Helping judgmental grandparents understand that the college landscape has changed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am guessing I'm not alone in this, and am wondering how others have handled it.

I attended a HYPSM. My parents basically believe that maybe 10 colleges are good ones, and the rest are lousy. Or more precisely, the kids attending those other schools are not very bright or somehow not worthy. They literally roll their eyes at some of these schools, like Pitt and Wake Forest. I would be thrilled if my kid ended up at either of these! Not to mention many many others.

My parents sort of get that the college landscape has changed but not really, because they occasionally hear of some friend whose grandkid is going to Harvard or Columbia or some such, and then decide that those schools are attainable for my kids.

DH and I are trying to raise happy, healthy, secure kids who are motivated but also live a balanced life. My DD is about to enter 11th grade, and for the last couple years my parents have been pestering me on where she will be applying. I have avoided the subject, which until now hasn't been difficult because we've had no idea. But of course that will soon change and I am dreading upcoming conversations. DD is a great kid, but I think it's unlikely she'd be accepted (or even apply) to a tippy-top school.

What have others done in these situations, where parents/grandparents are relentlessly bringing this up every time they see you? Do you shut them out of the college search for your child (and to what extent? Would you not tell them you're visiting schools, or where you are visiting)? Would you refuse to share an SAT score if asked directly, and if your child didn't object to such sharing? Do you share limited information but then try to steer the conversation elsewhere? In my ideal world they would know nothing until DD has settled on where she is going but I am not sure if this is realistic, and what kind of friction would result. Thanks for any advice. I feel like I need to prepare myself but am not sure of the best approach.

I told my parents that my kid is applying to 15 schools, most of them state universities with great programs for her major and a fun campus. I've told them that even if my kid were to get accepted to places like Harvard or Columbia, she would be miserable there. She wants a big game day experience. As for the SAT score, I told them that she's struggling to make it above 1250 and will likely go test optional. There you go. Done. The more you try to "impress" them, the more they will continue to engage with you and give you unsolicited advice. But if you just lower their expectations, they'll really have nothing else to say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am guessing I'm not alone in this, and am wondering how others have handled it.

I attended a HYPSM. My parents basically believe that maybe 10 colleges are good ones, and the rest are lousy. Or more precisely, the kids attending those other schools are not very bright or somehow not worthy. They literally roll their eyes at some of these schools, like Pitt and Wake Forest. I would be thrilled if my kid ended up at either of these! Not to mention many many others.

My parents sort of get that the college landscape has changed but not really, because they occasionally hear of some friend whose grandkid is going to Harvard or Columbia or some such, and then decide that those schools are attainable for my kids.

DH and I are trying to raise happy, healthy, secure kids who are motivated but also live a balanced life. My DD is about to enter 11th grade, and for the last couple years my parents have been pestering me on where she will be applying. I have avoided the subject, which until now hasn't been difficult because we've had no idea. But of course that will soon change and I am dreading upcoming conversations. DD is a great kid, but I think it's unlikely she'd be accepted (or even apply) to a tippy-top school.

What have others done in these situations, where parents/grandparents are relentlessly bringing this up every time they see you? Do you shut them out of the college search for your child (and to what extent? Would you not tell them you're visiting schools, or where you are visiting)? Would you refuse to share an SAT score if asked directly, and if your child didn't object to such sharing? Do you share limited information but then try to steer the conversation elsewhere? In my ideal world they would know nothing until DD has settled on where she is going but I am not sure if this is realistic, and what kind of friction would result. Thanks for any advice. I feel like I need to prepare myself but am not sure of the best approach.

The generation of people that are currently grandparent-age is the worst generation in the history of humanity. (Ex. A - Donald Trump, Ex. B - Bill Clinton) They’re terrible people. Just tell them to f-off.

Let's attack an entire generation of people. That's not weird at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am guessing I'm not alone in this, and am wondering how others have handled it.

