Coming to grips with gender/class implications of SAH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am SAHM with a PT nanny and cleaning service. My advice is to get over hang up on class. Your life is what it is. At the end of the day, yes, there are some negative class implications but I decided after 3 hours of bad sleep (we have an infant & toddler), I no longer cared. I wanted sleep. People may think I am lazy or a bad mommy but I just no longer care.

As for the gender implications, once children enter the picture few marriages (between a man & woman) are equal, so say sociologists who study marriages. (Gay couples, if I remember correctly, are far more equal in their division of household/child rearing labor.) Good luck!

But it doesn't HAVE to be that way. And in a lot of families it isn't. Yes, when one parent stays home and one works that tends to reinforce things but in many families where both families work, there are not stereotypical gender roles. I outearn my DH by a little. He does most of the cooking and puts most of the laundry away, is in charge of packing kid lunches and is preschool volunteer because of his work location and schedule. Of course, he does handle the lawn and trash, and I tend to make the pediatrician appointments and the "research" on things, so there is that.

And I think even in families where the mom stays home, there CAN be more equality then 30 years ago. Frankly, I don't think it's a gender thing so much as a job demand thing, and because dads tend to stay in the workforce and the mom is the one who stays home in families where one parent stays home, it looks like a gender thing. But whether it is mom or dad working the long hours, that parent is not as involved. And that is why we have worked hard to avoid those pitfills, but I get tht it's not possible or desired in every famiy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have five kids. I gave up my career to stay-at-home after our first was born. My husband works long hours in a demanding, high stress job. We've been married 25 years.

So, my thoughts: First, you are over thinking this. Neither of you have any idea what type of pregnancy, childbirth, or kids you'll have. The conversation itself is good. But stressing out about the details is silly.

If you stay-at-home, your job becomes managing your home. That means cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, errands, childcare, maybe managing the household finances, ..... all things associated with managing your home. It's unfair to expect your husband to come in from work, eat supper, then clean toilets. Of course he'll change a dirty diaper or soothe a tired baby. I'm sure he'll help with bath time and bedtime. And he'll likely have no problem helping you clean up after supper. But if he works outside the home and you work at home, he shouldn't have to contribute much to the housework. Do you go to work with him and help him during the day?

Like an earlier poster said, it's never 50/50. Both parents give 100% when they can. There will be times when your husband has to work late or travel and you'll be doing it all. There will be times when you are sick and he'll have to take over. There will be times when the kids are sick when you'll both have to do more. Life happens. And in a healthy marriage there is no tit-for-tat.

For what it's worth, I never felt like I needed a housekeeper nor a nanny. I don't see anything wrong with getting help if you want it. But honestly, it's not that difficult if you look at your responsibilities as a stay-at-home mother the same way you would a paying job. My goal everyday is to maintain an organized, clean, peaceful home for myself, my husband and my kids. That takes time, planning, preparation, and effort. But I absolutely love it! And at the end of the day, I know I'm doing what's best for our family.

Full tiem working mom here and I totally agree with you. This is the reason why I went back to work becasue I did not want tmy job to be managing my home. BTW, this is also why I hate the term SAHM. You are not really a stay at home mom, you are a housewife or if you prefer house manager.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whether you work at home or outside the home, you'll both be parents during non-work hours. The big question is what your roles will be when you're both home.

Even with outside help, it's really tough to schedule all the drudgery so that it will occur during his working hours. So, when you're home together in the evening, will he help out with the chores that will inevitably occur? Is he planning to co-parent, or will you be on duty 24/7 (minus the hours with help) to do things like stay up with a sick baby? Will he be willing to strip and wash the sheets when said baby barfs at 2 a.m.? Will he help with potty training on the weekend, or will that be your territory? Are you solely in charge of preparing snacks and diaper bag so that he can take his pet (I mean child) out to do the fun things?

It's a fine line between the drudgery of kids and the pleasure of kids. It's not fun to clean up a baby covered in pureed peas, but it's a joy to introduce them to solid foods. I think if he intends to bow out of all the drudgery, he's going to miss out on the day-to-day joys of parenting. Right now, it sounds like he'd be just as happy being the child's uncle or grandfather, there just when he wants to be.

Amen.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read all the posts but OP, you did say that your DH suggested outsourcing all cleaning, cooking, etc. This was "distasteful" to you. Well, that's your choice, but if he's willing to offer full-time paid help and you just don't want it, I don't think you can then expect him to pick up the slack. Trust me, if you can get significant help with the not-directly-child-related menial tasks such as cleaning, cooking, laundry, and errands, you will not find the child-related tasks to be overly burdensome. You may still want some babysitting help a few hours a week, but on the whole you will be able to avoid a lot of the drudgery and still spend tons of quality time with your kid. Then when your DH comes home he can do the same. I don't see what's distasteful about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all the posts but OP, you did say that your DH suggested outsourcing all cleaning, cooking, etc. This was "distasteful" to you. Well, that's your choice, but if he's willing to offer full-time paid help and you just don't want it, I don't think you can then expect him to pick up the slack. Trust me, if you can get significant help with the not-directly-child-related menial tasks such as cleaning, cooking, laundry, and errands, you will not find the child-related tasks to be overly burdensome. You may still want some babysitting help a few hours a week, but on the whole you will be able to avoid a lot of the drudgery and still spend tons of quality time with your kid. Then when your DH comes home he can do the same. I don't see what's distasteful about that.

