Coming to grips with gender/class implications of SAH

[Anonymous]

Your husband is delusional. Becoming a parent is likely to rock his world. And if his world is un-rockable, then that will be really tough.

I am a mom to 2 kids now. I work at a job, but am thinking of giving it up. Becoming a parent has definitely caused me to loosen up on some of my more ideological values about gender roles. For example, my husband is more likely to take out the trash and pack the car, while I am more likely to wash the tablecloth or bake granola. But since my husband is a super involved and useful guy, its all working out fine.

Do you have friends with kids? It might be good for your husband to spend time with some other dads - and he would likely see that the norm for today is to have both parents highly involved with childcare tasks.

[Anonymous]

"but that we'll be fine once they're 3-4. It seems that a lot of women here on the Board have mentioned that husbands have a hard time bonding with kids before that age. "

Wow! Can I have a 3-4 year pass for bonding with my kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. It concerns me, too. We had a long talk this weekend on exactly that topic. He made clear that he wants to spend lots of time with his children, just not doing "chores for them." I.e., he wants to play with and read to them, help them with their homework, eat and have dinner with them. He does not want to do their laundry, clean their rooms, cook their food, do their dishes, etc. We think (correct me if I'm wrong) that there is less "fun stuff to do with the kids" when they are younger, and that things might be rough figuring that out for the first few years, but that we'll be fine once they're 3-4. It seems that a lot of women here on the Board have mentioned that husbands have a hard time bonding with kids before that age.

OP, the thing is, for several years, many of the things your kids will need done are more chores than hanging out with them. Our daughter is 16 months and there is still a lot of diaper changing, cleaning up messes, helping with baths, brushing her teeth for her, doing her laundry, etc. We have taught her how to throw away her own diapers and how to help put on her own clothing (with hilarious mixed results like pants as hats and such), but she still gets food in her hair.

I think that a lot of times, dads have a hard time bonding with babies both because they are not baby people (I am the longwinded poster above, btw) but also because they are taught from the beginning of parenting that infancy is mom time - when only mom can feed the baby or comfort the baby, when only mom can know what the baby needs. This just hasn't been our experience, though there are definitely times when our daughter wants me and will have nothing to do with him, there are now times when she completely rejects me in favor of "DA DA!!" who is all fun, all the time.

How much experience does your DH have with kids? Of whatever ages?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Wow. Sounds like your DH has it all figured out - his career will advance and thrive, he won't have to do any "menial" childcare or house hold management tasks (though I would argue menial tasks of childcare is what makes a parent) and you give up your career and base your "me time" around his schedule. "

How is the boredom and drudgery of childcare and housework "parenting"?

Well, if you are only there for moments when the sun shines down on you and your angel child, and the fun, non-tantrumy baths, then no, not a real parent. The husband sounds like he's not up for the very real tedious moments of parenting - staying up all night with a sick kid, cleaning up their vomit, being woken up by a child who needs you, the tantrums, the picky eating nights, etc.

This is not a working or don't work thing. I WOHM and am damn proud of it, so not suggesting OP's husband should quit his job to be a parent. But saying, even before kids, that he doesn't want the "menial" tasks and only wants the fun times with the kids SCREAMS to me that he is not ready to be a dad. And he's got it all work out. He'll spawn his seed, the wifey will raise the kids, and he'll bring home the money and pose for the pics when the kids are cute and smiling and happy.

[Anonymous]

Whether you work at home or outside the home, you'll both be parents during non-work hours. The big question is what your roles will be when you're both home.

Even with outside help, it's really tough to schedule all the drudgery so that it will occur during his working hours. So, when you're home together in the evening, will he help out with the chores that will inevitably occur? Is he planning to co-parent, or will you be on duty 24/7 (minus the hours with help) to do things like stay up with a sick baby? Will he be willing to strip and wash the sheets when said baby barfs at 2 a.m.? Will he help with potty training on the weekend, or will that be your territory? Are you solely in charge of preparing snacks and diaper bag so that he can take his pet (I mean child) out to do the fun things?

