Coming to grips with gender/class implications of SAH

[Anonymous]

OP - I think it is fine to discuss this ahead of time to some degree, but you are not yet even pregnant. You have NO IDEA what it will feel like when you have a baby or babies. You may want to stay home, you may not. You may want to outsource, you may not. You may LOVE ebing the diaper wiping, food cooking, playdate mommy or you may not. If you love and respect each other, you will find a way to work it out.

[Anonymous]

20:15: it doesn't sound very respectful to refer to the child-rearing work as "menial" and insist that she do all of it.

Even if there's not that much work to be done, you will find yourself resentful if the default is that you do ALL of it. I WOH and sometimes it pisses me off if I am doing all of the work (even if it's just 45 minutes of straightening up after dinner). It's hard to explain - if we were each doing something I wouldn't feel bad, but it makes my blood boil to be the one doing all the cleaning/cooking while my husband watches TV. (I'm not talking about having one day where you need to chill and let your partner take over...I mean like, every day...which is what it sounds like you're signing up for.)

Fortunately, my husband noticed my blood boiling and he doesn't do that much anymore

[Anonymous]

I would never have children with this man. Even if you have help, this is what your marriage will look like. Child wakes up at 2am throwing up. He rolls over and goes back to sleep, you comfort, clean, change the sheets. Repeat times two. Child spills milk at the table, he keeps eating, you leap up and mop it up. He is done eating by the time you sit back down. You are sick with the flu, the children go without baths for days.

Of course, I work and so does my husband, and we share duties equally. The love and trust my children have for my husband as the result of him doing the "menial" stuff for them is priceless. When I watch my husband as he carefully packs his kids' lunches in the morning and remembers to include note on the napkin, my heart swells with love and gratitude that he is such a great guy. Your husband doesn't realize he will be missing out. The "fun" stuff is not where the real love happens. That's just the frosting, not the cake.

[Anonymous]

Read all of the above and just want to ask: what happens when you have more than one kid? You are nursing baby. Toddler is cranky because he refused to nap, but wants to have a snack, needs help undoing his pants to try going potty, then gets pee all over the floor. Does he leave that for you to deal with? Maybe your newborn will wake up if you try to move him off you--what would your H do??

[Anonymous]

And for the PP who said it isn't fair to expect her husband to come home and clean the toilet, what do you think those of us who work do? Somehow, my husband and I both work full time and manage to come home and get it all done including, yes, cleaning toilets. And a lot of the guys I work with at my law firm are very hands on with household tasks (there is a clear divide between the ones whose wives work and the ones who don't, although they guys with SAH wives aren't any more successful as far as I can tell. They may grind out more hours but that is about it.) If this works for you I guess that is your business, but better you than me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would never have children with this man. Even if you have help, this is what your marriage will look like. Child wakes up at 2am throwing up. He rolls over and goes back to sleep, you comfort, clean, change the sheets. Repeat times two. Child spills milk at the table, he keeps eating, you leap up and mop it up. He is done eating by the time you sit back down. You are sick with the flu, the children go without baths for days.

Of course, I work and so does my husband, and we share duties equally. The love and trust my children have for my husband as the result of him doing the "menial" stuff for them is priceless. When I watch my husband as he carefully packs his kids' lunches in the morning and remembers to include note on the napkin, my heart swells with love and gratitude that he is such a great guy. Your husband doesn't realize he will be missing out. The "fun" stuff is not where the real love happens. That's just the frosting, not the cake.

Totally and 100% agree with this. What kills me is when DH uses the cookie cutter to cut our daughter's sandwich into a heart, when I didn't even realize we HAD heart cookie cutters. Could not be more different than how I grew up with a dad who always worked and left child-raising to my mom.

But even if you don't work OP, you need to think about whether you want to strive for this for your kids (having an involved dad AND mom) or if you are content with having a breadwinner husband who isn't that involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I SAH without any nanny, helper, etc. BUT my DH does a ton. He doesn't work long hours, and most days when he gets home he takes DD so I can get dinner and maybe some cleaning done and get a bit of alone time to break up the day. Then we do bedtime together.