Amen, I have two kids and the only tasks that we have not outsourced is cooking and grocery shopping and even if my husband were pickup up 50% of the chores I still would not want to do it.

[Anonymous]

OP, your DH sounds hopelessly antiquated. Why does he think that the way that his culture splits childcare is the preferable one?

Also, you say that all the families he knows have traditional divisions of labor. How is this possible in DC?

Finally, note that men tend to compare themselves to their fathers whereas women tend to compare themselves to their peers when it comes to childrearing. The standards today are much different than they were for our parents' generation.

[Anonymous]

Haven't read all the replies OP but this is the setup we plan on having.

[Anonymous]

OP, I have not read all the previous posts, so I apologize if this is repetitive (and a stream of conscious rant). I am a DH (or at least an H) to a SAHM. I must say, the deal your husband proposes is pretty one-sided. I work long hours (7-6 every day - that's in the office, not including commuting time) and I often put my daughter to bed, cook dinner, straighten up, etc. when I get home. We alternate (roughly) bath and bedtime every night, and whomever is not doing bath and bed is finishing up dinner (for the adults). Your husband is being extraordinarily selfish - he wants to have kids, but not have it impact his life at all. That's nto how it works. He's do the fun stuff, but when one needs a diaper change, or is crying, he gives the baby to you? When one is sick, youi're the only one who gets up? What about weekends - are the kids your sole responsibility then as well? Basically, you work 7 days a week, except for the time he hires part time help, just so he doesn't have to shoulder any real responsibility?

What happens if you go back to work - would he be a fully-engaged co-parent then? Ir woudl he expect all the after-work care to be your responsibility as well? I bet it's the later. Again - very selfish. Lots of parenting is a drag. You shoulder that burden while he's at work. When you're both home, it gets split - sometimes evenly, sometimes not. But there's no expectation that the SAHM is responsible for all kid-stuff, all the time. At least, nto until the kids go somewhere else to sleep every night, and are away all weekend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I SAH without any nanny, helper, etc. BUT my DH does a ton. He doesn't work long hours, and most days when he gets home he takes DD so I can get dinner and maybe some cleaning done and get a bit of alone time to break up the day. Then we do bedtime together.

If I were in the situation you are contemplating, I would resent my DH greatly. In fact, I would be concerned that he is not going to be involved enough in his kids' life as I want the father of my child(ren) to be. There are really two issues here - how involved do you want your kids' dad to be in their lives, and how are you going to get some time to yourself. It concerns me that he views caring for his (future) children as menial. I think that unless you get these issues straightened out, you are going to have a long and lonely road ahead of you once you have kids, whether you SAH or WOH.

My advice, worry about this after you get pregnant.

After is too late
Before is better

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As for the gender implications, once children enter the picture few marriages (between a man & woman) are equal, so say sociologists who study marriages. (Gay couples, if I remember correctly, are far more equal in their division of household/child rearing labor.) Good luck!

I agree with this poster that you have to get over the class thing. You apparently have money now. You are a sadist and a masochist if you don't use it to make your life and your DH's life happier. You can, in fact, literally "buy happiness" by outsourcing the work that neither of you wants to do and will argue about and ruin your marriage over.

As to the gender thing ... Oy. Well, you knew what you were getting into on that when you married him, right? But presumably he knew what he was getting into as well by not marrying a girl from whatever culture he is from. Compromise is not going to equal 50/50 on the "woman's work" for you two. But I disagree with the poster that just because she knows his position, she must suck it up. He knows her position. Why isn't he sucking it up and learning how to change a diaper?

I didn't say she needs to suck it up. I was merely stating that most studies of equality in marriage seem to lose it when children enter the picture. Like OP, I married someone from a different culture. It is very difficult for men from other cultures to just suddenly become "Modern American fathers" because they lack the model for it. While my DH loves our children his father was uninvolved so he lacks any role model for behavior. On top of it, there is some cultural baggage about gender roles. We had these gender role arguments for years now. He has adapted a bit but somethings aren't going to change for a while. Personally, if any women solve these issues I think they are obligated to post back how they achieved it! Most likely, he won't be changing diapers. My DH changed probably less than a dozen with our kids. But yes, I 100% agree with you; he needs to suck it up. Sadly, theory and reality are often worlds apart.

