Williams vs Bowdoin?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

DP, but share the courses then. My DD is majoring in physics and agrees with PP. It really wouldn’t make sense to have a physics major without the core physics classes. What are they teaching at your Alma mater and how are those kids doing in grad physics if they’ve never seen Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Mechanics, or E&M

No one said there weren’t core courses. Someone claimed Williams had no advanced courses that weren’t required. It was noted that they did, and that required courses still count, and that the content of required courses is not entirely identical from one school to the next, which she would know if she read the sites in question for multiple schools. 90% the same isn’t identical.

[Anonymous]

I did not say my alma mater had fewer requirements.

But two schools using the same textbooks for the same courses wouldn’t necessarily have the same results. “But we use the same books!” is a worn trope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

DP, but share the courses then. My DD is majoring in physics and agrees with PP. It really wouldn’t make sense to have a physics major without the core physics classes. What are they teaching at your Alma mater and how are those kids doing in grad physics if they’ve never seen Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Mechanics, or E&M

No one said there weren’t core courses. Someone claimed Williams had no advanced courses that weren’t required. It was noted that they did, and that required courses still count, and that the content of required courses is not entirely identical from one school to the next, which she would know if she read the sites in question for multiple schools. 90% the same isn’t identical.

What are the courses? This seems itd be a lot easier if either of you listed the courses

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

You seem really ticked off. You brought up physics, this is why it's being mentioned, so if you didn't want to talk about it, please don't bring it up. Welcome to discussions.
What upper div Williams Requires: Electricity and Magnetism, Vibration Waves and Optics (Intro, also known as "Baby," Quantum Mechanics), Math Methods, Quantum Physics (Big Quantum), Statistical Mechanics and Thermo
What upper div Bowdoin Requires: Electric Fields and Circuits (E&M), Quantum Physics and Relativity, Statistical Physics (This is Stat mech and thermo). Bowdoin tucks Baby Quantum into Intro Physics II.
I genuinely don't think you know anything about Physics. These are core classes you need to be able to apply to graduate study in Physics. Everyone takes these classes no matter the institution.

You got ticked off from “amused”?

You are resorting to personal insults because you didn’t read their websites carefully.

You don’t even have to read their websites carefully to appreciate the outcome differences.

Both my kids have physics degrees. I have a physics degree. I wrote lab manuals at a top 5 physics program earlier in my career. You don’t really warrant more of my time if you would rather insult than learn.

Most of their comment was substantive. Could you at least respond to it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

DP, but share the courses then. My DD is majoring in physics and agrees with PP. It really wouldn’t make sense to have a physics major without the core physics classes. What are they teaching at your Alma mater and how are those kids doing in grad physics if they’ve never seen Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Mechanics, or E&M

No one said there weren’t core courses. Someone claimed Williams had no advanced courses that weren’t required. It was noted that they did, and that required courses still count, and that the content of required courses is not entirely identical from one school to the next, which she would know if she read the sites in question for multiple schools. 90% the same isn’t identical.

What are the courses? This seems itd be a lot easier if either of you listed the courses

Did you not try to look for yourself? Is it not enough you were told what to look for?

- course titles
- course content
- number of courses that have lab
- number of required courses

Even if all the above were identical (none are) outcomes can vary depending on instruction quality, student quality, facilities, etc. The outcomes of several schools are similar/better to Williams’ physics program, but not Bowdoin’s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

DP, but share the courses then. My DD is majoring in physics and agrees with PP. It really wouldn’t make sense to have a physics major without the core physics classes. What are they teaching at your Alma mater and how are those kids doing in grad physics if they’ve never seen Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Mechanics, or E&M

No one said there weren’t core courses. Someone claimed Williams had no advanced courses that weren’t required. It was noted that they did, and that required courses still count, and that the content of required courses is not entirely identical from one school to the next, which she would know if she read the sites in question for multiple schools. 90% the same isn’t identical.

