Williams vs Bowdoin?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

Because Williams has more students overall in physics. It's going to be a very similar experience. It's not Harvey mudd.

Or Reed. Both are great places to go for college. Apker award is nice, but basically just luck of draw that you get a very talented undergraduate student.

[Anonymous]

Go Ephs. Williams alum here but in my mind, there’s no difference between Williams and Bowdoin. Both are great schools- it comes down to fit. Williams is isolated but I think athletes may feel it less because of their time commitment (and opportunities to leave campus for athletic travel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren’t they the same size? Both are relatively isolated so go with where your kid likes best. Econ is a strength at Williams.

Bowdoin has an Amtrak station one block from campus. Literally 15 minutes from Freeport, quick trip to Portland or Boston. Small town Maine does not = isolation.

Brunswick downtown is also a walk from campus. Williamstown has no downtown to speak of — 1/2 a block of retail, on one side of the street. They are not a wash in terms of isolation. Yes, they are isolated both, but Williamstown is way, way more isolated.

It is small but more like two blocks, both sides of the street, hand picked to have everything a student will need. Nearby North Adams has a big art scene, and grocery stores, etc. To me, Maine seems more isolated but I think that’s just a function of it being further away, we were surprised how quickly we could get to Williams from Manhattan (4 hours door to door). YMMV

that big mountain looming in the distance makes it feel like siberia in the winter lol - it’s no joke in williamstown between November and March. At least Bowdoin is near the water, which to me always felt less smothering or trapped than I did in Williamstown

Different strokes for different folks. To many, the big mountain looming in the distance means tons of skiing, which is very appealing. Williamstown is tiny. But it has a pizza place, Chinese, pub, etc. It would admittedly likely get claustrophobic, but do a semester abroad. What good does water do you in the middle of a Maine winter except make it more cold?

People can argue that the mentality that Williams is better is dated. And they might be right. But this is the mentality of people who graduated from HS in the 90s, and guess who is hiring now? These people. You can tell them all you want that they need to change their opinions, but they don't have to do anything. From my highly competitive HS in the 90s, the only person who got into Williams turned it down for Yale. I knew plenty of kids who got rejected or waitlisted by Williams (and Amherst) who got into Ivies. People who strongly wanted Bowdoin weren't even considering Ivies as they had no chance. Bowdoin was more on par with Hamilton, Union, Colgate, etc.

Two of the smartest (and nicest, most interesting) people I knew in my top tier MBA class went to Williams. I don't think there were any Bowdoin alums. This is a ridiculously small sample size as two years later it might have been reversed. But it makes a difference.

I know things have changed. But it is hard to unwind this in people's minds.

I'd be surprised if most think of either, at all. They're good undergraduate colleges, but most I know just filter in the top 5 or so-Williams, Pomona, Swarthmore, Amherst, occasionally Midd/Wesleyan/even Haverford depending on age and think of them all alike. These colleges really haven't changed all that much; there's a few who are higher than they used to be: Claremont McKenna, Denison, more people aware of Harvey Mudd because of the recent stem craze, even Grinnell.

LACs lack the marketing and word-of-mouth numbers of universities but make up for it somewhat with a more self-selecting applicant pool and, more so, undergraduate focus. Those named above are all great, but there are a couple dozen more that are also great. Rather than go off topic further, I would just point the reader to USNWR to get a general sense of schools to research further. I would caution against taking rank literally and instead evaluate for personal fit.

If OP’s kid likes Bowdoin more after visiting, I would not let the higher rank of Williams cloud the issue at all. Even if the difference were 20 spots rather than the actual 4.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

[Anonymous]

Bowdoin has a better location IMO. Williams may be stronger on paper for econ, but I think the same outplacement opportunities will exist as an athlete from either school. My kids could not have gotten into either, but anecdotally, the kids who went to Bowdoin seemed to enjoy their college experience more than the Williams kids -- this is a sample size of like 7 over 5 years so take that with a BIG grain of salt.

have you asked about application support? D3/NESCAC recruiting is something I don't know much about... will both schools give prereads for ED? Will both coaches use up their "support" spot for your kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Williams is far more well regarded

By whom?

No difference between the two. They are small schools, people know one would know both.

The girl accepted by five ivies waitlisted by two with 1370 sat will not apply to Williams or Bowdoin.

[Anonymous]

Bowdoin’s location is superior. But if the kid truly doesn’t have a preference, I would dig deeper into what the athletic experience will be at each. Williams’ teams are better in nearly all sports. Would your kid be an impact player at both? Or potentially have more of a chance to compete at Bowdoin? Do they really like both coaches equally?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

You seem really ticked off. You brought up physics, this is why it's being mentioned, so if you didn't want to talk about it, please don't bring it up. Welcome to discussions.
What upper div Williams Requires: Electricity and Magnetism, Vibration Waves and Optics (Intro, also known as "Baby," Quantum Mechanics), Math Methods, Quantum Physics (Big Quantum), Statistical Mechanics and Thermo
What upper div Bowdoin Requires: Electric Fields and Circuits (E&M), Quantum Physics and Relativity, Statistical Physics (This is Stat mech and thermo). Bowdoin tucks Baby Quantum into Intro Physics II.
I genuinely don't think you know anything about Physics. These are core classes you need to be able to apply to graduate study in Physics. Everyone takes these classes no matter the institution.

[Anonymous]

Williams has a better reputation, I say this as a parent of a Bowdoin student. It also won't make any difference in results esp. for an athlete. A lot of sophomore athletes who are Econ majors already have very nice internships for summer 26.

Williams is a magical place for the right student, I think a wider range of students can be happy at Bowdoin. Bowdoin has better food, better dorms, equally good Outing Clubs (just purchased land near skiing which should mean more Outing Trips for skiing). Amtrak is one block off campus, Brunswick has a lot to offer and Portland is easy to get to and becoming a bit of a foodie destination.

Besides sailing, Williams is going to have the more competitive teams, the gap seems to be closing some in recent years but still large.
Visit and speak to other athletes, there is no bad choice.

[Anonymous]

Bowdoin by far. Prettier campus, more convenient with a train a block away, happier students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

DP, but share the courses then. My DD is majoring in physics and agrees with PP. It really wouldn’t make sense to have a physics major without the core physics classes. What are they teaching at your Alma mater and how are those kids doing in grad physics if they’ve never seen Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Mechanics, or E&M

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

You seem really ticked off. You brought up physics, this is why it's being mentioned, so if you didn't want to talk about it, please don't bring it up. Welcome to discussions.
What upper div Williams Requires: Electricity and Magnetism, Vibration Waves and Optics (Intro, also known as "Baby," Quantum Mechanics), Math Methods, Quantum Physics (Big Quantum), Statistical Mechanics and Thermo
What upper div Bowdoin Requires: Electric Fields and Circuits (E&M), Quantum Physics and Relativity, Statistical Physics (This is Stat mech and thermo). Bowdoin tucks Baby Quantum into Intro Physics II.
I genuinely don't think you know anything about Physics. These are core classes you need to be able to apply to graduate study in Physics. Everyone takes these classes no matter the institution.

You got ticked off from “amused”?

You are resorting to personal insults because you didn’t read their websites carefully.

You don’t even have to read their websites carefully to appreciate the outcome differences.

Both my kids have physics degrees. I have a physics degree. I wrote lab manuals at a top 5 physics program earlier in my career. You don’t really warrant more of my time if you would rather insult than learn.