What’s the different between upper middle class and upper class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper Class: This is the realm of traditional blue-blooded elites who, although they lack the almost mythical wealth of their higher counterparts, still wield considerable influence. Think of families like the Kennedys and Roosevelts — families who, according to Fussell, are obviously extremely elite but too “public” to be placed in the higher “top out of sight” tier.

Upper Middle Class: This class represents the backbone of educated professionals who, while not possessing the lineage or heritage wealth of the ‘Upper Class’, nonetheless hold significant sway within society. If the ‘Upper Class’ is defined by heritage and wealth, then the ‘Upper Middle Class’ is defined by education. Here, you’ll find a plethora of Ivy League degrees and advanced qualifications. Universities are seen not merely as gateways to professional success but as indispensable institutions for cultural enlightenment and social bonding. As for professions, expect a broad spectrum. They’re your accomplished lawyers, seasoned doctors, university professors, and successful small business owners. Their careers offer more than economic comfort — they command societal respect and intellectual satisfaction. Culturally, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ champions meritocracy and the pursuit of personal growth. They place a high premium on cultural literacy, aesthetic refinement, and intellectual curiosity. In essence, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ values are rooted in achievement through dedication and education rather than inherited status. They are the embodiment of the American dream, where one can rise through the ranks via hard work and intellectual acumen.

Note class is what you're born into, not the money you have. A blue collar plumber who wins the lottery or happens to sell his business for $20 million is still High Proletarian. Now, his kids might level up. That is, no matter how much sheen you put on it, you will find your class markers betraying you even if you become successful and wealthy. For instance, I know some very wealthy and successful people who grew up poor and their very nice and tasteful house is packed with food. Like ridiculous and wasteful amounts of food -- because it's a sign of comfort and of the trauma due to food insecurity that they experienced as children. That's a sure sign that they were born lower middle class or lower.

Most of this sounds straight out of chatgpt, with all the attendant lack of understanding.

Oh please enlighten us on what is misunderstood. This was pulled from notes from Paul Fussell's book, "Class" along with personal anecdotes and recognizing it's a wonderful, albeit dated guide to class distinctions in America. Or perhaps I struck a nerve because it hit too close to home? If it did, then it's probably because you're decidedly middle class and insecure.

PP here. Lol, I've read that book, in fact I recommended it here a couple of years ago. I bet that is how you knew about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper Class: This is the realm of traditional blue-blooded elites who, although they lack the almost mythical wealth of their higher counterparts, still wield considerable influence. Think of families like the Kennedys and Roosevelts — families who, according to Fussell, are obviously extremely elite but too “public” to be placed in the higher “top out of sight” tier.

Upper Middle Class: This class represents the backbone of educated professionals who, while not possessing the lineage or heritage wealth of the ‘Upper Class’, nonetheless hold significant sway within society. If the ‘Upper Class’ is defined by heritage and wealth, then the ‘Upper Middle Class’ is defined by education. Here, you’ll find a plethora of Ivy League degrees and advanced qualifications. Universities are seen not merely as gateways to professional success but as indispensable institutions for cultural enlightenment and social bonding. As for professions, expect a broad spectrum. They’re your accomplished lawyers, seasoned doctors, university professors, and successful small business owners. Their careers offer more than economic comfort — they command societal respect and intellectual satisfaction. Culturally, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ champions meritocracy and the pursuit of personal growth. They place a high premium on cultural literacy, aesthetic refinement, and intellectual curiosity. In essence, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ values are rooted in achievement through dedication and education rather than inherited status. They are the embodiment of the American dream, where one can rise through the ranks via hard work and intellectual acumen.

Note class is what you're born into, not the money you have. A blue collar plumber who wins the lottery or happens to sell his business for $20 million is still High Proletarian. Now, his kids might level up. That is, no matter how much sheen you put on it, you will find your class markers betraying you even if you become successful and wealthy. For instance, I know some very wealthy and successful people who grew up poor and their very nice and tasteful house is packed with food. Like ridiculous and wasteful amounts of food -- because it's a sign of comfort and of the trauma due to food insecurity that they experienced as children. That's a sure sign that they were born lower middle class or lower.