It's a fine line between the drudgery of kids and the pleasure of kids. It's not fun to clean up a baby covered in pureed peas, but it's a joy to introduce them to solid foods. I think if he intends to bow out of all the drudgery, he's going to miss out on the day-to-day joys of parenting. Right now, it sounds like he'd be just as happy being the child's uncle or grandfather, there just when he wants to be.

[Anonymous]

OP, I do what you are describing. I will warn you that it's tough. I end up using my nanny time (12 hours) for grocery store and target runs, showering, laundry, trips to the dry cleaner, doctor's appointments, etc. I almost never have time to get my nails done or get a haircut, and I certainly don't have time to take a class for myself or volunteer.
I think that it would be very tough to carve out a lot of "me time" (to do something that takes a few hours) and get all of the other chores done unless you have a nanny at least 1/2 time. When the kids are small they are portable, but once they get older (+ 6 months) they need naps and aren't that thrilled to hop in and out of the car all day. I end up doing all of my errands during my "me time" and doing kid classes and trips to the park/zoo etc. on the other days.
I think that it's good that you guys are talking about it ahead of time, but also remember that there are virtually NO fun things that babies do for the first 4 months. Are you ok with doing every feed, every diaper, every bath, etc? It sounds like your husband doesn't really know what goes into parenting. Your hours will likely be 6 am - 10 pm and then up in the middle of the night too. Just something to think about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We're TTC, and strongly considering having me SAH once we have children for various reasons. Suffice it to say that SAH is something we both would like to work out, and we can do so financially. My primary concern is that I would end up essentially never having a break from the childcare tedium 6:00 a.m. till 10:00 p.m every single day (at least while the children are young). My husband, on the other hand, would see his job as WOH. Full stop. In other words, my hours would end up being longer than his due to the morning/evening routines. And I would resent it.

I spoke with DH about this, and he understands my point. He wants me to have "me time," but does not think it should come at the expense of any of his "me time"/downtime in the mornings and evenings. He envisions doing the "fun" things with the kids -- eating dinner and/or breakfast, reading bedtime stories, and maybe doing baths -- but not doing any "menial" work at all to relieve my burden. Instead, he suggests we hire a PT nanny or helper for a couple hours a day or a couple times a week so that I have my own downtime (we can afford to do this). He suggests I use this downtime to do whatever I need and find fulfilling, no questions asked: take language lessons, veg in front of the TV, do a book club, go drinking with friends, etc.

This arrangement seems very rational and perfect to him. I appreciate that he understands my concerns and is trying to find a way to meet them (notably, without compromising his own desires for evening/morning downtime and to avoid true household tasks). But I'm not sure how to feel about it. I worry that I will resent him for an arrangement that so strenuously reinforces gender roles. I worry that I will feel overly-privileged, spoiled, and diva-y for having PT help as discussed when I don't work outside the home. (I was raised lower-middle-class with parents who shared parenting roles pretty much 50/50. This just seems very foreign to me.)

Above all, I know that I am extraordinarily lucky to be in the position to have these options. I really do, because my parents didn't have them, and my siblings don't have them. But I'm just scared about how I'll feel exercising these options and living a life so foreign to how I grew up.

HE he- he's in for a treat when you actually have toddlers. Yes, make these his responsibilities NOW. get a contract.

[Anonymous]

Did he actually use the word menial when he was describing the arrangement he envisions? I know that would really rub me the wrong way...so it's okay for you to be doing all the menial work? He considers the day to day pieces of parenting to be menial tasks that are beneath him? I'd have a really hard time accepting that mindset. I have several friends who stay at home and are very happy with it, because it works well for their families...but none in which the parent who works outside the home does absolutely none of the "menial" parenting tasks.

