Documentary: American Promise

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The Brewsters truly believe this is a story about private, elite, predominately white schools failing to educate black boys.

I can't help but wonder if they showed the nagging scenes to prove that they were doing all they could at home--but still the school failed these black boys. OR, perhaps they were showing how difficult it is for parents at home when the school is failing the child. The fact that they still don't get it in hindsight is staggering.

They actually had petitions at the speaking engagment, asking others to join them in the fight to ensure black boys receive proper education and nurturing at those predominately white schools. Bless their hearts.

My son is white, and has ADHD/Executive Function Disorder. It IS really difficult at home, getting homework done, staying on top of HIM staying on top of his long term projects. He isn't really receiving a lot of nurturing at school. The school isn't set up to meet the needs of kids with Executive Function Issues. He DOES lack drive (for school work) and is constantly "Late, Lost, and Unprepared".

I don't dispute that the Dalton School similarly may have had difficulties educating a child with ADHD/Executive Function Disorder. But that is a separate issue from having difficulties educating African American boys.

Agreed. My AA son has the same issues. He is very bright with a high IQ but I would not even consider a competitive school without the specialized resources to support him. It would be setting him up for failure. Nor would I push him to go to an Ivy even though I did. I could certainly have a spirited discussions about the education of black boys, but this is more about learning disabilities than anything else. And parents denial.

Agreed. Did you son get into an Ivy? If so, how did he fare?

[Anonymous]

Idris did just fine at Dalton, just not fine enough to get into an Ivy League school; like many of his classmates. I'm sure he got a great high school education and was well prepared for college. Shouldn't that be what any of us wants for our kids? On another note, I work with AA boys and girls at a school that is most decidedly not like Dalton and we have a very difficult time convincing parents of the need to get their kids evaluated for learning disabilities, even when it is so interfering with their classwork that they are struggling with basic skills. It is quite frustrating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was surprised that Dalton didn't insist that Idris have testing done for ADHD. Being a private school, they can put pressure on a family for this to happen. And how is it that the school didn't notice or make it clear that Seun had dyslexia until 4th grade? Don't they have learning specialists at elite private schools that would notice he isn't able to read and wonder why?

They can put on the pressure, but they can't make the parents have their children tested. The father said mention was made of Idris having ADHD early on but he didn't agree. It was likely the school that made this suggestion.

I suspect he only acted in 10th grade because 1. They were desperate, nothing else had worked. And they were willing to try ANYTHING with junior--the college determining year--just around the corner. Ivy by any means necessary. 2. They heard about classmates whose grades improved once they took medication. Again, Ivy by any means necessary. And if medicine would get him the Ivy grades, let's do it!

In Seun's case, they may have noticed he was a struggling reader without knowing that dyslexia was the reason. Or who knows. Maybe they did tell the parents, but when you hear everything the school tells you from the perspective of an AA parent who expects the school to single out her baby...

Both sets of parents are college educated with resources but seem so slow in acting when they could have addressed their sons diagnoses early on. They even filmed their sons academic struggles, I don't understand why they didn't get it. This wasn't just the teachers singling out their baby, their babies were demonstrating they were struggling on camera.

Why did the Brewsters just realize in 10th grade that ADHD meds help with focus and by extension grades? They are at a competitive school, by 10th grade it's usually too late to move a C average to an A average.

Maybe because, as a psychiatrist, the dad knew that ADHD in American children (and I believe especially AA children) is over-diagnosed and over-medicated? It is a very real, legitimate disease, but the diagnosis is not easy and there is a documented tendency in this country to prescribe ADHD meds to improve behavior or raise grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe because, as a psychiatrist, the dad knew that ADHD in American children (and I believe especially AA children) is over-diagnosed and over-medicated? It is a very real, legitimate disease, but the diagnosis is not easy and there is a documented tendency in this country to prescribe ADHD meds to improve behavior or raise grades.

Perhaps the dad, as a well-educated and caring psychiatrist, would seek out exceptionally well-qualified medical professionals for an assessment for his son? I would think there must be some relevant expertise in the metropolitan NYC area.