[Anonymous]

What about discipline, OP? Have you guys discussed that at all? That is certainly not one of the "fun" parts of parenting, but where it is necessary for both parents to be on the same page and 100% consistent if you want a chance for success. Are you going to do all of it while he takes over once it's time to go to the pool? Will you be the bad cop and he gets to be the good cop all the time? I can guarantee that will create major resentment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As for the gender implications, once children enter the picture few marriages (between a man & woman) are equal, so say sociologists who study marriages. (Gay couples, if I remember correctly, are far more equal in their division of household/child rearing labor.) Good luck!

I agree with this poster that you have to get over the class thing. You apparently have money now. You are a sadist and a masochist if you don't use it to make your life and your DH's life happier. You can, in fact, literally "buy happiness" by outsourcing the work that neither of you wants to do and will argue about and ruin your marriage over.

As to the gender thing ... Oy. Well, you knew what you were getting into on that when you married him, right? But presumably he knew what he was getting into as well by not marrying a girl from whatever culture he is from. Compromise is not going to equal 50/50 on the "woman's work" for you two. But I disagree with the poster that just because she knows his position, she must suck it up. He knows her position. Why isn't he sucking it up and learning how to change a diaper?

I didn't say she needs to suck it up. I was merely stating that most studies of equality in marriage seem to lose it when children enter the picture. Like OP, I married someone from a different culture. It is very difficult for men from other cultures to just suddenly become "Modern American fathers" because they lack the model for it. While my DH loves our children his father was uninvolved so he lacks any role model for behavior. On top of it, there is some cultural baggage about gender roles. We had these gender role arguments for years now. He has adapted a bit but somethings aren't going to change for a while. Personally, if any women solve these issues I think they are obligated to post back how they achieved it! Most likely, he won't be changing diapers. My DH changed probably less than a dozen with our kids. But yes, I 100% agree with you; he needs to suck it up. Sadly, theory and reality are often worlds apart.

Yeah, sorry, the second paragraph about the gender thing was in response to all the "look what kind of guy you married, sucks for you" posters, not to you. Certainly, it does suck that OP and her husband are coming at this from different perspectives, but insisting that "he won't change" and therefore she needs to completely sacrifice her vision of a family is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I just want to say again that this has been a really, really helpful conversation. I appreciate all of the insight about ways to think about the issue. I particularly appreciate the unanimity that I am being ridiculous about the PT help thing- I guess if DCUM doesn't judge, it must be okay. And I now understand better what the real discussion with my husband needs to be, which is not about the "menial" chores of dishes and leftover laundry (because that can be outsourced or done during the day), but about the split of disciplining and parenting the children (versus being a "lazy boy dad" as PPs put it) in the evenings.

[Anonymous]

OP, out of curiosity, how do things work now? Do you do all the cooking, cleaning, etc? I mean, I know you can have a housekeeper, but unless she's live-in and you have a personal chef there are still tasks that need to be done. Do you feel like you shoulder the burden of the household? Does it bother you if you do?

There are a few things your husband proposes that I see no problem with. For example, being a SAHM and having part-time (or even, if you want it, full-time) help. That's your perogative and if you can afford it and it makes you a saner, happier, calmer person who can spend more quality time with her kids, I don't see the issue.

I also think it's fine to outsource as much as possible. Sure, get a weekly housecleaner, or have her come every day if you like. Nothing wrong with that.

The problem with your DH's vision is that while this can certainly help, unless you literally have a baby nurse living in your house round the clock, there will always be something "menial" to deal with. I second pp's comments about sick children, dirty children, crying children, etc. Kids need care. And yeah, maybe it gets easier once they're 4 (we only have a 2-year-old right now, so I can't say), but are you really willing to wait that long for your husband to be an active parent?

There's also a difference between having someone vaccuum your living room and do your laundry, and care for your kids. Does your DH want you to have a live-in nanny (or two, since it sounds like he needs someone available constantly)? I would try to talk to him more about this, about what exactly he imagines.

Also, it may sound strange, but some of the tenderest, most loving, most memorable moments I've had with my son have been what your DH would definitely qualify as "menial." One day he caught a flu and was up most of the night throwing up. I moved him to our bed, DH moved to the guest room, and I sat up all night with this miserable one-year-old wiping vomit off him, nursing him, and changing the sheets. It doesn't sound very pleasant but there was something about being there for him and comforting him when he needed it so badly that was remarkable.

I'd also totally disagree with you about part-time work. I work 4 days a week and it's a fabulous balance.

[Anonymous]

You just don't know how you are going to feel about staying home until you get there. That said, I think your husband is creating a horrible situation that will breed resentment and damage your marriage, whether you stay home or not. You will be a single mom for all the tough stuff. I would resolve this through counseling before you get pregnant.