[Anonymous]

Honestly, OP, my take is that it's good to have these conversations early but it's not good to overthink things before you're even pregnant. Same goes for us reading the tea leaves on your husband's intentions. Lots of people have very definite ideas of how things should or will work once they have kids; most of us wind up shifting those ideas or reformulating our plans based on the reality once it presents itself. If you're not even pregnant yet you are at minimum about a year away from having to deal with these realities - maybe longer. In that time a lot can change, including your ideas and preferences, and once you and your husband actually become parents, it's not unlikely that whatever you thought you knew will go out the window. It's not to suggest that you shouldn't plan, just don 't wrap yourself around the axle of ideological presumptions and tests of your husband's parenting interest until/unless you're actually there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're TTC, and strongly considering having me SAH once we have children for various reasons. Suffice it to say that SAH is something we both would like to work out, and we can do so financially. My primary concern is that I would end up essentially never having a break from the childcare tedium 6:00 a.m. till 10:00 p.m every single day (at least while the children are young). My husband, on the other hand, would see his job as WOH. Full stop. In other words, my hours would end up being longer than his due to the morning/evening routines. And I would resent it.

I spoke with DH about this, and he understands my point. He wants me to have "me time," but does not think it should come at the expense of any of his "me time"/downtime in the mornings and evenings. He envisions doing the "fun" things with the kids -- eating dinner and/or breakfast, reading bedtime stories, and maybe doing baths -- but not doing any "menial" work at all to relieve my burden. Instead, he suggests we hire a PT nanny or helper for a couple hours a day or a couple times a week so that I have my own downtime (we can afford to do this). He suggests I use this downtime to do whatever I need and find fulfilling, no questions asked: take language lessons, veg in front of the TV, do a book club, go drinking with friends, etc.

This arrangement seems very rational and perfect to him. I appreciate that he understands my concerns and is trying to find a way to meet them (notably, without compromising his own desires for evening/morning downtime and to avoid true household tasks). But I'm not sure how to feel about it. I worry that I will resent him for an arrangement that so strenuously reinforces gender roles. I worry that I will feel overly-privileged, spoiled, and diva-y for having PT help as discussed when I don't work outside the home. (I was raised lower-middle-class with parents who shared parenting roles pretty much 50/50. This just seems very foreign to me.)

Above all, I know that I am extraordinarily lucky to be in the position to have these options. I really do, because my parents didn't have them, and my siblings don't have them. But I'm just scared about how I'll feel exercising these options and living a life so foreign to how I grew up.

HE he- he's in for a treat when you actually have toddlers. Yes, make these his responsibilities NOW. get a contract.

Totally agree with the HEE HEE poster. Not that I expect this guy to have a clue about parenting at this stage in his life because a lot of us don't fully get it until we are there (and luckily that whole unconditional love and bond with your kid makes up for the unpleasant surprises), but this is getting amusing. It just sounds like this guy is trying to control everything on the outset and he has this really, really unrealistic idea of what it's like to be a parent. And the fact is, your kid doesn't go to the "fun uncle" when he is really scared, really unsure, really needs to feel secure. So in a way this dad is setting himself up for not having a close relationship with his kid. But, it clearly works for a ton of dads out there who let their SAH wives do all the parenting and "support" their career. So at least they will have plenty of company in their dysfunction.

[Anonymous]

Ugh. OP, I think that you are going to find a lot of women in this area who have accepted and justify to themselves your potential arrangement because DH works in BigLaw. In total honesty, the arrangement is a bitter pill to swallow for those of us who have been raised to achieve and compete on an equal playing field as men. And I say this as someone who now WOTH but at one point seriously contemplating giving up my career to SAH.

The problems

1) DH may be at work from 6-10, but he can use the bathroom whenever he wants, go out to lunch with his buddies, shoot the sh-- when friends stop by the office, read or listen to the radio on the commute to and from, have adult conversations all day long, etc., etc. SAH life, especially with young kids, results in VERY LITTLE DOWN TIME for you. Especially if DH expects you to do the day-to-day cleaning, decluttering, hiring contractors, etc., etc. You never know if you are going to have an easy baby, or a hard one, or if you'll have twins, even. Or twins with colic--nightmare, but not uncommon! Also, who will be doing the night waking and changings? I would be super resentful, if I were you.