[Anonymous]

For PP upthread, while there is no Dalton in Bklyn, St. Ann's is a very highly regarded K-12 in Brooklyn Heights. Alum include Jennifer Connolly, Spike Lee, and Zac Posen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was surprised that Dalton didn't insist that Idris have testing done for ADHD. Being a private school, they can put pressure on a family for this to happen. And how is it that the school didn't notice or make it clear that Seun had dyslexia until 4th grade? Don't they have learning specialists at elite private schools that would notice he isn't able to read and wonder why?

They can put on the pressure, but they can't make the parents have their children tested. The father said mention was made of Idris having ADHD early on but he didn't agree. It was likely the school that made this suggestion.

I suspect he only acted in 10th grade because 1. They were desperate, nothing else had worked. And they were willing to try ANYTHING with junior--the college determining year--just around the corner. Ivy by any means necessary. 2. They heard about classmates whose grades improved once they took medication. Again, Ivy by any means necessary. And if medicine would get him the Ivy grades, let's do it!

In Seun's case, they may have noticed he was a struggling reader without knowing that dyslexia was the reason. Or who knows. Maybe they did tell the parents, but when you hear everything the school tells you from the perspective of an AA parent who expects the school to single out her baby...

Both sets of parents are college educated with resources but seem so slow in acting when they could have addressed their sons diagnoses early on. They even filmed their sons academic struggles, I don't understand why they didn't get it. This wasn't just the teachers singling out their baby, their babies were demonstrating they were struggling on camera.

Why did the Brewsters just realize in 10th grade that ADHD meds help with focus and by extension grades? They are at a competitive school, by 10th grade it's usually too late to move a C average to an A average.

Maybe because, as a psychiatrist, the dad knew that ADHD in American children (and I believe especially AA children) is over-diagnosed and over-medicated? It is a very real, legitimate disease, but the diagnosis is not easy and there is a documented tendency in this country to prescribe ADHD meds to improve behavior or raise grades.

I don't believe that this was Brewster's concern, it was all about him. An ADHD diagnosis would have been a poor reflection on him. He could have discussed this concern with a trusted colleague or even his own shrink instead of misdiagnosing his own son. We only witnessed a few moments of Idris struggling on screen, we weren't privy to what was actually going on with him day-to-day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For PP upthread, while there is no Dalton in Bklyn, St. Ann's is a very highly regarded K-12 in Brooklyn Heights. Alum include Jennifer Connolly, Spike Lee, and Zac Posen.

Maybe they applied to st Ann's and didn't get in or didn't get money. Dalton gave him aid.

[Anonymous]

The younger son is now at a Quaker private school in Brooklyn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The younger son is now at a Quaker private school in Brooklyn.

That's great!

[Anonymous]

Wowee -- just found the official "Discussion Guide" for this film.

http://americanpromise.org/sites/default/files/POV_DG_AmericanPromise.pdf

According to Dalton, Idris has “great difficulty with impulse control, both physically and verbally. He talks out of turn continually, has trouble respecting other students’ phys- ical boundaries.” Years later, Idris receives an official diagnosis of ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder). Why might his parents have been resistant to an ADHD di- agnosis when Idris was young? How do clinical diagnoses prevent examination of other systems at play, including racism?

Dalton’s assistant curriculum director, Martha Edelson, at- tributes some of Idris’s and Seun’s difficulties to lack of organization and time management skills, saying, “We do expect a lot of independence.” How might that expectation be based on the experiences of Dalton’s traditionally wealthy families (many of which hire teams of adults—private tutors, nannies, drivers, personal assistants and others—to help children stay on track)? Why might the school think that students of color possess weaker organizational skills than their white peers? What types of experiences outside of school help children develop independence and time management skills?

I don't know why anyone would think the school thought students of color had weaker organizational skills than their white peers. No one at the school said "Your child is black and therefore has weak organizational skills". I think they said "Your child has weak organizational skills."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wowee -- just found the official "Discussion Guide" for this film.

http://americanpromise.org/sites/default/files/POV_DG_AmericanPromise.pdf

According to Dalton, Idris has “great difficulty with impulse control, both physically and verbally. He talks out of turn continually, has trouble respecting other students’ phys- ical boundaries.” Years later, Idris receives an official diagnosis of ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder). Why might his parents have been resistant to an ADHD di- agnosis when Idris was young? How do clinical diagnoses prevent examination of other systems at play, including racism?

