Williams vs Bowdoin?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

Dp, but the difference is that on the Williams model, one student will serve as the lead, turning in their assignment to the other near the end of the week, and that other student wll file an assignment that is responsive to the first student’s (not to the original assignment) then will play the same roles in the discussion with the professor, in which there is only the two students present and the professor. The next week, the roles change, and so on. It’s much different than just having a very small class.

Also worth noting, this is not all classes at Williams. A tutorial is a special option that a student would only take once a year or so, and some chose not to take at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

Dp, but the difference is that on the Williams model, one student will serve as the lead, turning in their assignment to the other near the end of the week, and that other student wll file an assignment that is responsive to the first student’s (not to the original assignment) then will play the same roles in the discussion with the professor, in which there is only the two students present and the professor. The next week, the roles change, and so on. It’s much different than just having a very small class.

Also worth noting, this is not all classes at Williams. A tutorial is a special option that a student would only take once a year or so, and some chose not to take at all.

I think that’s neat. But I don’t really think it’s more neat than students doing peer reviews of one another’s work at other schools (which everyone does multiple times at our kid’s school at least) to develop the same type of skills. The bigger point perhaps is that I believe the Williams tutorials are predominately not in STEM fields. I think there are 10 across all STEM depts next year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

Dp, but the difference is that on the Williams model, one student will serve as the lead, turning in their assignment to the other near the end of the week, and that other student wll file an assignment that is responsive to the first student’s (not to the original assignment) then will play the same roles in the discussion with the professor, in which there is only the two students present and the professor. The next week, the roles change, and so on. It’s much different than just having a very small class.

Also worth noting, this is not all classes at Williams. A tutorial is a special option that a student would only take once a year or so, and some chose not to take at all.

I think that’s neat. But I don’t really think it’s more neat than students doing peer reviews of one another’s work at other schools (which everyone does multiple times at our kid’s school at least) to develop the same type of skills. The bigger point perhaps is that I believe the Williams tutorials are predominately not in STEM fields. I think there are 10 across all STEM depts next year.

I would much rather have a graduate PhD student review my student's work than another undergraduate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

The Claremont McKenna PPE classes are the closest comparison - also based on the Oxford model. I guess the difference is you must be accepted into the PPE program in order to take them, and that is limited to 24 students per year I believe. You apply fall of sophomore year. (I love CMC btw and would be so happy for my kid to go there or Pomona). Yes Pomona has those 2-3 person tutorials in specific upper level Physics classes. I honestly do not think one is "better" than the other - just that it is worth understanding them and if they will be important to you. 50% of students at Williams never take a tutorial, but of the 50% who do, 75% take at least one more. Is it THE deciding factor for those students? Probably not but it is one factor for many, as are myriad other things about colleges. These schools we are discussing are ALL amazing schools, and they are more alike than they are different, but I don't think it's terribly constructive to try to say small classes or specific classes in one program are the same as the Williams tutorial system, which has probably 60-70 tutorials available each year. Yes they are mainly the humanities - last time I looked, there were maybe 20 in lab sciences and math. Most excellent schools have something that is special or unique to their curriculum - and I am glad kids can dive into this stuff when they are getting ready to apply. Not sure why it turns into such a point of contention for some parents, or why it produces such vitriol (not from you!!!!) from some about the "Williams tutorials BS" lol.

[Anonymous]

Can confirm Williams students are incredibly snobby about other schools. DD was deciding between Pomona and Wellesley and they largely said it would be stupid to turn Williams down. The kids at the others were much kinder and more humble, offering very useful perspective rather than blanket statements. Ultimately went to Wellesley and was very happy. Williams is akin to the Harvard of the LACs for all the good and bad that comes with it. Bowdoin would be like Dartmouth or Brown- more down to earth, less prestige obsessed students. Sure the brand is slightly weaker but the bowdoin group wouldn’t want to by anywhere else.

[Anonymous]

*be

[Anonymous]

Williams commands respect

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

Dp, but the difference is that on the Williams model, one student will serve as the lead, turning in their assignment to the other near the end of the week, and that other student wll file an assignment that is responsive to the first student’s (not to the original assignment) then will play the same roles in the discussion with the professor, in which there is only the two students present and the professor. The next week, the roles change, and so on. It’s much different than just having a very small class.

Also worth noting, this is not all classes at Williams. A tutorial is a special option that a student would only take once a year or so, and some chose not to take at all.

