What’s the different between upper middle class and upper class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle class earn a nice income $250k+ from working.

Upper class have typical annual investment returns of $300k+ and they likely work additionally.

Im in the second category, even though we have vacationed in Hawaii (no condo) and our cleaning lady comes only biweekly.

Is 300k in investments and an office job really upper class nowadays?

It’s 300k in annual returns from investments and yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the biggest difference between the UMC and UC is time. That is, your time is your own when you’re UC. You don’t think twice about flying out mid week to NYC to see a concert or going skiing or flying to Caribbean with friends. I have relatives like this who’ve invited us along not realizing that they don’t have to negotiate bosses, clients, childcare or paid time off the way a highly compensated and golden handcuffed UMC person does. And yes, this is different than the retired couple with $5 million in the bank who spend their weeks playing pickle ball or golf while collecting a social security check. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

The difference can’t just be time. I’m single, self employed and I have plenty of time. I don’t think twice about flying mid week to Vegas. I’m not wealthy by any means.

The difference is what you can afford to do with your time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ha my sister married into a UC Bostonian family - you would never know it when you look at them.

The parents have a house in the NE for the summer and in the SE for the winter.

Will fly commercial but as they have gotten older prefer to fly on private jets.

Daughter married into finance and her HHI is around $10 million a year.

Son (my sisters husband) and my sister do well but are not as insanely wealthy as the daughter. Their HHI is around $1.5 million a year.

The family trust is around $20 million and nobody touches the principal it just gets passed down through the generations.

This is a tiny family trust for this level of HHI. I created a $7m trust for my child a single mother making $300k/year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha my sister married into a UC Bostonian family - you would never know it when you look at them.

The parents have a house in the NE for the summer and in the SE for the winter.

Will fly commercial but as they have gotten older prefer to fly on private jets.

Daughter married into finance and her HHI is around $10 million a year.

Son (my sisters husband) and my sister do well but are not as insanely wealthy as the daughter. Their HHI is around $1.5 million a year.

The family trust is around $20 million and nobody touches the principal it just gets passed down through the generations.

This is a tiny family trust for this level of HHI. I created a $7m trust for my child a single mother making $300k/year

I actually typed that out too and then deleted it because it felt mean. $20M doesn’t make any sense for old money with how compounding works and not touching the principal. I figured maybe they left off a 0 to be modest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha my sister married into a UC Bostonian family - you would never know it when you look at them.

The parents have a house in the NE for the summer and in the SE for the winter.

Will fly commercial but as they have gotten older prefer to fly on private jets.

Daughter married into finance and her HHI is around $10 million a year.

Son (my sisters husband) and my sister do well but are not as insanely wealthy as the daughter. Their HHI is around $1.5 million a year.

The family trust is around $20 million and nobody touches the principal it just gets passed down through the generations.

This is a tiny family trust for this level of HHI. I created a $7m trust for my child a single mother making $300k/year

Sorry, what are you saying? how does one create a $7 million trust from earning $300k a year? That's like 30x your gross pre-tax annual salary.

[Anonymous]

From the vantage point of people hovering around the poverty line, there's no difference betweeen UMC and UC. It's all a blur of completely out of reach.

This whole thread is stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha my sister married into a UC Bostonian family - you would never know it when you look at them.

The parents have a house in the NE for the summer and in the SE for the winter.

Will fly commercial but as they have gotten older prefer to fly on private jets.

Daughter married into finance and her HHI is around $10 million a year.

Son (my sisters husband) and my sister do well but are not as insanely wealthy as the daughter. Their HHI is around $1.5 million a year.

The family trust is around $20 million and nobody touches the principal it just gets passed down through the generations.

This is a tiny family trust for this level of HHI. I created a $7m trust for my child a single mother making $300k/year

Sorry, what are you saying? how does one create a $7 million trust from earning $300k a year? That's like 30x your gross pre-tax annual salary.

Leveraged investing in real estate, efficient taxation and several jobs between age 25 and 45. Beginning salary was 100K

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle has at least some income through a w-2 and actually needs to work to maintain their lifestyle/savings.

Upper class can fully sustain themselves with investments.

