifted in so many ways. He was intelligent, self-aware and well-spoken from an early age. He was also sensitive, just a wonderful child and person of tremendous promise. I hold the same opinion of Seun.

I wonder if the other kids didn't go to Dalton because the parents decided it was simply not a place that can educate African-American males. That's really the premise of their entire documentary.

I don't think that any of Idris' problems were due to his race. I think it all stemmed from parents refusing to appreciate him for who he was, while trying to force him to be what he wasn't: a kid who was suited for the type of academic pressure cooker that is Dalton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, education has become like a lottery and a game. Hopefully this documentary (and others like it) along with countless articles on the matter will help parents realize that it just isn't worth it

If your child is gifted and thrives academically, great! But if your child can only perform academically by spending countless hours in tutoring, staying up until 2 am completing homework, and living under constant stress, what's the point? Is an Ivy acceptance email really worth your child losing his one and only childhood over?

I just rewatched Idris' college decision day and realized this obviously (below?) average kid applied to Brown and Berkeley in addition to Wake Forest and Stanford. (Harvard and Yale were probably in there somewhere too.) The kid obviously felt badly but for the dad to berate him as lazy and say that HE was "angry" and "pained"???? Did the Brewsters not realize these were REACH schools for Idris?

I'm shocked it never occurred to them that maybe Idris felt badly too and that kicking him while he was down was not a good idea.

But, the reaction was telling. It was all about THEM all along. Forget Idris and his struggles.

Maybe Dalton politely told them. And they ignored it because they usually think the school tells them things because Idris is an AA boy, not because they are trying to help or be real.

Exactly! I'm sure Dalton told them. And I'm also willing to bet the guidance counselor's recommendation letter (and maybe a teacher rec as well) discussed his academic struggles and likely suggested he would not be a good fit at the reach schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know where some of you are getting that these kids were "average", much less "below average". I understood that their parents chose to enroll Idris and Seun at Dalton because, at age 5, they were incredibly bright and precocious kids. It is not spelled out, but it appears that their other children did not go to Dalton, probably because they did not show the same exceptional promise early on. Unfortunately, their intelligence at 5 did not translate into academic success at 18. It is unclear how much that had to do with the unique challenges of being black in America, or AA at a mostly white school, and how much came from the fact that a high-stress environment coupled with parental pressure and micromanaging isn't always conducive to intellectual growth.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, perhaps the reason Seun's family didn't enroll (or apply) their other children at Dalton was because they didn't want to go through the experience again.

The Brewster parents seemed to have money so I'm baffled why they didn't pay for outside tutoring instead of micromanaging Idris at home. They were aware that other families were spending tens of thousands of dollars annually in tutoring to give their kid an edge.

I agree that they assumed Idris' URM, ivy legacy, and AA male status applying from Dalton would give him a leg up. Maybe they believed that he was a special type of AA male because of his background and that admission committees would gobble him up regardless of his GPA/board scores. I'm sure Dalton had tools like Naviance or counselors who gave him/them strongly worded warnings that the ivies and highly SLACs were overreaches. I wonder why they didn't shoot those discussions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know where some of you are getting that these kids were "average", much less "below average". I understood that their parents chose to enroll Idris and Seun at Dalton because, at age 5, they were incredibly bright and precocious kids. It is not spelled out, but it appears that their other children did not go to Dalton, probably because they did not show the same exceptional promise early on. Unfortunately, their intelligence at 5 did not translate into academic success at 18. It is unclear how much that had to do with the unique challenges of being black in America, or AA at a mostly white school, and how much came from the fact that a high-stress environment coupled with parental pressure and micromanaging isn't always conducive to intellectual growth.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, perhaps the reason Seun's family didn't enroll (or apply) their other children at Dalton was because they didn't want to go through the experience again.

The Brewster parents seemed to have money so I'm baffled why they didn't pay for outside tutoring instead of micromanaging Idris at home. They were aware that other families were spending tens of thousands of dollars annually in tutoring to give their kid an edge.

I agree that they assumed Idris' URM, ivy legacy, and AA male status applying from Dalton would give him a leg up. Maybe they believed that he was a special type of AA male because of his background and that admission committees would gobble him up regardless of his GPA/board scores. I'm sure Dalton had tools like Naviance or counselors who gave him/them strongly worded warnings that the ivies and highly SLACs were overreaches. I wonder why they didn't shoot those discussions.

His college outcomes make me wonder what his GPA was like. The kid must've been a C student. Because I'd think that even a "B" with Dalton, legacy and being an AA male would've at least gotten him waitlisted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know where some of you are getting that these kids were "average", much less "below average". I understood that their parents chose to enroll Idris and Seun at Dalton because, at age 5, they were incredibly bright and precocious kids. It is not spelled out, but it appears that their other children did not go to Dalton, probably because they did not show the same exceptional promise early on. Unfortunately, their intelligence at 5 did not translate into academic success at 18. It is unclear how much that had to do with the unique challenges of being black in America, or AA at a mostly white school, and how much came from the fact that a high-stress environment coupled with parental pressure and micromanaging isn't always conducive to intellectual growth.

Both boys were diagnosed with learning disabilities that could have been addressed much earlier. Seun's dyslexia and Idris' ADHD probably was clear to their teachers at least by third grade. From what was shown in the documentary, neither family seemed to appreciate the academic stress that was placed on their sons in that pressure-cooker environment.

In Idris' case, he also endured parental stress at home regarding academics, glad he didn't turn to drugs or act out in other negative ways. Seun also, later on given the trials in his family, revealed that he is a person of deep character.

To "succeed" at a Dalton as a URM, it requires the ability to academically compete with the top students in your grade, achieve something of distinction, excel at a sport (it really helps), and socially network. Girls have it a bit easier because they have the gift of micromanaging their relationships.

[Anonymous]

I was surprised that Dalton didn't insist that Idris have testing done for ADHD. Being a private school, they can put pressure on a family for this to happen. And how is it that the school didn't notice or make it clear that Seun had dyslexia until 4th grade? Don't they have learning specialists at elite private schools that would notice he isn't able to read and wonder why?