Most of this sounds straight out of chatgpt, with all the attendant lack of understanding.

Oh please enlighten us on what is misunderstood. This was pulled from notes from Paul Fussell's book, "Class" along with personal anecdotes and recognizing it's a wonderful, albeit dated guide to class distinctions in America. Or perhaps I struck a nerve because it hit too close to home? If it did, then it's probably because you're decidedly middle class and insecure.

PP here. Lol, I've read that book, in fact I recommended it here a couple of years ago. I bet that is how you knew about it.

I've also recommended it here and like to quote it whenever this topic comes up, having read it decades ago. You didn't answer my question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Class doesn’t mean much in the US.

What you are really asking is the difference between being a high earner and being wealthy.

If you make a bunch of money but also have a mortgage and are saving for college/retirement/etc then you are upper middle class.

If you have a lot of money in investments and can live comfortably off the income from said money without drawing it down then you are wealthy.

Most upper middle class people aspire to become wealthy but obviously not all succeed.

Your definition is incomplete.
I’m retired and live a comfortable life off the income from my investments. I’m far from wealthy.
Living comfortably is vague. You have to be specific about the type of likely you can afford. Private jets, multiple housekeepers, etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle has at least some income through a w-2 and actually needs to work to maintain their lifestyle/savings.

Upper class can fully sustain themselves with investments.

Plenty of FIRE people “sustain themselves with investments.” But they are living on $100k a year in a LCOL area. That doesn’t make them upper class.

But many upper class people are cheap as hell.

For sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they are UC.

My mother wouldn't let me order sour cream on my baked potato at Ponderosa because it cost 25 cents extra. Drive up the road from that Ponderosa (just about the only place we ever ate out, unless you count BK, which was also rare) a ways and you would come across a uni building with our name on it. Lol. She was a money hoarder -- it's a mental illness and had nothing to do with how much money there actually was, or the fact that she had grown up the way most UC people do. She was just nuts. I remember one evening at the Country Club we were having dinner with my grandparents and my grandfather looks up from the menu and says to my grandmother "Larla, we can't afford this!" and she just shook her head at him annoyed -- they could afford every dinner in the place and the building it was in to boot, and more. People have weird relationships with money and get very controlling around spending and sometimes having a lot of money doesn't really matter. My grandfather's dad jumped off a building in NYC in 1929 though (yeah, not a myth, it did happen) -- so we will allow him his trauma and controlling feelings around money.

Sounds like my FIL. UHNW and almost had a heart attack when he thought we weren’t covering the entire $100 Carrabba’s bill at dinner. It’s a sickness.

[Anonymous]

Ha my sister married into a UC Bostonian family - you would never know it when you look at them.

The parents have a house in the NE for the summer and in the SE for the winter.

Will fly commercial but as they have gotten older prefer to fly on private jets.

Daughter married into finance and her HHI is around $10 million a year.

Son (my sisters husband) and my sister do well but are not as insanely wealthy as the daughter. Their HHI is around $1.5 million a year.

The family trust is around $20 million and nobody touches the principal it just gets passed down through the generations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle has at least some income through a w-2 and actually needs to work to maintain their lifestyle/savings.

Upper class can fully sustain themselves with investments.

Plenty of FIRE people “sustain themselves with investments.” But they are living on $100k a year in a LCOL area. That doesn’t make them upper class.

But many upper class people are cheap as hell.

For sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they are UC.