I attended a HYPSM. My parents basically believe that maybe 10 colleges are good ones, and the rest are lousy. Or more precisely, the kids attending those other schools are not very bright or somehow not worthy. They literally roll their eyes at some of these schools, like Pitt and Wake Forest. I would be thrilled if my kid ended up at either of these! Not to mention many many others.

My parents sort of get that the college landscape has changed but not really, because they occasionally hear of some friend whose grandkid is going to Harvard or Columbia or some such, and then decide that those schools are attainable for my kids.

DH and I are trying to raise happy, healthy, secure kids who are motivated but also live a balanced life. My DD is about to enter 11th grade, and for the last couple years my parents have been pestering me on where she will be applying. I have avoided the subject, which until now hasn't been difficult because we've had no idea. But of course that will soon change and I am dreading upcoming conversations. DD is a great kid, but I think it's unlikely she'd be accepted (or even apply) to a tippy-top school.

What have others done in these situations, where parents/grandparents are relentlessly bringing this up every time they see you? Do you shut them out of the college search for your child (and to what extent? Would you not tell them you're visiting schools, or where you are visiting)? Would you refuse to share an SAT score if asked directly, and if your child didn't object to such sharing? Do you share limited information but then try to steer the conversation elsewhere? In my ideal world they would know nothing until DD has settled on where she is going but I am not sure if this is realistic, and what kind of friction would result. Thanks for any advice. I feel like I need to prepare myself but am not sure of the best approach.

I told my parents that my kid is applying to 15 schools, most of them state universities with great programs for her major and a fun campus. I've told them that even if my kid were to get accepted to places like Harvard or Columbia, she would be miserable there. She wants a big game day experience. As for the SAT score, I told them that she's struggling to make it above 1250 and will likely go test optional. There you go. Done. The more you try to "impress" them, the more they will continue to engage with you and give you unsolicited advice. But if you just lower their expectations, they'll really have nothing else to say.

I am guessing you don’t have parents like some of us. Believe me, my mom would have plenty to say if I gave her that much info.

[Anonymous]

Interesting. Grown adults with careers and high school aged kids that are still concerned with what their parents think? Are you still financially dependent on them or something? Who cares what they think?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Offspring of Asian parents here. Thirty years ago, the ivies were a status symbol in my parents’ immigrant crowd, a sign that they had “made it”. Then some of us (gasp) started going to liberal arts colleges. Now the parents in that crowd are in their 80’s and are less judgmental about where their grandchildren go to college- because they’ve had a generation to see that an Ivy or T-10 isn’t the only “golden ticket” out there.

I think it's more complicated than than. A lot of it was insecurity. A lot of it was grasping for something to justify the painful sacrifices needed to give you academic opportunities.

The problem is that these days we have much coarse filters that allow more subjectivity into the equation with much higher exclusivity/selectivity combined with a built in bias against the over represented minorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am guessing I'm not alone in this, and am wondering how others have handled it.

I attended a HYPSM. My parents basically believe that maybe 10 colleges are good ones, and the rest are lousy. Or more precisely, the kids attending those other schools are not very bright or somehow not worthy. They literally roll their eyes at some of these schools, like Pitt and Wake Forest. I would be thrilled if my kid ended up at either of these! Not to mention many many others.

My parents sort of get that the college landscape has changed but not really, because they occasionally hear of some friend whose grandkid is going to Harvard or Columbia or some such, and then decide that those schools are attainable for my kids.

DH and I are trying to raise happy, healthy, secure kids who are motivated but also live a balanced life. My DD is about to enter 11th grade, and for the last couple years my parents have been pestering me on where she will be applying. I have avoided the subject, which until now hasn't been difficult because we've had no idea. But of course that will soon change and I am dreading upcoming conversations. DD is a great kid, but I think it's unlikely she'd be accepted (or even apply) to a tippy-top school.

What have others done in these situations, where parents/grandparents are relentlessly bringing this up every time they see you? Do you shut them out of the college search for your child (and to what extent? Would you not tell them you're visiting schools, or where you are visiting)? Would you refuse to share an SAT score if asked directly, and if your child didn't object to such sharing? Do you share limited information but then try to steer the conversation elsewhere? In my ideal world they would know nothing until DD has settled on where she is going but I am not sure if this is realistic, and what kind of friction would result. Thanks for any advice. I feel like I need to prepare myself but am not sure of the best approach.