If I were in the situation you are contemplating, I would resent my DH greatly. In fact, I would be concerned that he is not going to be involved enough in his kids' life as I want the father of my child(ren) to be. There are really two issues here - how involved do you want your kids' dad to be in their lives, and how are you going to get some time to yourself. It concerns me that he views caring for his (future) children as menial. I think that unless you get these issues straightened out, you are going to have a long and lonely road ahead of you once you have kids, whether you SAH or WOH.

I agree with this 100%. It's not just about the "me time". It's about how involved you both will be in your family life. That includes managing the home and of course, spending time with the children.

There's no right or wrong answer here. There are plenty of women on DCUM who would KILL for the opportunity to be a SAHM with some part-time help, even if it meant their husband would have to work a ton and be hands-off, except on the margins. However, you do not sound like one of those women.

My advice is to trust your instincts. If it feels worrisome, talk about it with DH. Be as honest and as explicit as you can about your concerns. Share your hopes and expectations for how your family will work, including your "vision" of what it will look like day-to-day and the role you want him to play. He may not agree, and it may be uncomfortable. But you need to talk about it now, BEFORE you have children. Once they arrive, it will only get harder to discuss these things. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

I think it sounds like a pretty darned great situation. My DH wanted a similar set-up, but doesn't make nearly enough $ to pay for any help. Then we had kids. He definitely wasn't all that hands on for #1, between the nursing and me being home on maternity leave (and then going back to work PT) and his working and he had no experience with babies. By #2 he helped a lot more with #1 (who of course was also adorable and fun and could talk and take walks and was a lot more interesting than a baby). He did do some basic stuff around the house (trash, dishes, some cooking), but I was definitely in charge of the kids and their shit (literally). Now they're both in school and I still work PT and he has definitely stepped up even more. If nothing else, they come to him and ask for him. They like him. He's fun. I think if your DH is offering to interact with them in such ways as dinner and bedtime, that's great. I don't blame him, if you can afford it, for outsourcing just about every menial task possible. Why the hell not? I would get a FT professional housekeeper/helper/nanny. Basically someone who would deal more with the house but who could also stay with baby while you headed to the gym or got your hair done. You get to be with baby with minimal chores (there will always be something, but not so much if you have someone else working away at it), then take breaks as needed. Maybe even have lunch with a friend or read a book or something!

If your DH were saying he wanted basically nothing to do with the kid, I would really worry. I think he's sensible in saying let's have kids, pay for the help for the things we don't have to do, and enjoy them as much as possible. I would make sure he understands that sometimes there's going to be times that he has to get up and be thrown up on or change the sheets or something and that's all there is to it. You can't predict those things. You can, however, get a night nurse for the first months (I would have given my teeth for that) and that person would also wash the baby's clothes and clean up the paraphernalia, etc.

If you are worried about losing your identify or your functional mind (and you should have some concern about that -- being home with a baby can be mind-numbing) do take some sort of class or join a book club or something. Honestly, I am rarely jealous, but I would be thrilled with this sort of situation. At least he's being honest, stating what he will and won't do, and offering solutions for the menial work. Wish I could afford this.

Oh, I will say I've pretty much always been PT (tho closer to FT than say 20 hours) and most of the house stuff still fell on me. Through years of nagging (sadly), we have gotten far closer to maybe 70-30 than 90-10, but even if DH does something in the house, it's rarely without prompting. But I would say that when we are both home (when), the kids are more 60-40 and that's more important for me.

Sorry for rambling -- hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

OP, do not make a baby with that man
A modern woman needs a husband, not a child. What he is suggesting would not have been logistical even in your grandmothers time

[Anonymous]

Ugh, seriously, the only thing more ridiculous than the OP obsessing over what she and her husband MIGHT do after they have kids, even though she's not pregnant, is 5 pages of righteous DCUMS telling her HOW THINGS MUST BE even though they don't know thing one about her life. OP, here's the skinny: life with kids is complicated. If you and your husband are interested in having children, find a way to deal with that reality. If that sounds too ambiguous or complicated, put off the TTC until you've grown up a bit more.