What are the courses? This seems itd be a lot easier if either of you listed the courses

Did you not try to look for yourself? Is it not enough you were told what to look for?

- course titles
- course content
- number of courses that have lab
- number of required courses

Even if all the above were identical (none are) outcomes can vary depending on instruction quality, student quality, facilities, etc. The outcomes of several schools are similar/better to Williams’ physics program, but not Bowdoin’s.

You are threatened and afraid when someone asks you to bring up any examples. The other poster has brought up course titles, while you just make big assumptions and don’t really seem to research. I’m not sure what the obsession with Williams physics is for you, but this isn’t how dialogue works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Other schools don’t have 2:1 classes with profs? Other schools have student led discussion? I think many LACs do. The exact structure is a bit different with each.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1

If you want small discussion type classes, consider U Chicago, Northwestern, Columbia, Claremont McKenna, and many others. The Williams college "tutorials" bs is getting old.

I have no horse in this race - they are both phenomenal schools and I hope my ds applies to both. That said, I just want to correct the misinformation about the tutorials - I sometimes hear said that other schools offer the same type of tutorials Williams does. That is simply not true - nor is what the poster above says about tutorials having up to 10 students. Yes, 10 students can register for a tutorial, but the way the class time works is that the professor splits the group into pairs and each pair meets with that professor weekly. They are assigned reading for the week; one student writes a paper and shares it with the other student, who writes a response to the paper. (STEM classes have less reading and more problem sets, labs, etc.) At their next class, they discuss. The students switch off on the paper and response for the rest of the semester. The 10 students are not in the same class - they may meet occasionally, to hear a speaker for example, or for dinner with the professor at the end of the semester - but the tutorial is 2 students/1 professor. It is not the same as other small classes (which Williams and many other schools offer, of course). The reason people mention the Williams tutorials so often is because they are unique to Williams - if anyone knows of another US college that offers this, please let me know.

Maybe I’m unsure of tutorial, but DS goes to Pomona for physics and upper div classes are called tutorial- in the first class you are put in a tutorial group of maximum 2-3 students and you get weekly reading, then you get assigned a problem where you have a window to talk with and bring up your ideas with your professor, then the class meets later that week and you each discuss and debate the solution to your problem. Maybe that isn’t tutorial.

I know Claremont McKenna does have tutorial for PPE- it’s imported straight from Oxford. Since my kids go to college in California, that’s where my knowledge is, but I’m sure there’s other colleges with a tutorial system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

DP, but share the courses then. My DD is majoring in physics and agrees with PP. It really wouldn’t make sense to have a physics major without the core physics classes. What are they teaching at your Alma mater and how are those kids doing in grad physics if they’ve never seen Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Mechanics, or E&M

No one said there weren’t core courses. Someone claimed Williams had no advanced courses that weren’t required. It was noted that they did, and that required courses still count, and that the content of required courses is not entirely identical from one school to the next, which she would know if she read the sites in question for multiple schools. 90% the same isn’t identical.

What are the courses? This seems itd be a lot easier if either of you listed the courses

Did you not try to look for yourself? Is it not enough you were told what to look for?

- course titles
- course content
- number of courses that have lab
- number of required courses

Even if all the above were identical (none are) outcomes can vary depending on instruction quality, student quality, facilities, etc. The outcomes of several schools are similar/better to Williams’ physics program, but not Bowdoin’s.

You are threatened and afraid when someone asks you to bring up any examples. The other poster has brought up course titles, while you just make big assumptions and don’t really seem to research. I’m not sure what the obsession with Williams physics is for you, but this isn’t how dialogue works.

“Dialog” is not insulting people needlessly. Nor hijacking a thread.

If you can answer this politely I will engage further: how many required labs do both schools have? They are not the same.