The generation of people that are currently grandparent-age is the worst generation in the history of humanity. (Ex. A - Donald Trump, Ex. B - Bill Clinton) They’re terrible people. Just tell them to f-off.

Let's attack an entire generation of people. That's not weird at all.

Exactly. I was gonna say, try substituting “generation” for anything else and you’d be a disgusting racist bigot. You still are, actually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I have to wonder if you yourself are disappointed or defensive about your kid’s college prospects and for that reason are doing a little projecting here.

??? Go away, troll.

It doesn’t make me a troll. If your parents were smart enough to have produced a tippy top college student they’re smart enough to have the changed landscape explained to them.

In your case, it’s more than that. It’s not just the changed landscape. It sounds like even under the prior landscape your kid wouldn’t have been Ivy material. Am I right? You made a point of saying that that’s how you raised him. So who are you trying to convince?

OP back. Thank you so much everyone for the comments and suggestions! I am reading them all and please please keep them coming. They are truly helpful.

The above pp is right in a sense about their point that I didn't raise my kid to be "Ivy material," but not right that I am defensive or unhappy about this. I have no idea, truly, how DD would have fared under the 1990s system. Like many folks, I can't imagine I'd have been admitted today to the places I got in then. I was a pretty typical upper-middle class kid with a lot of privilege and opportunities. I also grew up in a very high-pressure home where I was expected to perform and was afraid to be open with my parents if I didn't ace a test. DH and I knew we didn't want that environment for our kids. And of course our kids are who they are, they have the interests they have, and my goal is to support them in who they are and not try to mold them into someone else.

My parents are familiar with the fact that admissions stats have changed, but argue that that doesn't mean a whole lot because the admissions stats are low since students apply to so many more schools. I admit I haven't dug into the data myself though I assume there are also a lot more students applying to college now than 30 years ago. I guess I could gather more statistics on this though admit I'm a bit crabby to even spend time on this! But maybe it's worthwhile, I don't know.

I do think I need to really hold them at bay because as a pp warned, they could significantly ramp up the stress. I'm still struggling with exactly what to say and what to share and not share. It feels different than keeping out friends or more distant family. There I would find it easier to simply say, "This is a stressful time for DD but we'd love to share with you once she knows where she's going!" My parents will be outraged if I say something like that to them, but maybe I just need to suck it up and be a grownup here, and deal with it.

This situation is uncovering an underlying problem - your relationship with your parents, and the fact that they seem to hold great sway over your mental health. If you're afraid of their reactions regarding your family's life decisions, that speaks volumes. It's unfortunate that it's only now, at a time of great stress for your child, that this might be showdown time with your parents. They needed to learn their lesson many decades ago.

If you can find a way to wiggle out of a direct confrontation, sure. But they will keep doing this, for your next kid, or other life decisions. I would be blunt, and then let them have whatever fit they want.

I agree that the problem isn’t the changed college landscape or your daughter’s prospects, but the fact that your parents still have this much control over you and you feelings. If you weren’t able to freely tell them you didn’t ace a test, they were clearly controlling and you were fearful of them. Congrats on not repeating this dynamic with your own child. However, you still have a lot of work to do as it relates to your relationship with your parents. The healthiest dynamic would be for them not to be judgmental and just congratulate our daughter wherever that goes. But you’re not going to change them and it sounds like that’s not going to happen. The next healthiest dynamic would be fo you not to listen to them when they make comments about her school and not to let their comments impact your feelings one.single.bit. Why does it really matter what your parents think about your daughter’s college?

+1

Who cares if they are outraged?

I mean this kindly, OP needs therapy. I don’t understand being an adult with high school aged kids and still being concerned about what her parents think.