My mother wouldn't let me order sour cream on my baked potato at Ponderosa because it cost 25 cents extra. Drive up the road from that Ponderosa (just about the only place we ever ate out, unless you count BK, which was also rare) a ways and you would come across a uni building with our name on it. Lol. She was a money hoarder -- it's a mental illness and had nothing to do with how much money there actually was, or the fact that she had grown up the way most UC people do. She was just nuts. I remember one evening at the Country Club we were having dinner with my grandparents and my grandfather looks up from the menu and says to my grandmother "Larla, we can't afford this!" and she just shook her head at him annoyed -- they could afford every dinner in the place and the building it was in to boot, and more. People have weird relationships with money and get very controlling around spending and sometimes having a lot of money doesn't really matter. My grandfather's dad jumped off a building in NYC in 1929 though (yeah, not a myth, it did happen) -- so we will allow him his trauma and controlling feelings around money.

I'm so sorry your grandfather's family went through that, PP. Absolutely, that sounds incredibly traumatic.

[Anonymous]

I think the biggest difference between the UMC and UC is time. That is, your time is your own when you’re UC. You don’t think twice about flying out mid week to NYC to see a concert or going skiing or flying to Caribbean with friends. I have relatives like this who’ve invited us along not realizing that they don’t have to negotiate bosses, clients, childcare or paid time off the way a highly compensated and golden handcuffed UMC person does. And yes, this is different than the retired couple with $5 million in the bank who spend their weeks playing pickle ball or golf while collecting a social security check. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Anonymous]

A lot of people have said some version of this but for me, it’s truly where the money comes from.

I have a close friend and we have mostly all the same things. Nice house in a great neighborhood, two kids in private, second homes in prime locations.

Only difference is if my DH and I stopped working tomorrow, all of that would be done. Hers is fully funded by a trust and neither she nor her spouse work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What are the biggest differences in lifestyle?

About tree-fiddy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle class earn a nice income $250k+ from working.

Upper class have typical annual investment returns of $300k+ and they likely work additionally.

Im in the second category, even though we have vacationed in Hawaii (no condo) and our cleaning lady comes only biweekly.

Is 300k in investments and an office job really upper class nowadays?

They’re drawing $300K returns annually so something like $7.5M principal min

Umm no. I have 4m principal generating 750k this yr. Depends on how you are invested obviously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle class the staff show up to the house for work. Upper class the staff live on the estate grounds.

The year is 2025. In America this hasn’t happened for nearly a century.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle has at least some income through a w-2 and actually needs to work to maintain their lifestyle/savings.

Upper class can fully sustain themselves with investments.

Ah, so most people change social class when they retire?

Or (more likely) you have zero idea what you’re talking about

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread really brought out the blue book / social register slops. Thank god they’re a dying breed.

Yeah, but now we’re stuck with PE vultures and their ilk, and they’re a literal cancer. They should be drawn and quartered in the streets. At least we got museums and libraries out of the old WASPs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the biggest difference between the UMC and UC is time. That is, your time is your own when you’re UC. You don’t think twice about flying out mid week to NYC to see a concert or going skiing or flying to Caribbean with friends. I have relatives like this who’ve invited us along not realizing that they don’t have to negotiate bosses, clients, childcare or paid time off the way a highly compensated and golden handcuffed UMC person does. And yes, this is different than the retired couple with $5 million in the bank who spend their weeks playing pickle ball or golf while collecting a social security check. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

This is so accurate. Our wealthy friends who own successful businesses can do whatever they want with their time in a way the UMC and W-2 working wealthy can’t. They also have 24/7 household staff (not live in, but there’s always 2-3 staff floating around for round the clock coverage), which covers any childcare or pet care gaps or errands etc. Seems like a great way to live. Endless freedom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Class doesn’t mean much in the US.

What you are really asking is the difference between being a high earner and being wealthy.

If you make a bunch of money but also have a mortgage and are saving for college/retirement/etc then you are upper middle class.

If you have a lot of money in investments and can live comfortably off the income from said money without drawing it down then you are wealthy.

Most upper middle class people aspire to become wealthy but obviously not all succeed.

+1 working for the money

Vs

The money's working for you