Williams vs Bowdoin?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

Many LACs do have something similar but don't market it the way Williams does. Many kids at Williams don't take any tutorials or only take one over the course of their studies.

[Anonymous]

You should visit if you haven't, because they do feel different. Williams feels much more isolated, to me, despite being in Mass., and despite being in Maine, Brunswick feels busier and more connected to the NE corridor.

[Anonymous]

the tutorials are a boon for the more academicslly minded kids, but most of the athletes - 40% give or take - aren’t looking to be challenged academically- they want the Williams degree, to have a fun 4 years, and land a good job

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren’t they the same size? Both are relatively isolated so go with where your kid likes best. Econ is a strength at Williams.

Bowdoin has an Amtrak station one block from campus. Literally 15 minutes from Freeport, quick trip to Portland or Boston. Small town Maine does not = isolation.

Brunswick downtown is also a walk from campus. Williamstown has no downtown to speak of — 1/2 a block of retail, on one side of the street. They are not a wash in terms of isolation. Yes, they are isolated both, but Williamstown is way, way more isolated.

It is small but more like two blocks, both sides of the street, hand picked to have everything a student will need. Nearby North Adams has a big art scene, and grocery stores, etc. To me, Maine seems more isolated but I think that’s just a function of it being further away, we were surprised how quickly we could get to Williams from Manhattan (4 hours door to door). YMMV

Oh, come on. Williams might be better for you because of Manhattan, but the town has nothing compared to Brunswick. Does Williamstown even have a pizza place? I think I could count the businesses on one hand, two hands at the most. Brunswick has 5-10x as much. If they are indeed two blocks, they are mini-blocks. OP is encouraged to use google maps and see for themself.

North Adams is a pit. Yes, you can go grocery shopping there…I get that MOMA is there, but you make it sound like Northampton, MA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is far more well regarded

OP here - to this comment, my kid did say that it seemed as if all of the athletes he met at Williams were targeting ivies and “had to settle” for Williams - but Bowdoin kids mostly conveyed that they had that school as first choice - just anecdotal based on his conversations with the kids, but pretty interesting. Would def make sense if Williams is seen as being more well regarded as poster indicates

We were completely turned off by Williams after our visit because of the students, surprisingly. Our DS was talking to a group of students and explaining he was choosing between their, Pomona, and Swarthmore, and they started laughing and saying "Williams is the easiest answer." Students really seemed to think highly of themselves, which was honestly surprising for a liberal arts college, and so many people brought up the #1 LAC rank as if it meant anything. Bowdoin had lovely, friendly students!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams is the only LAC my kid is considering, the tutorials really set it apart. But that won’t appeal to every kid.

The tutorials are great, but every good LAC makes it easy to do something similar, like an independent study. My third year student (attending a different school) is on their 4th at the moment, with at least 2 more happening next year. Tutorials have the benefit of being well structured by the prof ahead of time, but an independent study can demonstrate greater ability to navigate the unknown on the part of the student.

You can do an independent study anywhere, including universities, but the tutorials are unique to Williams among US schools.

The branding is unique to Williams. Their tutorials can have up to 10 students. So by that criteria my kid’s LAC has roughly 50 tutorials, they just call them courses.

I think highly of Williams but I have never heard of someone applying there and no other LACs simply because of its “tutorials.” Some depts, like CS, offered none this year. Some, like Math, offered only 2. Chem offered one.

Independent projects offer more personalization, but if looking for small discussion type classes, Williams is not unique.

Don’t fall for marketing.

+1, many colleges also have tutorial-based departments, they just don't speak of it, because the main point is that class sizes are small. DS's lac physics major has nearly all upper division courses in tutorial style. It's mentioned once on the department website, but the college isn't going to bow on its knees that it is unique in this offering. Williams does a similar thing with the Oxford program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren’t they the same size? Both are relatively isolated so go with where your kid likes best. Econ is a strength at Williams.

Bowdoin has an Amtrak station one block from campus. Literally 15 minutes from Freeport, quick trip to Portland or Boston. Small town Maine does not = isolation.

Brunswick downtown is also a walk from campus. Williamstown has no downtown to speak of — 1/2 a block of retail, on one side of the street. They are not a wash in terms of isolation. Yes, they are isolated both, but Williamstown is way, way more isolated.

It is small but more like two blocks, both sides of the street, hand picked to have everything a student will need. Nearby North Adams has a big art scene, and grocery stores, etc. To me, Maine seems more isolated but I think that’s just a function of it being further away, we were surprised how quickly we could get to Williams from Manhattan (4 hours door to door). YMMV

that big mountain looming in the distance makes it feel like siberia in the winter lol - it’s no joke in williamstown between November and March. At least Bowdoin is near the water, which to me always felt less smothering or trapped than I did in Williamstown

Different strokes for different folks. To many, the big mountain looming in the distance means tons of skiing, which is very appealing. Williamstown is tiny. But it has a pizza place, Chinese, pub, etc. It would admittedly likely get claustrophobic, but do a semester abroad. What good does water do you in the middle of a Maine winter except make it more cold?

People can argue that the mentality that Williams is better is dated. And they might be right. But this is the mentality of people who graduated from HS in the 90s, and guess who is hiring now? These people. You can tell them all you want that they need to change their opinions, but they don't have to do anything. From my highly competitive HS in the 90s, the only person who got into Williams turned it down for Yale. I knew plenty of kids who got rejected or waitlisted by Williams (and Amherst) who got into Ivies. People who strongly wanted Bowdoin weren't even considering Ivies as they had no chance. Bowdoin was more on par with Hamilton, Union, Colgate, etc.

