Coming to grips with gender/class implications of SAH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it sounds like a pretty darned great situation. My DH wanted a similar set-up, but doesn't make nearly enough $ to pay for any help. Then we had kids. He definitely wasn't all that hands on for #1, between the nursing and me being home on maternity leave (and then going back to work PT) and his working and he had no experience with babies. By #2 he helped a lot more with #1 (who of course was also adorable and fun and could talk and take walks and was a lot more interesting than a baby). He did do some basic stuff around the house (trash, dishes, some cooking), but I was definitely in charge of the kids and their shit (literally). Now they're both in school and I still work PT and he has definitely stepped up even more. If nothing else, they come to him and ask for him. They like him. He's fun. I think if your DH is offering to interact with them in such ways as dinner and bedtime, that's great. I don't blame him, if you can afford it, for outsourcing just about every menial task possible. Why the hell not? I would get a FT professional housekeeper/helper/nanny. Basically someone who would deal more with the house but who could also stay with baby while you headed to the gym or got your hair done. You get to be with baby with minimal chores (there will always be something, but not so much if you have someone else working away at it), then take breaks as needed. Maybe even have lunch with a friend or read a book or something!

If your DH were saying he wanted basically nothing to do with the kid, I would really worry. I think he's sensible in saying let's have kids, pay for the help for the things we don't have to do, and enjoy them as much as possible. I would make sure he understands that sometimes there's going to be times that he has to get up and be thrown up on or change the sheets or something and that's all there is to it. You can't predict those things. You can, however, get a night nurse for the first months (I would have given my teeth for that) and that person would also wash the baby's clothes and clean up the paraphernalia, etc.

If you are worried about losing your identify or your functional mind (and you should have some concern about that -- being home with a baby can be mind-numbing) do take some sort of class or join a book club or something. Honestly, I am rarely jealous, but I would be thrilled with this sort of situation. At least he's being honest, stating what he will and won't do, and offering solutions for the menial work. Wish I could afford this.

Oh, I will say I've pretty much always been PT (tho closer to FT than say 20 hours) and most of the house stuff still fell on me. Through years of nagging (sadly), we have gotten far closer to maybe 70-30 than 90-10, but even if DH does something in the house, it's rarely without prompting. But I would say that when we are both home (when), the kids are more 60-40 and that's more important for me.

Sorry for rambling -- hope this helps.

Sadly, your Asian FIL is my dad (not really, but pretty darn close). The result of growing up under this sort of household? None of my siblings likes my dad. My sister and I hate him; by brother tolerates him. I grew up feeling sorry for my mom because she had to live with him and his sexist attitudes.

Is this the way you or your DH want your children to feel about them?

[Anonymous]

You've gotten some good advice OP. Much I agree with - and I actually think the Philosophical poster is really onto something. Feeling like you and your spouse are working together / on the same team really makes a huge difference.

I'll also chime in as another very-happy PTer. I realize I'm incredibly luck to have the work setup I do (highly flexible hours, great co-workers, work I really enjoy), but working PT is hugely beneficial to my mental well being. Early on I was closer to a SAHM (<20 hrs/week), and lately I've been closer to FT, and there are pluses and minuses to every point on the spectrum. But personally, I am not cut out to be home full time non-stop, especially as there are periods where DH is working such long hours or traveling that I am doing it solo.

[Anonymous]

You should do it. My DH and I are both men so any pre-conceived notions about gender roles are out the window. We are both very successful and we love our kids (we have infant twins), but honestly there is only so much time many parents can reasonably take with just their children before needing a break. Likewise it is exhausting to work a full day and then come home and have just the "not fun" stuff to do with the kids.

If you can afford it, you should do it. We can and we do. Then again, as mentioned earlier, we have no preconceived gender roles. We just want to be good parents, good spouses and enjoy life.

[Anonymous]