Dalton’s assistant curriculum director, Martha Edelson, at- tributes some of Idris’s and Seun’s difficulties to lack of organization and time management skills, saying, “We do expect a lot of independence.” How might that expectation be based on the experiences of Dalton’s traditionally wealthy families (many of which hire teams of adults—private tutors, nannies, drivers, personal assistants and others—to help children stay on track)? Why might the school think that students of color possess weaker organizational skills than their white peers? What types of experiences outside of school help children develop independence and time management skills?

I don't know why anyone would think the school thought students of color had weaker organizational skills than their white peers. No one at the school said "Your child is black and therefore has weak organizational skills". I think they said "Your child has weak organizational skills."

Those parents. Sheeze. They made Idris' lack of organization about race and wealth. Wow! Just wow! They've learned absolutely NOTHING from this experience and viewing themselves on film? Astounding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wowee -- just found the official "Discussion Guide" for this film.

http://americanpromise.org/sites/default/files/POV_DG_AmericanPromise.pdf

According to Dalton, Idris has “great difficulty with impulse control, both physically and verbally. He talks out of turn continually, has trouble respecting other students’ phys- ical boundaries.” Years later, Idris receives an official diagnosis of ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder). Why might his parents have been resistant to an ADHD di- agnosis when Idris was young? How do clinical diagnoses prevent examination of other systems at play, including racism?

Dalton’s assistant curriculum director, Martha Edelson, at- tributes some of Idris’s and Seun’s difficulties to lack of organization and time management skills, saying, “We do expect a lot of independence.” How might that expectation be based on the experiences of Dalton’s traditionally wealthy families (many of which hire teams of adults—private tutors, nannies, drivers, personal assistants and others—to help children stay on track)? Why might the school think that students of color possess weaker organizational skills than their white peers? What types of experiences outside of school help children develop independence and time management skills?

I don't know why anyone would think the school thought students of color had weaker organizational skills than their white peers. No one at the school said "Your child is black and therefore has weak organizational skills". I think they said "Your child has weak organizational skills."

And I recall that the asst director also said that if a child doesn't have their organizational skills together by sixth grade that they would have problems academically at Dalton. I have two kids at Cathedral skills and it's the same there regarding getting the organizational skills together. For example, chronically forgetting homework will negatively impact your grades. My middle class AA kids learned this lesson early. The families (of various races and socioeconomic backgrounds) with sons who were finally diagnosed with ADHD struggled with organizational issues. Ultimately, the diagnosis helped the family either decide to change schools or hire tutors. Lack of organizational and time management skills tend to go hand in hand.

[Anonymous]

20:45 I know about St. Ann's, but it's very different from Dalton. (Lena Dunham went to St. Ann's.) No grades for instance. There's also the Friends school. Not sure what else. I know many Brooklynites who send their children to privates in Manhattan, so that's not one of this couple's questionable choices. (I knew someone who commuted to the U.N. school from Scarsdale!)

[Anonymous]

The Brewsters held an informal dinner party for the black families, one mom chimed in that 95% of the AA students there had emotional issues. Were the Brewsters considered leaders among this particular group, did these families at the party also live a distance from the school and sort of considered themselves on the "outside?" One parent said that she was aware of white students with the same struggles at the school. Too bad we didn't learn the matriculation details of the other AA boys who graduated with Idris' class.

I wonder about the experience of the 5% of AA students who appeared to be succeeding, perhaps they were from affluent families or arrived at the school with coping strategies learned from their social set -- families with children who attended Dalton/a Dalton or were they the girls?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:20:45 I know about St. Ann's, but it's very different from Dalton. (Lena Dunham went to St. Ann's.) No grades for instance. There's also the Friends school. Not sure what else. I know many Brooklynites who send their children to privates in Manhattan, so that's not one of this couple's questionable choices. (I knew someone who commuted to the U.N. school from Scarsdale!)

20:45 here, yeah, I lived in the city, had friends who went to Dalton, St. Ann's, etc. FWIW, there are a lot of other privates in Brooklyn. Many parents, across the boroughs, pay for privates from K-8 and have their kids cram like hell to get into Bronx Science, Dewey, LaGuardia Music and Arts, Stuyvesant, etc. for high school. When we were applying to privates for K for our first DC, I told DH that I would not apply anywhere with a commute of more than 20-30 minutes TOPs in rush hour. Knew too many folks who felt that long commutes in HS had an adverse affect on their experiences, would've been wiling to trade less prestige for an opportunity to have friends in close proximity.