Plenty of FIRE people “sustain themselves with investments.” But they are living on $100k a year in a LCOL area. That doesn’t make them upper class.

But many upper class people are cheap as hell.

For sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they are UC.

My mother wouldn't let me order sour cream on my baked potato at Ponderosa because it cost 25 cents extra. Drive up the road from that Ponderosa (just about the only place we ever ate out, unless you count BK, which was also rare) a ways and you would come across a uni building with our name on it. Lol. She was a money hoarder -- it's a mental illness and had nothing to do with how much money there actually was, or the fact that she had grown up the way most UC people do. She was just nuts. I remember one evening at the Country Club we were having dinner with my grandparents and my grandfather looks up from the menu and says to my grandmother "Larla, we can't afford this!" and she just shook her head at him annoyed -- they could afford every dinner in the place and the building it was in to boot, and more. People have weird relationships with money and get very controlling around spending and sometimes having a lot of money doesn't really matter. My grandfather's dad jumped off a building in NYC in 1929 though (yeah, not a myth, it did happen) -- so we will allow him his trauma and controlling feelings around money.

Sounds like my FIL. UHNW and almost had a heart attack when he thought we weren’t covering the entire $100 Carrabba’s bill at dinner. It’s a sickness.

I’ve noticed this too. It’s the wealthy families we know who will invite one of our kids along to an activity and let us know the amount so we can Venmo them. And I don’t mean expensive activities, I’m talking ~$30 when they live in a $2M house and own vacation properties.

Meanwhile my family your typical DCUM UMC earning about $300k and we definitely need our incomes. Yet I refuse to let other parents reimburse me if I’m the one inviting their child somewhere. I always give 2-3x the suggested contribution amount to the room parents. We generally tip 20% as the default for things like going out to eat, hair cuts, etc. We give generous holiday gifts to our biweekly cleaners, teachers (well as much as the gift limit allows throughout the year), adopt an angel tree kid and try to get everything on the list we reasonably can, etc.

Maybe it’s because I grew up in a working class neighborhood and feel so fortunate to now have the disposable income we do even if it’s not enough to quit our jobs and live a life of leisure. We are good savers and lucked out on buying a home with a sub 3% interest rate, so I don’t want to spend our lives fretting over relatively small amounts of money. I’d rather err on the side of generosity.

Conversely I think having a lot of wealth creates this scarcity mindset where you must protect that wealth and worry about people taking advantage of you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle has at least some income through a w-2 and actually needs to work to maintain their lifestyle/savings.

Upper class can fully sustain themselves with investments.

Ah, so most people change social class when they retire?

Or (more likely) you have zero idea what you’re talking about

I assume the PP was referring to people of working age. The goal, even for LMC, is to be able to retire (or at least cut to part time and collect some SS instead of working full time) in older age.

But in looking at 2 families in the thick of home buying, career decisions, childcare expenses, figuring out what level of outsourcing they can afford, etc. the UMC family is likely budgeting to some extent, making decisions on where to cut and where to splurge, dread expensive home repairs, and know in their minds their class standing could easily change with job loss or illness. UMC is much closer to MC or even LMC than they are the UC.

The truly UC aren’t scared about AI taking their jobs. They aren’t worried about future real estate being too expensive for their children to get on the property ladder. They aren’t worried about losing their health insurance if they get cancer and can’t work. It’s a level of security that most of us will never come close to because their money is doing all the work for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle class goes to Hawaii. Upper class has a condo in Hawaii.

Upper middle either lives in a great school district or sends their kids to private school. Upper class does boarding school.

Upper middle class has a cleaning lady once or twice a week. Upper class has a housekeeper.

How money is spent doesn’t dictate class, sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Once again, lots of people are conflating class with money, which itself is a very middle class way of looking at things.

UMC has a home theater; UC has a (live) theater subscription.

UMC has a power boat; UC has a sailboat.

UMC is terribly concerned with meeting the right people; UC already knows them. (Whether they like them is a whole 'nother matter.)

UMC has a freshly paved and sealed driveway. UC has washboarded gravel.

UMC children are William (never Will or Billy) and Charlotte (never Lottie or Char). UC children are Bungy, Lala, Chip/Trey/Quinn, and Roo.