I didn't understand an adult that can do really cast aside the people that birthed them, raised them, provided them with every opportunity they could afford and many they couldn't afford. You sound like one of those people that think people and relationships are disposable and that loved ones are not worth fighting for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lot of us are in the same boat with our parents. They can’t understand why many of us were able to get into T-30’s with (or despite) their hands-off free-range 1980’s parenting, while out enriched, helicoptered kids are lucky to get into places that were considered Safeties during our time.

Ha, to be honest, I don’t understand it myself! Where did all these high flyers come from??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Same. I went to an ivy myself and my husband went to Georgetown and my parents believe that the top 30-ish schools are the only ones worth applying to.

My rising senior will probably go to a large state school which will be a great fit for him. The way I've prepped my parents is by sharing articles that show the change in acceptance rates (such as from 20-40% to 5%). Objective data helps.

+1 This was going to be my suggestion. Send some informative articles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I remind my children, the purpose of a good education to learn and to grow as a person, not to wave a round a diploma, or throw your alma mater's sweatshirt in someone's face. It is unfortunate that the well-off (for the most part) use their privilege as a tool to gain/sustain entry, and as a tool to look down on others.

Harvard receives 60,000 applications a year (https://www.ivywise.com/blog/harvard-waitlist-how-hard-is-it-to-get-off-of-it/) if you are not one of the 3% that gets in, that must make you stupid, I guess (eye-roll emoji)...

Give the grandparents a thought exercise - what would the world look like if a great education was accessible and attainable for everyone? The artists can study art, the scientists science, etc. I think we would be better off as a species.

I attended CMU, and transferred to Northeastern (Physics major). I was very surprised to find out CMU, NU, and MIT all used the same physics book?! Then it dawned on me, you don't learn a different or "special" math at HYPSM... it's all the same stuff.

Math 216/218 at Princeton, Math 55 at Harvard, and math 20700/20800/20900 at UChicago are special - I don't know of any more rigorous freshman math courses anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of us are in the same boat with our parents. They can’t understand why many of us were able to get into T-30’s with (or despite) their hands-off free-range 1980’s parenting, while out enriched, helicoptered kids are lucky to get into places that were considered Safeties during our time.

Ha, to be honest, I don’t understand it myself! Where did all these high flyers come from??

Your generation raised them. Each generation should strive to raise children who exceed them, and your generation succeeded. At least at the top end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am guessing I'm not alone in this, and am wondering how others have handled it.

I attended a HYPSM. My parents basically believe that maybe 10 colleges are good ones, and the rest are lousy. Or more precisely, the kids attending those other schools are not very bright or somehow not worthy. They literally roll their eyes at some of these schools, like Pitt and Wake Forest. I would be thrilled if my kid ended up at either of these! Not to mention many many others.

My parents sort of get that the college landscape has changed but not really, because they occasionally hear of some friend whose grandkid is going to Harvard or Columbia or some such, and then decide that those schools are attainable for my kids.

DH and I are trying to raise happy, healthy, secure kids who are motivated but also live a balanced life. My DD is about to enter 11th grade, and for the last couple years my parents have been pestering me on where she will be applying. I have avoided the subject, which until now hasn't been difficult because we've had no idea. But of course that will soon change and I am dreading upcoming conversations. DD is a great kid, but I think it's unlikely she'd be accepted (or even apply) to a tippy-top school.

What have others done in these situations, where parents/grandparents are relentlessly bringing this up every time they see you? Do you shut them out of the college search for your child (and to what extent? Would you not tell them you're visiting schools, or where you are visiting)? Would you refuse to share an SAT score if asked directly, and if your child didn't object to such sharing? Do you share limited information but then try to steer the conversation elsewhere? In my ideal world they would know nothing until DD has settled on where she is going but I am not sure if this is realistic, and what kind of friction would result. Thanks for any advice. I feel like I need to prepare myself but am not sure of the best approach.

The generation of people that are currently grandparent-age is the worst generation in the history of humanity. (Ex. A - Donald Trump, Ex. B - Bill Clinton) They’re terrible people. Just tell them to f-off.