Two of the smartest (and nicest, most interesting) people I knew in my top tier MBA class went to Williams. I don't think there were any Bowdoin alums. This is a ridiculously small sample size as two years later it might have been reversed. But it makes a difference.

I know things have changed. But it is hard to unwind this in people's minds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren’t they the same size? Both are relatively isolated so go with where your kid likes best. Econ is a strength at Williams.

Bowdoin has an Amtrak station one block from campus. Literally 15 minutes from Freeport, quick trip to Portland or Boston. Small town Maine does not = isolation.

Brunswick downtown is also a walk from campus. Williamstown has no downtown to speak of — 1/2 a block of retail, on one side of the street. They are not a wash in terms of isolation. Yes, they are isolated both, but Williamstown is way, way more isolated.

It is small but more like two blocks, both sides of the street, hand picked to have everything a student will need. Nearby North Adams has a big art scene, and grocery stores, etc. To me, Maine seems more isolated but I think that’s just a function of it being further away, we were surprised how quickly we could get to Williams from Manhattan (4 hours door to door). YMMV

that big mountain looming in the distance makes it feel like siberia in the winter lol - it’s no joke in williamstown between November and March. At least Bowdoin is near the water, which to me always felt less smothering or trapped than I did in Williamstown

Different strokes for different folks. To many, the big mountain looming in the distance means tons of skiing, which is very appealing. Williamstown is tiny. But it has a pizza place, Chinese, pub, etc. It would admittedly likely get claustrophobic, but do a semester abroad. What good does water do you in the middle of a Maine winter except make it more cold?

People can argue that the mentality that Williams is better is dated. And they might be right. But this is the mentality of people who graduated from HS in the 90s, and guess who is hiring now? These people. You can tell them all you want that they need to change their opinions, but they don't have to do anything. From my highly competitive HS in the 90s, the only person who got into Williams turned it down for Yale. I knew plenty of kids who got rejected or waitlisted by Williams (and Amherst) who got into Ivies. People who strongly wanted Bowdoin weren't even considering Ivies as they had no chance. Bowdoin was more on par with Hamilton, Union, Colgate, etc.

Two of the smartest (and nicest, most interesting) people I knew in my top tier MBA class went to Williams. I don't think there were any Bowdoin alums. This is a ridiculously small sample size as two years later it might have been reversed. But it makes a difference.

I know things have changed. But it is hard to unwind this in people's minds.

I'd be surprised if most think of either, at all. They're good undergraduate colleges, but most I know just filter in the top 5 or so-Williams, Pomona, Swarthmore, Amherst, occasionally Midd/Wesleyan/even Haverford depending on age and think of them all alike. These colleges really haven't changed all that much; there's a few who are higher than they used to be: Claremont McKenna, Denison, more people aware of Harvey Mudd because of the recent stem craze, even Grinnell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren’t they the same size? Both are relatively isolated so go with where your kid likes best. Econ is a strength at Williams.

Bowdoin has an Amtrak station one block from campus. Literally 15 minutes from Freeport, quick trip to Portland or Boston. Small town Maine does not = isolation.

Brunswick downtown is also a walk from campus. Williamstown has no downtown to speak of — 1/2 a block of retail, on one side of the street. They are not a wash in terms of isolation. Yes, they are isolated both, but Williamstown is way, way more isolated.

It is small but more like two blocks, both sides of the street, hand picked to have everything a student will need. Nearby North Adams has a big art scene, and grocery stores, etc. To me, Maine seems more isolated but I think that’s just a function of it being further away, we were surprised how quickly we could get to Williams from Manhattan (4 hours door to door). YMMV

that big mountain looming in the distance makes it feel like siberia in the winter lol - it’s no joke in williamstown between November and March. At least Bowdoin is near the water, which to me always felt less smothering or trapped than I did in Williamstown

Different strokes for different folks. To many, the big mountain looming in the distance means tons of skiing, which is very appealing. Williamstown is tiny. But it has a pizza place, Chinese, pub, etc. It would admittedly likely get claustrophobic, but do a semester abroad. What good does water do you in the middle of a Maine winter except make it more cold?

People can argue that the mentality that Williams is better is dated. And they might be right. But this is the mentality of people who graduated from HS in the 90s, and guess who is hiring now? These people. You can tell them all you want that they need to change their opinions, but they don't have to do anything. From my highly competitive HS in the 90s, the only person who got into Williams turned it down for Yale. I knew plenty of kids who got rejected or waitlisted by Williams (and Amherst) who got into Ivies. People who strongly wanted Bowdoin weren't even considering Ivies as they had no chance. Bowdoin was more on par with Hamilton, Union, Colgate, etc.

Two of the smartest (and nicest, most interesting) people I knew in my top tier MBA class went to Williams. I don't think there were any Bowdoin alums. This is a ridiculously small sample size as two years later it might have been reversed. But it makes a difference.

I know things have changed. But it is hard to unwind this in people's minds.

T5 MBA program and my Williams alumni classmates were plentiful and were/are very successful. But the Bowdoin grads I know are also very successful, just all in law. I think that people from the two schools self-select in different directions when it comes to career choice and can’t be compared 1 to 1.

[Anonymous]

There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

[Anonymous]

every athlete at Williams - went into junior year of high school with an ivy target or targets, that of course wasn’t Williams. They failed to get an offer from that school(s), and had to drop down to the next best option - the best academic D3. But rest assured, they would all be elsewhere if they had an offer from any ivy, even Cornell. Whereas Bowdoin, I do believe at least half never targeted an ivy - there is def a subset of kids that feel Bowdoin is their true fit from the onset

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

[Anonymous]

I will say that Williams is extremely well regarded; elite. Bowdoin is prestigious but does not command the same respect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

Because Williams has more students overall in physics. It's going to be a very similar experience. It's not Harvey mudd.