I think that’s neat. But I don’t really think it’s more neat than students doing peer reviews of one another’s work at other schools (which everyone does multiple times at our kid’s school at least) to develop the same type of skills. The bigger point perhaps is that I believe the Williams tutorials are predominately not in STEM fields. I think there are 10 across all STEM depts next year.

I would much rather have a graduate PhD student review my student's work than another undergraduate.

Obviously the professor is reviewing both. Personally don’t want TAs involved with my kid’s education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

The Claremont McKenna PPE classes are the closest comparison - also based on the Oxford model. I guess the difference is you must be accepted into the PPE program in order to take them, and that is limited to 24 students per year I believe. You apply fall of sophomore year. (I love CMC btw and would be so happy for my kid to go there or Pomona). Yes Pomona has those 2-3 person tutorials in specific upper level Physics classes. I honestly do not think one is "better" than the other - just that it is worth understanding them and if they will be important to you. 50% of students at Williams never take a tutorial, but of the 50% who do, 75% take at least one more. Is it THE deciding factor for those students? Probably not but it is one factor for many, as are myriad other things about colleges. These schools we are discussing are ALL amazing schools, and they are more alike than they are different, but I don't think it's terribly constructive to try to say small classes or specific classes in one program are the same as the Williams tutorial system, which has probably 60-70 tutorials available each year. Yes they are mainly the humanities - last time I looked, there were maybe 20 in lab sciences and math. Most excellent schools have something that is special or unique to their curriculum - and I am glad kids can dive into this stuff when they are getting ready to apply. Not sure why it turns into such a point of contention for some parents, or why it produces such vitriol (not from you!!!!) from some about the "Williams tutorials BS" lol.

I agree, very strange how people want to argue about the tutorials. It doesn’t appeal to some kids but does to others sort of like the 5 school consortium at Amherst. I’m sure Bowdoin also has something unique, just not familiar with it because my kids never looked at it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

Dp, but the difference is that on the Williams model, one student will serve as the lead, turning in their assignment to the other near the end of the week, and that other student wll file an assignment that is responsive to the first student’s (not to the original assignment) then will play the same roles in the discussion with the professor, in which there is only the two students present and the professor. The next week, the roles change, and so on. It’s much different than just having a very small class.

Also worth noting, this is not all classes at Williams. A tutorial is a special option that a student would only take once a year or so, and some chose not to take at all.

I think that’s neat. But I don’t really think it’s more neat than students doing peer reviews of one another’s work at other schools (which everyone does multiple times at our kid’s school at least) to develop the same type of skills. The bigger point perhaps is that I believe the Williams tutorials are predominately not in STEM fields. I think there are 10 across all STEM depts next year.

I would much rather have a graduate PhD student review my student's work than another undergraduate.

Obviously the professor is reviewing both. Personally don’t want TAs involved with my kid’s education.

Yet you would have your child's time wasted by review from another undergrad student ???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

Dp, but the difference is that on the Williams model, one student will serve as the lead, turning in their assignment to the other near the end of the week, and that other student wll file an assignment that is responsive to the first student’s (not to the original assignment) then will play the same roles in the discussion with the professor, in which there is only the two students present and the professor. The next week, the roles change, and so on. It’s much different than just having a very small class.

Also worth noting, this is not all classes at Williams. A tutorial is a special option that a student would only take once a year or so, and some chose not to take at all.

I think that’s neat. But I don’t really think it’s more neat than students doing peer reviews of one another’s work at other schools (which everyone does multiple times at our kid’s school at least) to develop the same type of skills. The bigger point perhaps is that I believe the Williams tutorials are predominately not in STEM fields. I think there are 10 across all STEM depts next year.

I would much rather have a graduate PhD student review my student's work than another undergraduate.

Obviously the professor is reviewing both. Personally don’t want TAs involved with my kid’s education.

Yet you would have your child's time wasted by review from another undergrad student ???

Perhaps this is too obvious to note, but the main point of peer reviews lies in the value to the reviewing student, not to the reviewed student -- or to the pair of students together, since it fosters dialogue and shared interests, which in turn can send the tutorial in a new direction.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

Dp, but the difference is that on the Williams model, one student will serve as the lead, turning in their assignment to the other near the end of the week, and that other student wll file an assignment that is responsive to the first student’s (not to the original assignment) then will play the same roles in the discussion with the professor, in which there is only the two students present and the professor. The next week, the roles change, and so on. It’s much different than just having a very small class.