Let's attack an entire generation of people. That's not weird at all.

The attack is well deserved.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1451/worst-generation-0400/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a grandparent and I am horrified by this thread. My grandchildren are a number of years away from applying to college and I do know how the landscape of college admissions has changed. So, I won't be assuming that my grandchildren can all get into HYPSMC.

Half a dozen years ago, were all of you aware of how the landscape has changed? Were all the parents of their classmates who have become more aware of how challenging the process is initially aware of that? If not and you and classmates' parents have learned, why do you think your parents can't? Remember that they are saying the things they are saying because they love their grandchildren and are interested in them and because they come to the discussion with the loving viewpoint that their grandchildren are very special and from that point of view think that even if the acceptance rate is 1 percent, their special grandchildren should be in that one percent. Saying "you have no right to know anything about this process" is truly a hurtful move.

So, early in your children's high school years, educate your parents. I agree with the advice to print out Naviance from your specific school--especially if your child attends one that knocks legacies, recruited athletes, etc. out of the data. You can also tell them that as a general rule of thumb, the median GPA and SAT/ACT scores of successful UNHOOKED applicants are at or slightly above the 75th percentile for the class as a whole. You can also explain the differences among SCEA, REA, EA, ED and RD. Explain that colleges don't just accept the most qualified applicants. They build a class and that a lot of the places are set aside for first generation students, recruited athletes, donors' kids, etc. Explain that many colleges, especially LACs, take most of the successful UNHOOKED applicants in the early decision round. Explain that many of the top public universities restrict the number of OOS applicants they accept. If your family feels it's necessary to pursue merit aid, explain that and that it means going a tier down. (It can help to say that many colleges won't take any younger kids into account in setting financial aid for the oldest and you just can't blow your savings on the oldest because you NEED to have money available for the younger ones.) If your kid's school has one of those general meetings explaining the admissions landscape and it's permitted to bring a grandparent along, consider doing that. (Your parents may have an easier time accepting reality if you're not the one trying to explain it.) Try to have these conversations outside the presence of your child and BE PATIENT. It may take a while for your parents to understand, but almost all of them will understand eventually.

If necessary, tell your parents that your child is stressed about all this and you are making an effort NOT to add to that pressure by having most conversations with your child be about college admissions. You would appreciate it if they refrained from asking your child questions during this process because you want their conversations with their grandchildren to be pleasant ones and you do NOT want your child to say or think "I don't want to go to grandma's house for Thanksgiving because all they will talk about is applying to college and I am so sick of talking about it." However, YOU will keep them generally informed. Then do that. Yes, you'll be annoyed with them plenty of times, but the goal here is to keep the pressure OFF your kids. If you don't tell your parents --or in-laws--anything, they are more likely to ask your child.

And if your parents do "see the light" use them as a resource. Many of them have more time than you do. So, if your kid wants a school of a certain size in a suburb with or without a strong Greek system where it's possible to double major in data science and philosophy or which offers merit aid to kids with certain stats, tell them and let them get involved in the hunt. Just as long as the suggestions go through you.

If appropriate, go so far as to tell them they can pick one school to add to the application list if it's one that uses the common app and doesn't require too many extra essays--especially if they will pay the application fee. And if that school happens to be their alma mater, allow it unless your kid's school limits the number of apps or the application requires too many essays.

Sorry for the novel...

So many words, lady. The reason we think grandparents don’t want to learn is because all they want to do is talk-talk-talk. Your multiple paragraph post on something you are not involved in illustrates the issue!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My recommendation is to share nothing with anyone, supportive or not. Allow your kid to go through it without the added pressure of others knowing their plans.

100%. As college decisions came in, we kept them to our family only - not wanting our child to be swayed one way or the other by friends and relatives with opinions on the schools she had applied to.

[Anonymous]

I get annoyed when family members make snide comments about private colleges. To each his own. One can exist in a privileged sheltered bubble at any kind of college- public or private. It’s a personal decision and I don’t ask or weigh in or say anything except congrats and good luck and best wishes.