I have zero affiliation with Williams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

DP, but share the courses then. My DD is majoring in physics and agrees with PP. It really wouldn’t make sense to have a physics major without the core physics classes. What are they teaching at your Alma mater and how are those kids doing in grad physics if they’ve never seen Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Mechanics, or E&M

No one said there weren’t core courses. Someone claimed Williams had no advanced courses that weren’t required. It was noted that they did, and that required courses still count, and that the content of required courses is not entirely identical from one school to the next, which she would know if she read the sites in question for multiple schools. 90% the same isn’t identical.

What are the courses? This seems itd be a lot easier if either of you listed the courses

Did you not try to look for yourself? Is it not enough you were told what to look for?

- course titles
- course content
- number of courses that have lab
- number of required courses

Even if all the above were identical (none are) outcomes can vary depending on instruction quality, student quality, facilities, etc. The outcomes of several schools are similar/better to Williams’ physics program, but not Bowdoin’s.

You are threatened and afraid when someone asks you to bring up any examples. The other poster has brought up course titles, while you just make big assumptions and don’t really seem to research. I’m not sure what the obsession with Williams physics is for you, but this isn’t how dialogue works.

“Dialog” is not insulting people needlessly. Nor hijacking a thread.

If you can answer this politely I will engage further: how many required labs do both schools have? They are not the same.

I have zero affiliation with Williams.

Dialogue…
And I’m glad to know you do not want to converse at all. Thanks for wasting everyone’s time. Yeesh, people here are temperamental.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

DP, but share the courses then. My DD is majoring in physics and agrees with PP. It really wouldn’t make sense to have a physics major without the core physics classes. What are they teaching at your Alma mater and how are those kids doing in grad physics if they’ve never seen Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Mechanics, or E&M

No one said there weren’t core courses. Someone claimed Williams had no advanced courses that weren’t required. It was noted that they did, and that required courses still count, and that the content of required courses is not entirely identical from one school to the next, which she would know if she read the sites in question for multiple schools. 90% the same isn’t identical.

What are the courses? This seems itd be a lot easier if either of you listed the courses

Did you not try to look for yourself? Is it not enough you were told what to look for?

- course titles
- course content
- number of courses that have lab
- number of required courses

Even if all the above were identical (none are) outcomes can vary depending on instruction quality, student quality, facilities, etc. The outcomes of several schools are similar/better to Williams’ physics program, but not Bowdoin’s.

You are threatened and afraid when someone asks you to bring up any examples. The other poster has brought up course titles, while you just make big assumptions and don’t really seem to research. I’m not sure what the obsession with Williams physics is for you, but this isn’t how dialogue works.

“Dialog” is not insulting people needlessly. Nor hijacking a thread.

If you can answer this politely I will engage further: how many required labs do both schools have? They are not the same.

I have zero affiliation with Williams.

Dialogue…
And I’m glad to know you do not want to converse at all. Thanks for wasting everyone’s time. Yeesh, people here are temperamental.

More insults! Hooray for you!

(The answer was Bowdoin 3 and Williams 6. That and every other example of a curriculum difference takes about 5 min of reading to find. But because of your attitude, I’m done trying to help you. If someone else wants to know more, please create a new thread titled “Bowdoin vs Williams for Physics.”)

[Anonymous]

Oh, and this for other readers might be interesting (click on physics, scroll to right for normalized rate):

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and this for other readers might be interesting (click on physics, scroll to right for normalized rate):

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

That Harvey mudd is the best liberal arts college for physics? That's already well known, it's a specialized stem school. Same with Reed, it's always recommended for a reason. I guess it also is interesting that Haverford is so high, but Bryn Mawr does have a long history of excellence in physics!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and this for other readers might be interesting (click on physics, scroll to right for normalized rate):

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

That Harvey mudd is the best liberal arts college for physics? That's already well known, it's a specialized stem school. Same with Reed, it's always recommended for a reason. I guess it also is interesting that Haverford is so high, but Bryn Mawr does have a long history of excellence in physics!

Indeed.

https://www.brynmawr.edu/inside/academic-information/departments-programs/physics