[Anonymous]

I'm the "both parents give 100%" PP. That is a philosophical stance, and does not address the nitty-gritty, yes, but the guiding philosophy is crucial to working out the details. This is a matter of virtuous habits versus easy vices.

If you begin by acquiescing to his man-fantasy, you are cultivating the selfish, infantile, small part of the man. It is not easy or automatic to be a devoted father for ANY man. I remember a talk my husband and I attended about fatherhood, when the speaker detailed a dad's crushing day that began before the sun, involved two infuriating commutes with non-stop stress in between, and ended at dark. The speaker said that all a man wants to do in that moment is shut off his brain, turn into a zombie, eat something warm, and be left the hell alone. But that would be the precise moment his wife hands him the baby, his toddler hugs his leg, and everyone looks at him for attention and affirmation and involvement.

The speaker said every father needed to understand one simple thing: his JOB, his ROLE, his rightful PLACE was NOT to plop down and vegetate--it was the opposite. His proper task was to listen to his wife, hug his kids, help clear the table with everyone, assist in a cozy bedtime, and do so gladly. Instead of feeling robbed of rightful peace by his annoying family, a father has to see his family's needs as legitimately his responsibility.

That needs to be a man's guiding philosophy when he becomes a father. If it is, then the details, while important, will work themselves out.

I don't hear this kind of selflessness in OP's descriptions. That is what I find alarming. Not that he wants to outsource scut work or just have fun with the kids--those actions are morally neutral. The philosophy that OP has related so far is not compatible with virtuous fatherhood, no matter what the details.

[Anonymous]

OP, where is your husband from? Seriously, not trying to be a jerk, but what culture is this? Is he from the Middle East?

[Anonymous]

a woman with a baby and a husband has 2 children

OP, become a single parent if you really want a baby

[Anonymous]

100% PP again, sorry...

oP, I don't know what ethnic background your husband comes from, but my husband is Asian, and his dad, and all of his male relatives, are even more egregious versions of your husband. My MIL is a doctor, and has always out-earned my FIL, but she did 100% of the child- and house-related tasks when she came home (though my husband was actually largely raised by his cat, since both of his parents were rarely home at all). My FIL treated, and treats, her with such derision and disrespect, it makes my skin crawl, and she once told me she got sterilized to make sure she'd never have a girl, because the life of a woman is hell.

No matter how hard she worked, no matter how much she sacrificed herself, because he fundamentally disrespected her role and misunderstood his own role, he saw her as inferior. Not cool. I hate having my kids witness the way he treats her even now. And he's a helpless baby on top of all that.

Your kids need a good role model. My husband is a fabulous, affectionate, devoted, hard-working hero to our family, but that is because he consciously does the opposite of everything his dad did. His older brother? Who should also have been a virtuous modern man, by using his dad as the anti-example? Nope. He models his dad's behaviors, probably subconsciously, but inexorably.

For the sake of your theoretical children, please continue these conversations until the lightbulb goes off that fatherhood is an act of love, and love is self-giving, quiet and steady and strong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would never have children with this man. Even if you have help, this is what your marriage will look like. Child wakes up at 2am throwing up. He rolls over and goes back to sleep, you comfort, clean, change the sheets. Repeat times two. Child spills milk at the table, he keeps eating, you leap up and mop it up. He is done eating by the time you sit back down. You are sick with the flu, the children go without baths for days. Of course, I work and so does my husband, and we share duties equally. The love and trust my children have for my husband as the result of him doing the "menial" stuff for them is priceless. When I watch my husband as he carefully packs his kids' lunches in the morning and remembers to include note on the napkin, my heart swells with love and gratitude that he is such a great guy. Your husband doesn't realize he will be missing out. The "fun" stuff is not where the real love happens. That's just the frosting, not the cake.

These are exactly the kinds of scenarios you need to discuss with your husband before you conceive.

Sadly, too many men still behave this way. Even worse, many of them feel completely justified because they bring in lots of money to the household and their wife is a SAHM, so it's her job to do "everything else". If this is not the life you want, you need to talk with your husband to be sure he agrees.