Also worth noting, this is not all classes at Williams. A tutorial is a special option that a student would only take once a year or so, and some chose not to take at all.

I think that’s neat. But I don’t really think it’s more neat than students doing peer reviews of one another’s work at other schools (which everyone does multiple times at our kid’s school at least) to develop the same type of skills. The bigger point perhaps is that I believe the Williams tutorials are predominately not in STEM fields. I think there are 10 across all STEM depts next year.

I would much rather have a graduate PhD student review my student's work than another undergraduate.

Obviously the professor is reviewing both. Personally don’t want TAs involved with my kid’s education.

Yet you would have your child's time wasted by review from another undergrad student ???

What part of the professor running the tutorial do you not get?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

Dp, but the difference is that on the Williams model, one student will serve as the lead, turning in their assignment to the other near the end of the week, and that other student wll file an assignment that is responsive to the first student’s (not to the original assignment) then will play the same roles in the discussion with the professor, in which there is only the two students present and the professor. The next week, the roles change, and so on. It’s much different than just having a very small class.

Also worth noting, this is not all classes at Williams. A tutorial is a special option that a student would only take once a year or so, and some chose not to take at all.

I think that’s neat. But I don’t really think it’s more neat than students doing peer reviews of one another’s work at other schools (which everyone does multiple times at our kid’s school at least) to develop the same type of skills. The bigger point perhaps is that I believe the Williams tutorials are predominately not in STEM fields. I think there are 10 across all STEM depts next year.

I would much rather have a graduate PhD student review my student's work than another undergraduate.

Obviously the professor is reviewing both. Personally don’t want TAs involved with my kid’s education.

Yet you would have your child's time wasted by review from another undergrad student ???

What part of the professor running the tutorial do you not get?

The part where a freshman or sophomore or junior is reviewing another undergraduate's work. Wasted time. Better to have a grad student do so.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about. [/quote]
I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States). [/quote]

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus. [/quote]
DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.[/quote]

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway. [/quote]
Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.[/quote]

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia. [/quote]
What upper div Williams Requires: Electricity and Magnetism, Vibration Waves and Optics (Intro, also known as "Baby," Quantum Mechanics), Math Methods, Quantum Physics (Big Quantum), Statistical Mechanics and Thermo
What upper div Bowdoin Requires: Electric Fields and Circuits (E&M), Quantum Physics and Relativity, Statistical Physics (This is Stat mech and thermo). Bowdoin tucks Baby Quantum into Intro Physics II.
[/quote]

Waves and Optics isn’t really “baby quantum,” nor does that course even serve the role of introducing quantum physics in the Williams curriculum. Some waves material can help prepare the student for higher level quantum topics, but that particular dedicated waves/optics course appears missing from Bowdoin’s requirements, and Bowdoin doesn’t appear to require the equivalent to Williams upper level quantum mechanics anyway. There are many other differences in their requirements but I think there must’ve been some trolling going on cause the differences aren’t hard to see. There are similarities and differences in any two schools’ STEM curriculums, not just physics, so none of this is super surprising. If a student takes additional courses to go beyond the requirements the differences become more subtle but, based on the available descriptions, there would still be differences. Also not surprising.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

What upper div Williams Requires: Electricity and Magnetism, Vibration Waves and Optics (Intro, also known as "Baby," Quantum Mechanics), Math Methods, Quantum Physics (Big Quantum), Statistical Mechanics and Thermo
What upper div Bowdoin Requires: Electric Fields and Circuits (E&M), Quantum Physics and Relativity, Statistical Physics (This is Stat mech and thermo). Bowdoin tucks Baby Quantum into Intro Physics II.

Trying that again…

Waves and Optics isn’t really “baby quantum,” nor does that course even serve the role of introducing quantum physics in the Williams curriculum. Some waves material can help prepare the student for higher level quantum topics, but that particular dedicated waves/optics course appears missing from Bowdoin’s requirements, and Bowdoin doesn’t appear to require the equivalent to Williams upper level quantum mechanics anyway. There are many other differences in their requirements but I think there must’ve been some trolling going on cause the differences aren’t hard to see. There are similarities and differences in any two schools’ STEM curriculums, not just physics, so none of this is super surprising. If a student takes additional courses to go beyond the requirements the differences become more subtle but, based on the available descriptions, there would still be differences. Also not surprising.