2) DH seems OK with being a favorite uncle, rather than a father. He can do the fun stuff, but none of the "menial" chores (which he seems all to OK with you having to do--WTF?). Sorry, but he needs to feed (and mealtimes, unlike what DH fantasizes, are not fun when kids are young. It's three-quarters cleaning, 1/8 cajoling, and 1/8 eating).

3) SAHMs are financially screwed if you end up divorced.

[Anonymous]

You've gotten a ton of good advice and here is mine: Figure it out BEFORE you have kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think you sound that lucky. Your husband is a high earner but he doesn't sound like he's cut out for the dad thing. This post screamed of red flags to me.

same here.
get a new man and then TTC

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thought I would respond to a few points. This has been really helpful for me. Please continue helping me to think this through.

1. Neither DH nor I have any experience with kids. We are flying blind here. All I know I've learned from DCUM (Lord, help me). He grew up in a culture where all the wives do all the work all the time, fathers are absent bread-winners, and he thinks he's being reasonable and compromising based on the families he knows (and, to be fair, he is based on the families he knows). He claims the men he works with have the same arrangement, but of course he really has no idea, does he?

2. Yes, DH uses the term "menial" to describe laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc. He wants nothing to do with it. I need to get a better understanding of where wiping peas off the children, giving them medicine and comforting them when they're sick, etc. falls on his spectrum of "fun" versus "menial." I suspect he'll say that if it involves the kids themselves, he'll take the good with the bad, but that he doesn't want the indirect-child-care work. Definitely need to find that out.

3. BTW, my husband doesn't necessarily want me to do menial work either. He says (and means it) that he'd be happy to just hire in full-time housekeeping and cleaning service as needed. He believes in outsourcing everything possible -- that's what they do in the home country. :-/ That is distasteful to me and not the way I want my children raised.

3. Part-time work seems like a bad option to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have a husband who doesn't want to do anything around the house -- we will fight and end up in a situation where I do almost all the work. So the solution is to give myself outside work in addition to the housework? How is that a solution? Additionally, part-time work is not available in my current field so I'd have to radically readjust. And I'm skeptical (see prior poster's note) that intellectually satisfying part-time work exists anyway.

5. We are talking about this now because I think it's important to set expectations and obviously, we have some work to do given the different places we come from. I don't want either of us to be completely caught off guard or have an unrealistic view of things. If we can't reach something that seems likely to work, we'll put off having children while we work through it or maybe stop TTC (we're just starting now).

[Anonymous]

OP, here is a common misunderstanding:

Many working dads whose wives stay home think the parenting split should be, oh, 25-dad and 75-mom, while the SAHMs shoot for 50-50. They are both wrong. It should be 100% for both.

Of course, the amount of time away from home factors into how much the actual physical tasks of parenting get divvied up. But fatherhood is 100%, 24-7, 365, til your last breath. OP, your husband's compartmentalizing is BS, an intellectual exercise, an illusion.

Your hoped-for children need to see their parents in service to one another, and unconditionally in service to them. Loving parenthood is all about the little selfless acts. Your kids need to see their dad as someone who cherishes their mother, who is not "above" any child-related task, and who is strong in patience and generosity.

Parenting is not a contract you draw up with your spouse and your kids. It is a relationship, falling in love. I am glad to see you are trying to keep communication open, but I am afraid your framework is off.

Signed,
Mom of many, whose husband works two high-stress jobs with long hours, who shoulders most of the actual work without any outside help, but who feels completely valued and supported by the father of her children

PS. My married brothers all work professional jobs with long hours while their wives care for their little ones without help. Only one marriage has any strain, and that is the brother who subscribes to your husband's "plan.".