Wow-such an interesting thread. OP, you sound like a very smart and thoughtful person. I tell our kids, who are school age, that we all pitch in and help because we are all part of the family. My concerns about your DH is his attitude. He should be willing to pitch in and help where necessary. If you stay home, of course you will do more childcare and housework. If you get a housekeeper you will not have to do as much, but there will still be ALOT to do. BTW I would get a full time housekeeper. A few hours a week is not enough for "me" time and help with all the other chores. It's just ridiculous and sad that your husband thinks he should be able to do the "fun" stuff and not the "menial" stuff. First of all, there is a lot of overlap, as other posters have said. The way you bond with a child is by taking care of them and nurturing them and showing you love them. Kids are messy and child rearing can be chaotic. You can't separate taking care of them and many of the "menial" jobs. It just goes with the job, unless you are some cold hearted, OCD, neurotic, hands off parent that will never bond with your child. BTW, you can't wait until they are three to bond with them. They need love, affection, and nurturing from day one. Part of nurturing is preparing their food, wiping their face, changing their diaper. Kids are work 24/7 and I wouldn't want to have a baby with a man who refuses to pitch in and help when necessary. You should both try to get "me" time but your first priority is your child. Tell him to read this thread and let us know what he has to say about the comments. Best of luck.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read all the posts, but I wonder whether your DH does anything now? Who does the laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc.?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I SAH without any nanny, helper, etc. BUT my DH does a ton. He doesn't work long hours, and most days when he gets home he takes DD so I can get dinner and maybe some cleaning done and get a bit of alone time to break up the day. Then we do bedtime together.

If I were in the situation you are contemplating, I would resent my DH greatly. In fact, I would be concerned that he is not going to be involved enough in his kids' life as I want the father of my child(ren) to be. There are really two issues here - how involved do you want your kids' dad to be in their lives, and how are you going to get some time to yourself. It concerns me that he views caring for his (future) children as menial. I think that unless you get these issues straightened out, you are going to have a long and lonely road ahead of you once you have kids, whether you SAH or WOH.

OP here. It concerns me, too. We had a long talk this weekend on exactly that topic. He made clear that he wants to spend lots of time with his children, just not doing "chores for them." I.e., he wants to play with and read to them, help them with their homework, eat and have dinner with them. He does not want to do their laundry, clean their rooms, cook their food, do their dishes, etc. We think (correct me if I'm wrong) that there is less "fun stuff to do with the kids" when they are younger, and that things might be rough figuring that out for the first few years, but that we'll be fine once they're 3-4. It seems that a lot of women here on the Board have mentioned that husbands have a hard time bonding with kids before that age.

i didn't read all the posts, but i have to disagree with this part. dd is now 2, and dh is very much bonded with her partly b/c he is involved with her life. i sah for the first year and pt wah for the second year, and dd was in daycare during the second year, so i do all the laundry, cook, and really her dishes are our dishes and i do them all, but he is involved in bedtime and gives most baths. he's not great about feeding her nutritious well-thought out meals, so i do that, but i think the bonding comes way before age 3-4. in fact, i think if it doesn't happen from the beginning, it's much harder to "create" later on. this is from experience and seeing friends' with their kids.

[Anonymous]

One of the parents at my daughter's school gave up her job (high profile government position) to stay home b/c she couldn't handle her schedule. She worked FT, had four kids and did ALL of the housework.

Her husband worked FT; that was it. She resented him.

She's at home now, doing the same tasks (child-rearing and chores), and she STILL resents him.

OP, I think your situation is a lose-lose b/c you're not in a balanced relationship to begin with. And kids to the mix, and you're basically heading toward disaster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the parents at my daughter's school gave up her job (high profile government position) to stay home b/c she couldn't handle her schedule. She worked FT, had four kids and did ALL of the housework.

Her husband worked FT; that was it. She resented him.

She's at home now, doing the same tasks (child-rearing and chores), and she STILL resents him.

OP, I think your situation is a lose-lose b/c you're not in a balanced relationship to begin with. And kids to the mix, and you're basically heading toward disaster.

Add

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the parents at my daughter's school gave up her job (high profile government position) to stay home b/c she couldn't handle her schedule. She worked FT, had four kids and did ALL of the housework.

Her husband worked FT; that was it. She resented him.

She's at home now, doing the same tasks (child-rearing and chores), and she STILL resents him.

OP, I think your situation is a lose-lose b/c you're not in a balanced relationship to begin with. And kids to the mix, and you're basically heading toward disaster.

I had a similar situation with 2 kids, but did not give up my job. Got divorced and was much happier

[Anonymous]

"Sadly, your Asian FIL is my dad (not really, but pretty darn close). The result of growing up under this sort of household? None of my siblings likes my dad. My sister and I hate him; by brother tolerates him. I grew up feeling sorry for my mom because she had to live with him and his sexist attitudes.

Is this the way you or your DH want your children to feel about them? "

Ditto, but my father is Polish. There is lots and lots of bad blood towards my father.

[Anonymous]

"Wow. Sounds like your DH has it all figured out - his career will advance and thrive, he won't have to do any "menial" childcare or house hold management tasks (though I would argue menial tasks of childcare is what makes a parent) and you give up your career and base your "me time" around his schedule. "

A total asshole, who will never change. DO NOT reproduce with this guy.