UMC fly on A plane. UC fly on THE plane.

UMC kids learn golf from the club pro. UC kids learn from their parents and grandparents.

UMC horse-crazy daughters buy $1200 boots for horse shows. UC daughters go fox hunting in their mom's old tweeds.

British? Fox hunting, please. Plus my UMC parents have most of your UC things, so again this is America!

. . . And UC go hunting - birds and deer in the UC on their ranch, they also go hunting in Argentina

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread really brought out the blue book / social register slops. Thank god they’re a dying breed.

+1
They aren’t dying though. Population, in general in the US, has increased and therefore they are more insular. You’ll find them at the club and private schools - where they’ve always been. And, no not boarding school (some, not most), the way it’s been for 3-4 decades now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Based on these responses you can be upper class while earning $100k in investments, sitting on a not for profit board and living extremely modestly. But upper middle while earning $1 million.

We are borderline of UMC and UC. $3m HHI, few properties, can technically retire but cannot maintain current lifestyle without working.

Some people may say we are definitely UC. I consider ourselves UMC.

If you were born UMC your tastes will be - and that really define you. You are just rich UMC. Strivers here don’t get that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper Class: This is the realm of traditional blue-blooded elites who, although they lack the almost mythical wealth of their higher counterparts, still wield considerable influence. Think of families like the Kennedys and Roosevelts — families who, according to Fussell, are obviously extremely elite but too “public” to be placed in the higher “top out of sight” tier.

Upper Middle Class: This class represents the backbone of educated professionals who, while not possessing the lineage or heritage wealth of the ‘Upper Class’, nonetheless hold significant sway within society. If the ‘Upper Class’ is defined by heritage and wealth, then the ‘Upper Middle Class’ is defined by education. Here, you’ll find a plethora of Ivy League degrees and advanced qualifications. Universities are seen not merely as gateways to professional success but as indispensable institutions for cultural enlightenment and social bonding. As for professions, expect a broad spectrum. They’re your accomplished lawyers, seasoned doctors, university professors, and successful small business owners. Their careers offer more than economic comfort — they command societal respect and intellectual satisfaction. Culturally, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ champions meritocracy and the pursuit of personal growth. They place a high premium on cultural literacy, aesthetic refinement, and intellectual curiosity. In essence, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ values are rooted in achievement through dedication and education rather than inherited status. They are the embodiment of the American dream, where one can rise through the ranks via hard work and intellectual acumen.

Note class is what you're born into, not the money you have. A blue collar plumber who wins the lottery or happens to sell his business for $20 million is still High Proletarian. Now, his kids might level up. That is, no matter how much sheen you put on it, you will find your class markers betraying you even if you become successful and wealthy. For instance, I know some very wealthy and successful people who grew up poor and their very nice and tasteful house is packed with food. Like ridiculous and wasteful amounts of food -- because it's a sign of comfort and of the trauma due to food insecurity that they experienced as children. That's a sure sign that they were born lower middle class or lower.

Most of this sounds straight out of chatgpt, with all the attendant lack of understanding.

Oh please enlighten us on what is misunderstood. This was pulled from notes from Paul Fussell's book, "Class" along with personal anecdotes and recognizing it's a wonderful, albeit dated guide to class distinctions in America. Or perhaps I struck a nerve because it hit too close to home? If it did, then it's probably because you're decidedly middle class and insecure.

Lady white people are about to be a minority in America. The days of the illustrious blue bloods are dated. Dying breed, to be frank. Too many generations now and too much dilution.

Nice that you think that but you are wrong. There will always be UC WASP culture. There is already UC Hispanic culture. The future will mean that there will also be UC American Asian, Persian, Nigerian, etc. People bring their culture with them and adapt it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle class goes to Hawaii. Upper class has a condo in Hawaii.

Upper middle either lives in a great school district or sends their kids to private school. Upper class does boarding school.

Upper middle class has a cleaning lady once or twice a week. Upper class has a housekeeper.

Condos are for poor people. Not accurate

Wrong. We’re rich and own 3 condos. Many rich people diversify by real estate and have done for eternity- dating back to at least the feudal system. And since you are at most LMC - that was in the Middle Ages.