[Anonymous]

There are wealthy SAHPs, and SAHPs that are really frugal in order to do so. Sure doesn't mean you have lots and lots of money.

I've never SAH, but wanted to post to tell you that you have to know your spouse well before you can decide what to do. I chose to WOH FT for many reasons, but one of the top reasons was that I wanted a more equitable childcare work distribution. I also grew up in a household where my mother was disrespected by my father because she had no paid work, and I wanted to avoid that situation. My father did zero for childcare or inside household duties.

[Anonymous]

OP here. We both currently work long hours. There is little household work to be done. I cook occasionally and do the dishes when I do. DH is in charge of trash and putting away dishes (I nag him to do it, and then he eventually does). We each do our own laundry. We have every-other-week housecleaning service. I do all occasional household management issues (booking travel, shopping, etc.), but I work slightly fewer hours and enjoy these tasks. So it's not 50/50, but it's workable. DH never asks me to do more; it's all self-imposed.

DH is South Asian.

I had a long conversation with DH last night based on helpful posts here. Again, I totally get everyone's point that this whole conversation is theoretical until we have children and see how we feel. But I absolutely would feel remiss to not lay ground rules and get on the same general page before we get pregnant. We discussed a few key principles:

1) He needs to be home before the children go to bed if at all possible. He should spend that time with the children. If the children are throwing a temper tantrum, or breaking lamps, or spilling milk while he is with them, he is "on" for that time to deal with it or help deal with it. I will do whatever evening tasks need to be done away from the children so that his priority is being with them (dishes, last-minute laundry, etc.), but he won't be just handing the kids off when they make a mess or are difficult. He agrees 100% about spending time with the children -- doesn't totally understand what kind of messes it will involve, but gets the idea. He wants to do bath and bedtime.

2) We'll hire as much help as I want during the week to ensure that there's not too much household "menial" (sorry, lack of a better word) work to be done in the evenings and weekends so that is quality time with the children/down time. This is the key for him. He does not want to be cooking and vacuuming and similar.

3) When the children are young, I am fine taking primary responsibility for cooking (which I enjoy) and diaper changing (eh, I'm not winning that fight), but he must do it often enough to be competent and comfortable at feeding and cleaning the children so that they are okay when I need a day off or travel or etc. He's never going to be able to handle much more than microwaving baby food or toasting a bagel, but I'm okay with that.

4) When the children aren't sleeping through the night, he will take night duty a couple times a week (one weekend and once during the week?) to ensure that I get quality sleep.

5) He prefers I stay home, but understands I may not want to. If I keep working, my field allows me to make enough money that we can increase the amount of household help to try to preserve the quality time aspects for both of us.

6) He says he totally thinks I would get "the short end of the stick" in this arrangement, but that he loves his job and it just doesn't allow him to take primary caregiver responsibility (he does love his job, he's great at it, and I love that he loves it). The "reward for me", he says, is that when the children are in school, or grown, and I there is free time to be had, if I want to not go back to work and just relax and volunteer and take classes while he keeps working, I can. I told him I had no idea how I felt about that kind of arrangement (makes me uncomfortable), and he says it's totally up to me whether I want to go back to contributing financially to the household or not (assuming our financial picture stays stable). All he "requires" is that I continue to do the cooking and cleaning. Gr, but yes, I knew that going in.

So, again, I know this is all theoretical, and I know things will adapt and he'll push back at various points, but do these sound like good ground rules for getting my old-fashioned husband to be a reasonable father and husband?

[Anonymous]

OP here. Sorry, one more thing. I have been really surprised in my convos with DH at how much he seems to really "get" that being SAHP is hard, thankless work and that he would really value what I personally would bring to the children in this role (i.e., he doesn't see my job as childcare just like a nanny could provide). He knows it would be hard on me to not have constant adult company and continue on an ambitious career path. I was really very touched that he realized that (even while being totally unwilling to take that role himself). Does that type of appreciation hold up once actually in the daily grind with young children?

[Anonymous]

OP, I'm one of the pp's and honestly I find some of what you write in this update quite disturbing, but maybe I just don't understand the culture (or more precisely, the men in the culture). #6 is particularly troubling--he basically admits this is a bad deal for you (for what, 20 years??) but says oh well, I don't want to change anything about my life so this is the way it will be.

It's nice and all that he's offering to take night duty a couple times a week, but frankly, this is not the kind of thing you can really plan/commit to in advance. I'd be much more focused on whether his heart and soul are invested in having and raising a child, and whether he is willing to rework his own life at all to accommodate a family. It doesn't sound like he is. And worse, he expects you to make major changes that will permanently impact your ability to be employed, whether that's what you want or not.